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I ran this game today and had an issue as i predicted. Faction quests of Andoran and Silver Crusade were conflicting and the game pretty much got derailed with two Andoran players and two SC players arguing over it.
Should I be flexible enough to allow them extend the rules, such that a faction quest could carry over post-scenario? Or should I deduct a prestige point of their chronicle sheets? I know it mostly comes down to GM fiat, but I'd appreciate some guidance here.
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I would take the players aside and remind them that this is a great role playing situation and should be done as such. As a GM you can also provoke the characters too. Having Vruul outright attack them again instead of giving up and being taken alive. Die in the fight with end room. There are a great many ways to deal with it. But encourage the role playing first before GMing the solution too.
My opinion in having run this already :)
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So lets look at this subjectively.
1) Most faction missions are very tough and need a DC 20 or 25 (and sometimes 30) check to succeed.
2) Other faction missions require killing the guy that is in the way that you are going to have to fight most likely anyways. These aren't that challenging other than if the characters fail the main mission, they will also fail their faction mission (and likely be dead anyways). In this case, the difficulty for the Andorans is the fact this guy doesn't fight to the death, so they have to take him from over 5 Hit Points to unconscious or dead in one full attack action. That's the difficulty for them.
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I think that players are overly attached to the idea that they should always earn 2PP.
To me it has nothing to do with the PP, and everything to do with something very out of character. Neither Andoran or the Silver Crusade are about killing people that surrender. Season 4's Andoran missions have been well, very out of character and WTF. The Silver Crusade is very much against causing undo pain and suffering, and Andoran is all about toppling tyranny and those who use their power for evil and control of others, but both have a strong sense of divine or poetic justice, redeeming/punishing criminals, and the right to a fair trial. That's one of the things that makes Andoran different than Galt, they don't practice mob tactics and on the spot executions. Both Andoran and Silver Crusade are (as Factions) strongly Good Aligned, and have more Paladins and Lawful and Good Clerics, so it kind of strains belief that Andoran would be sent out on another "hit job" or be asked to make sure someone (anyone) dies rather than face judgement and punishment, or have the chance to be redeemed. I haven't ran or played this one yet, so I'm not sure of the specifics, <but both are tasked with rescuing LE Zarta open blasphemer, slaver, jerk, and evil-Outsider summoner, the person in the world mostly likely to be killed by either of those factions in two other scenarios>, but from my perspective it really seems like someone is trying to make Andoran lose it's appeal this seaason so that other less popular factions have a better chance of not getting the final cut.
So lets look at this subjectively.
1) Most faction missions are very tough and need a DC 20 or 25 (and sometimes 30) check to succeed.
2) Other faction missions require killing the guy that is in the way that you are going to have to fight most likely anyways. These aren't that challenging other than if the characters fail the main mission, they will also fail their faction mission (and likely be dead anyways). In this case, the difficulty for the Andorans is the fact this guy doesn't fight to the death, so they have to take him from over 5 Hit Points to unconscious or dead in one full attack action. That's the difficulty for them.
1.) Not really. A lot of them are in the DC 12-14 range and I would say that the max I've seen is maybe 25 (for mid and lower tier), and I would say that usually an 18 to lower-end 20's are the most common. Many do not require a skill check, or there are very reasonable alternatives around it, (which there should always be).
2.) In my opinion, the difficulty is purely RP and moral, and goes very much against the Faction's core beliefs and practices. I'm very open to to iinterpretations of alignment and not too strict on moral issues, but this would most definetly be a call for a Good character to swing to Neutral, and for a Paladin and most Good Cleric's (something very common to the Andoran Faction) to fall on the spot. Not for an alignment infraction, which might also happen, but for actively breaking a major taboo of their faith.
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There is an Andoran faction mission that involves hiring an assassin. There are plenty of Silver Crusade and Andoran missions calling for the death or capture of someone. Guess what's going to happen to someone captured by the Andorans?
By the way, you cannot have an alignment infraction for killing this guy. Alignment infractions for faction missions fall on the people giving the orders.
