I have been pondering magic lately at the core of Pathfinder I understand that the class system has to be Balanced. so even if you are in a small room you can somehow jump out of the way of a ball of fire going off.
is there ever a reason not to get a reflex save? what if you are denied your dex bonus to AC? do you still get reflex saves?
I have been reading the Last book of the wheel of time and realize just how powerful being a magic user is.
there is an instance in the book where a man Is unaware of a Channeler behind him. So she uses a weave to stop his heart in pathfinder I am sure there is a similar spell but to my understanding this bad guy who is for all intensive purposes considered "flat footed and unable to act" would automatically get a save by RAW correct?
has any body else thought that automatic saving throws kind of ruin in some situations the fun of being able to weave magic?
do some DM's rule differently for saving throws?
just my 2 cents with the the whole magic system. I know that we have to have some balance otherwise all characters would play wizards.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I never, ever deny a saving throw. Back in the early days of D&D, saving throws weren't just jumping out of the way or a defense to overcome. They were the last saving grace for a PC's survival when realism and logic said the PC should bite it. I treat them the same way now and, thus, never override them when they occur.
I have been pondering magic lately at the core of Pathfinder I understand that the class system has to be Balanced. so even if you are in a small room you can somehow jump out of the way of a ball of fire going off.
is there ever a reason not to get a reflex save? what if you are denied your dex bonus to AC? do you still get reflex saves?
Nope.
Even when helpless (you have a Dex of 0 and -5 penalty to Reflex saves) you still roll, though you are denied Evasion.So no, nothing prevents reflex (though circumstances may give penalties).
When fireball wasn't cast in such a way that you would not be affected by it.
do you think the saving throw System makes magic less powerful?
is there such a thing has a magic sneak attack? or can you get negatives to the saving throws?
why should I get a save against a person who can make fire shoot out of their hands with there mind?
do you think the saving throw System makes magic less powerful?
It had better.
is there such a thing has a magic sneak attack? or can you get negatives to the saving throws?
Weapon-like spells can sneak attack. But I wouldn't impose penalties to saving throws. PF already goes too far in that direction by basing the save DC on too many factors the caster can control.
why should I get a save against a person who can make fire shoot out of their hands with there mind?
Because if we followed that logic and included things like being turned to stone by a medusae, killed by venomous snakes, and a whole host of things - the game would suck.
I agree it would be hard, and we have to have balance. but I wonder what it would be like having a non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier.
Bill have you ever messed around with it?
I like to think of fantasy has sword and sorcery types where wizards and sorcery is dark and mysterious and deadly.
In deeper darkness?
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
do you think the saving throw System makes magic less powerful?
Nope.
why should I get a save against a person who can make fire shoot out of their hands with there mind?
Why should you get hit points against a person sticking a sword through your neck?
I like to think of fantasy has sword and sorcery types where wizards and sorcery is dark and mysterious and deadly.
It certainly does have that. You may have to adjust your game to achieve that however.
I agree it would be hard, and we have to have balance. but I wonder what it would be like having a non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier.
Bill have you ever messed around with it?
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about a "non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier" so I can't say if I've ever messed around with it or not.
|
|
Channeling in the Wheel of Time series is ridiculously over-powered. Up against a melee character? Air wrapping around them is a very simple weave that is pretty much indefinite hold monster no save not mind-affecting. There is nothing that can beat a channeler except a sneak attack or another channeler. Pathfinder allows other classes to have a chance. I'm planning a Wheel of Time setting game for my group soon but I will use standard Pathfinder rules (with some new spells to represent weaves) simply because If I were to remake it to the setting the melee characters would be outclassed in seconds. As they're always saying in the books, why use a sword when you can stop their heart with no save?
do you think the saving throw System makes magic less powerful?
Yes, and that's a very very good thing.
is there such a thing has a magic sneak attack? or can you get negatives to the saving throws?
Yes, there are two ways to get magic sneak attacks - the normal way (use a spell like Shocking Grasp while you're flanking, or use a spell like Acid Splash within 30 ft. of a flat-footed opponent), and the difficult way (take 10 levels of Arcane Trickster and get sneak damage against flat-footed opponents with all spell, not just those that have attack rolls.
why should I get a save against a person who can make fire shoot out of their hands with there mind?
Because you can dodge out of the way, and they might miss you. The DC tells you how likely it is that they just miss you, and your save bonus tells you how likely it is that you dodge.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about a "non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier" so I can't say if I've ever messed around with it or not.I agree it would be hard, and we have to have balance. but I wonder what it would be like having a non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier.
