So I'm assembling a spiked chain wielding tripper at the request of my GM, cause he thought it'd be neat. I decided to go dex-based for the AoO's, and so now I have a question, and I'll try to include all the relevant source material.
Normally, a Two-Handed attack with a spiked chain adds 1.5 times strength, as it's a two-handed weapon. Sounds good.
Overhand Chop and Backswing say you add 2x strength when you use their respective actions.
Overhand Chop (Ex)
At 3rd level, when a two-handed fighter makes a single attack (with the attack action or a charge) with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls.
This ability replaces Armor Training 1.
Backswing (Ex)
At 7th level, when a two-handed fighter makes a full-attack with a two-handed weapon, he adds double his Strength bonus on damage rolls for all attacks after the first.
This ability replaces Armor Training 2.
The Agile weapon property lets you add DEX to damage, but you don't get the 1.5x modifier for two-handers. Also fine.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
So thats all fine and dandy. My question here is, given that I'm going with DEX, which of the following three interpretations is correct? Or if they are all wrong, what is the right answer? Help me out.
Idea 1:
Attacks deal 1x DEX from Agile, plus 2x STR from OC or Backswing eg: STR 12 and DEX 18 would net you 2x1+1x4=6 damage
Idea 2: DEX acts in place of STR for damage, so you just get the stated 2xSTR, but STR = DEX so 2x DEX, or 2x4=8 damage for the above stats.
Idea 3: The two-handed fighter abilities were built assuming you'd be getting 1.5xSTR to damage, so you could RAI the change to STR damage as +0.5x instead of goes to 2x in all cases. This would get you then DEX+1/2 DEX or 1.5xDEX... or 1.5x4=6 damage in the above scenario.
thoughts?
You would not get both the STR and DEX modifiers.
Agile says you "can choose to apply dex mod in place of str mod". That means, if you choose to do dex damage, you don't get ANY modifier from OC or Backswing because those specifically modify the STR modifier that you gave up.
So, you get the choice on an Agile Weapon. 1 x DEX at all times or 1 X STR (plus 1.5 X STR for 2-handers, and 2 x STR for OC/Backswing).
EITHER OR, not both.
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All the interpretations are wrong, but nice wishful thinking.
The correct answer is that you'd deal x1 Dex mod only, and the Two-Handed Fighter abilities would do nothing useful to you.
The Agile property specifically replaces your Strength bonus, so the things that alter your Strength bonus do nothing. Then it says that the damage does not increase for using a two-hander. So, yeah, it's just +Dex.
Pro-Tip: Agile, and Finesse in general, is not a great idea for two-handers.
Yeah that seems like the simplest interpretation on the face of it, but the reason I asked for clarification is that in this thread The argument was that the devs clearly did not mean you get your normal damage plus 2x STR, because then you'd be getting 3.5x STR if you just "Add 2x STR to damage". The sane people in that thread (not that Ravingdork doesn't make my day on a regular basis) were intuiting that the ability was designed to take you from 1.5x STR to 2x STR. So going DEX + 2x STR seems like the same argument as Ravingdork used to try to get 1.5xSTR +2x STR, which is almost assuredly not correct.
EDIT: Ninja'd --this was in response to Seranov.
The trouble I'm having with all the interpretations is the ambiguity in the ability wording. Agile lets you replace 1.5xSTR to damage with 1xDEX to damage, but I don't see why that invalidates an ability which just says 'add double your strength bonus to damage'.
Out of curiosity, are there any other archetypes better suited to combat maneuvers for the Fighter? The juicy of Two-hander was the free trip on piledriver, I didn't really care about the damage on OC and backswing, was just confused
That thread doesn't matter. What matters is the rules and what the RAW states. Don't pay attention to random people's interpretations. People always try to read into rules to make it apply to them and bend/force the semantics to their will.
if Agile states that you can choose, then you can choose from the following options:
1 x DEX OR
1 x STR (1.5 STR for 2H, 2xSTR for OC/BH)
BUT NOT BOTH. NEVER BOTH.
if Agile states it REPLACES your modifier, you don't get the choice at all and you get 1 x DEX no matter what.
I agree with mlp, Agile and Finesse are best suited for 1H, they do not function as advertised with 2H weapons.
The trouble I'm having with all the interpretations is the ambiguity in the ability wording. Agile lets you replace 1.5xSTR to damage with 1xDEX to damage, but I don't see why that invalidates an ability which just says 'add double your strength bonus to damage'.
Because of common sense and the English language. It says it adds x2 Str damage and the obvious RAI is that it replaces the x1.5.
However, even if you got both x2 and x1.5, Strength bonuses don't stack with themselves. The devs have said as much when other cases of attribute mod stacking came up.
The Agile weapon property lets you replace your Strength mod with your Dex mod. It doesn't say that it replaces just one instance of your Strength modifier--it replaces all your bonus strength damage. It doesn't multiply because it says as much.
You just get x1 Dex. Ok, yes you could choose x2 Str instead, but why would you when your Dex is more than double your Str.
Out of curiosity, are there any other archetypes better suited to combat maneuvers for the Fighter? The juicy of Two-hander was the free trip on piledriver, I didn't really care about the damage on OC and backswing, was just confused
I have literally never heard of anyone being a two-handed fighter for the maneuver bonuses.
I would say Lore Warden is almost certainly the go-to maneuver archetype, and fits a Finesse fighter far better in general.
But I should also warn you--CMD scales much faster than your CMB. It's nearly impossible to keep it up and reliably trip later enemies.
Spiked Chain builds were all the rage in 3.5, but in Pathfinder, they're not so hot.
The trouble I'm having with all the interpretations is the ambiguity in the ability wording. Agile lets you replace 1.5xSTR to damage with 1xDEX to damage, but I don't see why that invalidates an ability which just says 'add double your strength bonus to damage'.
Out of curiosity, are there any other archetypes better suited to combat maneuvers for the Fighter? The juicy of Two-hander was the free trip on piledriver, I didn't really care about the damage on OC and backswing, was just confused
Ok, let me break this down into simpler terms, because the semantics are a bit fuzzy.
Normal spiked chain = 1.5 x STR damage (or 2xdamage with OC/BH type thing)
Agile Spiked Chain = 1 x DEX damage (specifically says no increase for 2H weapon)
Normal OC/BH = 2 x STR damage instead of the normal 1.5 x STR damage (the bonuses do not stack, they overlap because they're of the same type)
Agile OC/BH using STR = 2 x STR damage
Agile OC/BH using DEX = 1 x DEX damage
NOTE: The above assumes the original post is word-for-word quote on the Agile Weapon property, where it says " A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with the weapon in place of her Strength modifier."
Choose means you get one OR the other. Not both.
Yeah after all this effort, I took mplindustries' advice and rebuilt the character as a STR-based loremaster with enough DEX to still make Combat reflexes a good time, and I'd say it turned out better. No free trip from lvl 11 two-hander ability, but +CMB/CMD and a couple extra skills made it better overall I think. Thanks for all the clarifications.