Polymorph Any Object, yet again!

[Mikhail]

Hello everyone.

First problem - my player's 14th level character (elf barb 2/fighter 12) fall in love with Polymorph Any Object spell. He wants to permanently change himself into gray render/girallon (not sure which one yet) as per Beast Shape IV spell.

Changed Subject Is…
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) - Increase to Duration Factor +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) - Increase to Duration Factor +2
Same or lower Intelligence - Increase to Duration Factor +2

All seem valid to me, duration factor 9 = duration permanent. Any objections?

Now, second problem - he wants his magic armor and magic shield/sword to be enlarged to fit him in his new form. There is clause in Permanency: "In addition to personal use, permanency can be used to make the following spells permanent on yourself, another creature, or an object (as appropriate)" - and on the list of spells we have Enlarge person.

Should I let him spend 2.500gp per object enlarged, or is it not possible and he needs them specifically crafted to suit his new, monster form?

[sunbeam]

Pretend that your players are actual people in a world where magic works.

It is possible for him to do this, become a gray render or girallon.

I mean, who exactly would want to do that? Is he going to don a hat of disguise when he goes to the tavern? Or is he going to just wave all four arms when he goes to meet the king?

Walking down the street in a major city, he would be a target for any other adventurer on sight (they aren't prone to ask questions before they attack).

I understand mechanically why he might want to do that, but it seems like a bad idea even if you are a min maxer.

[Danny Kessler]

What sunbeam said. He'll get a boost to combat power from this, but he won't be welcome in any towns or settlements, and he won't be welcome in big cities either unless they are so cosmopolitan that they're accustomed to monstrous visitors. These places probably won't ask too many questions before they start to ply him with pointy objects. Sure, he can take these guards blindfolded, but then what? If he kills a bunch of guards he's "the monster that attacked Riverton" and the local authorities are likely to seek more powerful help in dispatching him, perhaps hiring a group of deadly adventurers...

In short, this may be rules-legal, but it has way too many downsides for all but the most single-minded munchkins, once they've thought it through. I mean, where will he be able to spend his GOLD?

[Mikhail]

Few more facts:
- we are playing in Forgotten Realms
- in the middle of campaign City of the Spider Queen (deep in the Underdark)
- small party (2 regular players + 2 more playing only half the time maximum), so we die often
- yes, he wears Hat of Disguise all the time

I only wanted to know if polymorphing permamently and enlarging his weapons/armor was legit, with the rest - I can deal myself, thank you for your help.

[Cinabre]

I would say no to the enlarge trick, because it's Enlarge person (the target is one "humanoid creature"), yes the equipment worn increase in size too but only when worn. Moreover gray render/girallon and elves don't have the same morphology so the armor will feel awkward and missing 2 arms.

Polymorphing would be permanent but dispelable, make sure to warn your player that every drow cleric will make him come back to his original form (and tear him apart because he is an elf).

[VRMH]

The polymorph is legit, per the RAW. Silly, but legit. If you want to rule against it though, you could argue that a Magical Beast isn't an actual mammal.
Also: be aware that both critters are carnivorous, so the PC's dietary requirements will change.

[ShoulderPatch]

Personally I never recommend larger then Med size as the norm because of issues with tight hallways and flimsy walkway, but this is the Rules and not General Discussion or Advice forum, so I don't think it's right to soapbox here and tell people how to play their game, so let me give my 10 copper on just your questions while telling your player good luck with the unique challenges he should face.

On your first rules question, it looks legit.

On your second rules question, I don't think the wording of Permanency allows you to get around the wording on Enlarge Person of "One Humanoid Creature" so no, I don't think it works that way. I was under the impression Permanency required you to meet BOTH requirements (Permanency, and the spell being effected by it) to work, not just Permanency. I don't think the (as appropriate) in the wording would be needed if you weren't still having to adhere to the original spells wording as well. It's telling you as appropriate, but it wouldn't be appropriate to use enlarge person on an object given it's target wording.
So, he's going to need to specifically get them modified... and they won't be useful if he's forcibly transformed back to his normal form.

Edit: I know some games have the "magic armor conforms to it's user" norm, but offhand I don't think PF (or 3.5/3.0/2/1stEdAdaD before it) conforms to that view.

[Mikhail]

SRD wrote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

What abilities will elf lose? (elf --> gray render).

After transformation will he retain from his original race only his speed, weapon familiarity and languages known?
What about human? (human --> girallon)

[james maissen]

Mikhail wrote:

Hello everyone.

All seem valid to me, duration factor 9 = duration permanent. Any objections?

Now, second problem - he wants his magic armor and magic shield/sword to be enlarged to fit him in his new form.

First, no problem that's the main use of the spell.

Second, certainly not. He's out of luck. He can get new magic armor/shield sized appropriately (and modified for multiple arms) but should his PaO be dispelled he'll find that large armor falling off him..

No reason not to let him do this. Have NPCs of course react appropriately, likely considering him some form of companion creature to the party until shown otherwise.

-James

[VRMH]

james maissen wrote:

Have NPCs of course react appropriately, likely considering him some form of companion creature to the party until shown otherwise.

The Girallon is effectively an animal anyway, with an INT of 2 and no listed language.

[Mikhail]

SRD wrote:

While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form.

Third problem:

What abilities will lose an elf polymorphed into girallon?
After transformation will he lose elven immunities and elven magic in addition to losing low-light vision and keen senses?
Will human polymorphed into girallon lose his bonus feat and skilled?

Fourth problem:
Girallon has 4 arms, could he fight with two-handed weapon and a shield without problems?
What about fighting with two two-handed weapons, is that even possible?

[Mikhail]

SRD wrote:

If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately (see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes), changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.

SRD wrote:

Elemental Body II:

This spell functions as elemental body I, except that it also allows you to assume the form of a Medium air, earth, fire, or water elemental. The abilities you gain depend upon the elemental. (...)

Earth elemental: As elemental body I except that you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength and a +5 natural armor bonus. (...)

Fifth problem:

So, if human druid changes herself into medium earth elemental, does she get +4 size bonus to Strenght?
If the answer is yes, then polymorphing someone from human into human (as per Alter Self spell) gives them +2 size bonus to Strenght.
Is that correct? I am very confused right now. :s

My third problem (above) is still actual:
What extraordinary abilities are lost when human polymorphs (via Wild Shape, Alter Self etc) into something else?