Bill have you ever messed around with it?
a bbeg who didn't get saving throws for his spells. so he cats a fireball no save is given to you. you just take the 6d6 damage. but he doesn't get a con modifier. so he is easy to kill.
I do not really mess around with home brew stuff i was wondering if any body else has.
I am just thinking out loud.
I think a melee fighter should be no match for a wizard of the same level.
but I dotn think PF is the system that best represents that.
|
|
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about a "non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier" so I can't say if I've ever messed around with it or not.I agree it would be hard, and we have to have balance. but I wonder what it would be like having a non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier.
Bill have you ever messed around with it?
a bbeg who didn't get saving throws for his spells. so he cats a fireball no save is given to you. you just take the 6d6 damage. but he doesn't get a con modifier. so he is easy to kill.
I do not really mess around with home brew stuff i was wondering if any body else has.
I am just thinking out loud.
I think a melee fighter should be no match for a wizard of the same level.
but I dotn think PF is the system that best represents that.
I this were the case it'd be the pinnacle of rocket tag. Instead of long, drawn out battles with the goal of having an awesome duel, which most people want, high level PF is more who goes first and does more damage fastest. With the huge buff to evocation, yet a loss to health, whoever goes first kills the other.
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about a "non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier" so I can't say if I've ever messed around with it or not.I think he's saying make your enemy caster squishier but removing all saving throws from blaster spells.
I hope to high heaven he aint talking about removing saving throws from things like charm or dominate. That's absolutely ridiculous.
I agree if we want to keep the game balanced but why should a fighter have a chance to resist a dominate or charm person? it is magic it is a explainable intangible force that he cant see or control. Now if he was facing another fighter then yeah. I think that modern Rpgs have reduced magic to almost a science so it is predictable and easy to fight against. I am not sure if I like that feeling personally. I think if some dude in a bathrobe and a pointy hat started to shoot fire out of his hands while walking down my street would be pretty scary I wouldn't have a clue how to fight him except stab him in the back. while I hope he doesn't see me.
Channeling in the Wheel of Time series is ridiculously over-powered. Up against a melee character? Air wrapping around them is a very simple weave that is pretty much indefinite hold monster no save not mind-affecting. There is nothing that can beat a channeler except a sneak attack or another channeler. Pathfinder allows other classes to have a chance. I'm planning a Wheel of Time setting game for my group soon but I will use standard Pathfinder rules (with some new spells to represent weaves) simply because If I were to remake it to the setting the melee characters would be outclassed in seconds. As they're always saying in the books, why use a sword when you can stop their heart with no save?
this is what I am talking about. in PF if I cast hold person or the like the fighter gets a save why? besides game balance it makes no sense thematically to me. it is magic. we use the saying "it magic" to explain the un-explainable. I dont think with out prior magic training you should get a savings throw.
Again let me say this is just my musings. and how I view the game not every body will agree.
|
|
I agree if we want to keep the game balanced but why should a fighter have a chance to resist a dominate or charm person? it is magic it is a explainable intangible force that he cant see or control. Now if he was facing another fighter then yeah. I think that modern Rpgs have reduced magic to almost a science so it is predictable and easy to fight against. I am not sure if I like that feeling personally. I think if some dude in a bathrobe and a pointy hat started to shoot fire out of his hands while walking down my street would be pretty scary I wouldn't have a clue how to fight him except stab him in the back. while I hope he doesn't see me.I'm not even sure what you're trying to say about a "non saving throw BBEG. but he didn't get his con modifier" so I can't say if I've ever messed around with it or not.I think he's saying make your enemy caster squishier but removing all saving throws from blaster spells.
I hope to high heaven he aint talking about removing saving throws from things like charm or dominate. That's absolutely ridiculous.
In response to your dominate example, there are situations in the book where this happens.
I have been reading the Last book of the wheel of time and realize just how powerful being a magic user is. There is an instance in the book where a man Is unaware of a Channeler behind him. So she uses a weave to stop his heart in pathfinder I am sure there is a similar spell but to my understanding this bad guy who is for all intensive purposes considered "flat footed and unable to act" would automatically get a save by RAW correct?
You can not compare Wheel of Time (WoT) to Pathfinder. The way Channeling works in those books is vastly different from magic in Pathfinder.
For example, if Rand (the main hero) was to be cut off from the source so he couldnt channel. Some little apprentice could wrap him up in a weave of Air and nothing he could do about it. They get no saves, they have to use their weaves to counter act enemy weaves.
In PF if I cast hold person or the like the fighter gets a save why? besides game balance it makes no sense thematically to me. it is magic. we use the saying "it magic" to explain the un-explainable. I dont think with out prior magic training you should get a savings throw.