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The Andoran faction attacks its enemies from within, finding dissidents, freedom fighters, and revolutionaries among the populations of its foes and offering these allies the covert aid, equipment, funds, and intelligence they need to topple tyrants.
Missions assigned to Andoran faction members tend toward helping sympathetic groups within the other factions, though anything that shakes a tyrant’s power is a worthy cause for an Andoren to lend himself to. The leader of the Andoran faction is Major Colson Maldris, a
member of that nation’s prestigious Eagle Knights, who wields his greatsword against slavers and tyrants alike.
The youngest ever to achieve the golden eagle on his shoulders and with many victories claimed in the name of freedom, this rising star has ruffled more than a few feathers along the way.
Goal: Freedom and Democracy for All
Andoran faction members seek to spark revolution in decadent old empires and to civilize and educate the ignorant peoples of lost and unknown lands. They press for the abolition of slavery and the punishment of those who perpetrate it. They bring the torch of freedom to the world’s darkest places and banish mysticism, diabolism, and fear. A member of this faction often performs acts of sabotage and diplomacy while carrying out her duties and should be willing to bend the rules of tyrannical law in order to plant the seed of liberty, even when doing so requires employing questionable techniques.
Andoran
Freedom and democracy for all.
The young nation of Andoran threw off the shackles of aristocracy when its liege nation Cheliax adopted an official policy of diabolism after Aroden’s death, and has since established itself as the Inner Sea region’s largest democracy. Though free from the tyrannical rule of Taldor and Cheliax, Andoran hopes to see tyranny in all its forms wiped from the Inner Sea region, and its allies ever strive to increase their own presence in Absalom, which they see as the key to ending slavery and oppression’s hold on the weak and poor of Avistan and Garund.
Through the efforts of the Steel Falcon branch of Andoran’s elite military Eagle Knights, the nation aspires to advance its ideals abroad through diplomacy and battle.
Leader
Major Colson Maldris ( male human fighter 5/steel falcon 5*) would rather be out in the field, his greatsword drenched in the blood of tyrants and slavers, but the Eagle Knights have another use for him. As a member of the mystery-shrouded Grey Corsairs, Maldris served bravely aboard the warship Trident, quelling slavers’ efforts throughout the Inner Sea region. Maldris was the youngest to wear the golden eagle emblem upon his shoulders, and upon attaining the rank of captain he was reassigned to Absalom to cement Andoren ideals in the strategic city. In 4711 ar he was elevated to the rank of major for his effective recruitment and command of like-minded Pathfinders who helped propel the Andoran faction to a position of prominence within the City at the Center of the World.
*See Pathfinder Player Companion: Andoran, Spirit of Liberty.
The Andoren Pathfinder
While many Pathfinders allied with Andoran hail from the nation itself, some come from distant lands only to find their ideals in conjunction with those of the Eagle Knights. Escaped slaves, indigenous peoples oppressed by colonists, and political radicals often fall in with Andoren crowds and soon find themselves working for Maldris while traveling the world on other business. Pathfinders with experience as sailors, prowess in the wilderness, skill in both diplomacy and subterfuge, and effectiveness in battle against those enslaved by undeath will find themselves most valuable to the faction.
Gaining Fame
Pathfinders with allegiances to the Andoran faction often perform acts of diplomacy, sabotage, and proselytizing while carrying out their primary objectives for the Decemvirate. Whether providing moral support to the downtrodden, delivering messages to agents deep undercover in distant lands, or acting as a thorn in the side of slavers throughout the region, an Andoran Faction operative improves his reputation by spreading Andoren ideals wherever he goes. A member of this faction should be willing to bend the rules of tyrannical law in order to plant the seed of liberty, even when doing so requires employing questionable techniques.