Yes, this isnt a book. Its a game, it needs some balance. I believe your love of this book has colored your view of the subject. Game are not fun if they are not somewhat fair. You dont play basketball vs a 5 year old for fun. If you want to change it in a home game, take away saves and make the experience for gaining a level in casting to be x10 the amount. That would help balance it. But for it to be like WoT you would also need a better method of countering spells.
Channeling in the Wheel of Time series is ridiculously over-powered. Up against a melee character? Air wrapping around them is a very simple weave that is pretty much indefinite hold monster no save not mind-affecting. There is nothing that can beat a channeler except a sneak attack or another channeler. Pathfinder allows other classes to have a chance. I'm planning a Wheel of Time setting game for my group soon but I will use standard Pathfinder rules (with some new spells to represent weaves) simply because If I were to remake it to the setting the melee characters would be outclassed in seconds. As they're always saying in the books, why use a sword when you can stop their heart with no save?this is what I am talking about. in PF if I cast hold person or the like the fighter gets a save why? besides game balance it makes no sense thematically to me. it is magic. we use the saying "it magic" to explain the un-explainable. I dont think with out prior magic training you should get a savings throw.You get a saving throw because... *drum roll* It's magic!
Seriously. In Pathfinder, magic can be resisted by mental will, physical fortitude, or swift deftness. It doesn't need a reason, it just can, because that's how this kind of magic works.
I see what you did there.
look at it this way for hold person, the magic is invasive and noticable to the character being affected even without prior magical training. Because of that the fighter gets a chance to throw everything he is against that so that he won't just stop moving allowing whatever is going on around him to kill him without a fight.
For the fireball that was talked about early in the thread, it's hard to be unaware to an explosion of fire happening within 20 feet of you. and the save isn't just getting out of the way, it's throwing your cloak up over your head and arms so that it gets set on fire instead of you and then putting that out quickly.
If you can get past the stigma that is the drizzit and read some forgotten realms novels by salvatore there are plenty of examples like this. Different settings use different magic and descriptions. But you could argue anything mind affecting the target feels and therefore gets at least one opportunity to fight back against the spell taking over his body or putting him to sleep or whatever.
Asta
PSY
I agree if we want to keep the game balanced but why should a fighter have a chance to resist a dominate or charm person? it is magic it is a explainable intangible force that he cant see or control. Now if he was facing another fighter then yeah. I think that modern Rpgs have reduced magic to almost a science so it is predictable and easy to fight against. I am not sure if I like that feeling personally. I think if some dude in a bathrobe and a pointy hat started to shoot fire out of his hands while walking down my street would be pretty scary I wouldn't have a clue how to fight him except stab him in the back. while I hope he doesn't see me.Yeah I'm leaving this thread before I get angry. Only thing I'm going to say is if you intend to remove character's ways to defend against mind controlling effects, you're basically removing any reason to play anyone whose not a full caster ever. You might as well turn the barbarian, fighter, rogue, and even the paladin and ranger into npc classes for all the good you'll do.
Frankly in terms of a balanced system this is literally the dumbest idea i've heard in a long time. Still, your game you play it the way you want. I'm leaving before I say something I'll regret.
not trying to piss you off I dont think it will be balancing at all. it would have uber casters like say NEX or thassolinia. but wizards would be incredibly easy to kill. I am not even saying I am going to do this. I am just exploring the though process via the internet because my wifes eyes go slack when I explain this stuff to her.
Thematically, casters aren't infalliable. For the same reason a fighter doesn't have a 100% chance to hit the wizard with his sword, the wizard doesn't have a 100% chance of hitting the fighter with a spell. Wizards are not gods, they are students, and they don't fully understand all the forces they are activating. Sometimes, they make mistakes, just like a math professor sometimes makes an arithmetic error.
Game wise, I completely agree with Thomas. I would absolutely never play your game, ever, if you ruled saving throws don't exist. Not even as a caster. If someone can dominate me and I get no defense against it, I'd roll up my character sheet and shove it up your you-know-where.
Also consider this - everyone's mind is different, why would the exact same spell have a 100% chance to work against totally different mental structures? In a war, your plan of attack will be based on the defenses your opponent had set up - there's no one tactic that bypasses every defense. It's exactly the same for magic - the mental attack will need to adapt to get around the mental defenses of the subject.
Actually what you are describing sounds like Ars Magica.
Basically everyone plays a Wizard. Fighter, Rangers, Rogues, etc. are "Grogs", mundanes that have no chance against a caster. Each Wizard gets a few grogs that follow him around and stand in the way of danger. It is pretty much assumed that you will lose a few grogs during and adventure. You just hire more afterwards.
So a game like you describe is playable, but the balance comes in the fact that everyone plays a caster, or a channeler if you prefer.
Why in the world would a fighter, or anyone for that matter, NOT get a save? Epic fantasy is full of moments where the evil magic user casts about his power entangling, holding, freezing, or otherwise decimating the heros aligned against him... save that one lone warrior who shrugs off the spell and runs him through.
Whith what you are describing the hero never wins... ever.
Unless said hero is also a spell caster and manages to go first.
that's why you don't just stroll into the wizards tower pull your sword out and say prepare to die fiend! you have to plan and enlist the help of other spell casters to aid you.
that's why you don't just stroll into the wizards tower pull your sword out and say prepare to die fiend! you have to plan and enlist the help of other spell casters to aid you.Why in the world would a fighter, or anyone for that matter, NOT get a save? Epic fantasy is full of moments where the evil magic user casts about his power entangling, holding, freezing, or otherwise decimating the heros aligned against him... save that one lone warrior who shrugs off the spell and runs him through.
Whith what you are describing the hero never wins... ever.
Unless said hero is also a spell caster and manages to go first.
In your system, whichever wizard goes first AUTOMATICALLY WINS. Cast Hideous Laughter or Stinking Cloud. Boom. Fight is over after 1 turn, it doesn't even go for a full round.
If you want your magic system to be all Wild-West style quick-draw duels where whoever can go first wins in one shot, then go ahead and play that way. I think that sounds incredibly frustrating and boring - I'd rather have battles that are longer than one action.
|
It depends if you want to go with the RAI or RAW, in both cases you always get a save. Or if you want to make your game a bit more "simulationist", I go for the later. In which case if the person is bound, held or otherwise unable to move they wouldn't get a save. Or if they was in a enclosed space and the size of the fireball would take up the whole space.
But really go with what you are your group like.
|
|
that's why you don't just stroll into the wizards tower pull your sword out and say prepare to die fiend! you have to plan and enlist the help of other spell casters to aid you.Why in the world would a fighter, or anyone for that matter, NOT get a save? Epic fantasy is full of moments where the evil magic user casts about his power entangling, holding, freezing, or otherwise decimating the heros aligned against him... save that one lone warrior who shrugs off the spell and runs him through.
Whith what you are describing the hero never wins... ever.
Unless said hero is also a spell caster and manages to go first.
I'm going to focus on the enlist spell casters to help you. That means that no matter what, if you want to play a fighter, you will fail. You will have to spend your gold to hire some spellcaster to do the job simply because the game is unbalanced. Your proposed idea follows one principle: the wizard is all powerful. There is no chance for a fighter to succeed in your world.
You say the fighter would have to plan an ambush etc. A fighter does not have stealth as a class skill.
The only way you could get this to work is if all players agreed to be spellcasters. And in the case that does succeed, I am going to tell you that all of them will take improved initiative and reactionary. Because your world's casters are so squishy, whoever goes first kills the other with a no-save spell.
|
|
You know I said I wouldn't come back. Then I realized something you missed.
Book 6 or 7 when Siuan gets her powers back. She has difficulty lifting logain and says that beforehand she could lift 2 men with her powers. We all realize this means she's weaker. What you seem to have missed is the implications here.
Siuan and the channelers lift people by means of the same air bonds they use to hold people. If there is an inherent limit to the amount they can lift, there is an inherent limit to the strength of their bonds. It can only withstand so much force (i.e. weight here) that they can overcome. It never came up because I doubt anyone in the wheel of time has over an 18 strength. However, if what is suggested is true and there are limits to the strengths of the bonds they can conjure, then someone who is significantly strong enough (i.e. 30 strength or so) should be able to snap said bonds from sheer force.
By the time a character has a 30 strength the casters will have compulsion. And according to the OP, Compulsion would always work in his game (although I referenced different cases proving diffferently. BTW it's book 6 where Nynaeve Heals her) so you break it? You're mine now. Also, hideous laughter would be the most powerful spell in the game. You do nothing for X level rounds.
In the case of a Fireball, the only time I would consider not giving the character a save, is if the Fireball prematurely detonated because it hit the character.
Fireball
School evocation [fire]; Level sorcerer/wizard 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a ball of bat guano and sulfur)
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Reflex half; Spell Resistance yes
A fireball spell generates a searing explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. An early impact results in an early detonation. If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.
And I would allow the caster to target an opponent to get that effect. Creatures vulnerable to fire would still get a save, but it would be against the extra damage.
WoT characters never get saves, because they are not characters in a D&D game, they are characters in a book. The author does not roll dice and consults stats to determine who resists magic, he fiats it.
No i agree with you Every thing I read and see I always try to translate to "dungeons and dragons rules"