". . . These heroes are examples of the price of freedom, and Andorens dedicate themselves to the idea that they’ll carry on their great work—an exportable revolution, brought peaceably, rather than the mess infesting Galt. . . . It’s important to remember that the Revolt in Andoran itself was largely bloodless, driven by merchants and other educated classes. Part of their motivation in breaking free from Cheliax, to be sure, was to free their business from the exorbitant tithes the House of Thrune demanded—but a far greater proportion of their motivation, in contrast to naysayers such as the demagogues Helmsan and Tarrizun, was to free their souls and the souls of their countrymen. Revolution through peace is the watchword now. What was once radical has become the norm, and almost all can agree that the new state of affairs is far preferable to the old. . .
Andorens’ freedoms include the right to speak their minds, the right to travel, the right to bow no head nor bend any knee except as they will, and the right to choose their leaders. Andorens take all of these rights (and others not listed here) seriously—enough so that they’ll fight to retain them. An Andoren’s duties are to spread freedom, choose their leaders, to support their country, and to live as a beacon for others on Avistan."
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I was one of the Andoran players that OP mentioned. My character's alignment is Neutral Good, and she has a few titles such as Knight Corporal.
As my Silver Crusade party members stated, attacking a surrendered enemy is not an honorable act, it's against my character's beliefs. So we agreed on sending Vruul to Andoran and let authorities judge him and do whatever they want.
I know in Golarion, things aren't black and white and they might be changed, even though I chose Andoran due to my character's background. I just don't want conflicting faction missions in Pathfinder. Yes, roleplay is always good and I prefer roleplaying over combats, but I don't want to discuss over Society's (out of game) mistakes. Similar thing happened when I played and GM'ed Blakros Matrimony.
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I came to these boards to see how others felt about the last combat and all anyone had anything to say about was faction missions that conflicted with each other and alignment infractions. Did no one have issues with their group not being able to handle an elder lightning elemental?
I had a group with:
9 rogue
9 sword/board fighter
9 1 barbarian /8 cleric (using a Glaive to dps when not healing)
7 pre-gen monk
7 pre-gen gunslinger
No one was really over the top optimized, but they weren't really having any issue throughout the entire adventure until the very final battle.
so heres the issue, elementals can't be crit or flanked. So rogue couldn't get sneak attack in, & we couldn't get any lucky crits to jump up over DR, so I had 4 characters who couldn't really damage the monster with its DR 10- & AC of 25. The one guy who could damage was the barb/cleric who was too busy trying to keep the party up because of the massive damage the elemental can do in a round. +24 to hit, means most of the characters at 9th level, I hit on a 2. and the one case where I would say they came unprepared is no one had anything to give resist energy or protection from energy, so they were all taking the full 4d8+8 twice a round. 2d8 of it was electricity, so they couldn't have negated all the dmg, but it would have helped to make it more manageable for the healer if they had brought some sort of energy protection.
So I know that if they had any kind of class that could deal elemental dmg that they would have killed it faster, but how was a party such as this supposed to be able to defeat this monster? My players were super frustrated and I couldn't help but agree with their feelings on the matter.
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It was an unfortunate mix w/ so many characters relying on Sneak or multiple small attacks.
Rogue: Minimal use
Sword & Board: Reasonable offense, but defensive nature of minimal use
Barb/Cleric: Best case w/ THW
Monk: Minimal use
Gunslinger: Minimal use
One caster is an issue.
One THW warrior is another.
And no Communal Resist Energy with all that electricity zipping about?
And they were playing up, right? And with five?
This is like the Perfect Storm of mismatches.
(As compared to the party that casts "Dismissal" and sighs with relief.)
Sidenote: Sword & Board hopefully swapped to two-handed, even with a one-handed weapon.
I ran a very strong party through this and beat them up badly. I don't think anybody went down though, and nobody died. Many were one hit from death, but they did a smart job of splitting the elemental's attention and covering for each other.
My favorite two moments of fright were rolling max damage on one of the first attacks so all eyes widened in terror. And then when a guy used boosts to get to an AC in the mid-30s for a round and says, "I don't think you hit me." "37?" "37!"
So, yeah, it's a tough, tough battle, and your party's lack of buffing options hurt as well.
I wouldn't fault the scenario, nor the players.
Cheers.