So far we know that there will be 11 archetypes to correspond with the 11 core classes, as well as other archetypes to fill other roles, such as crafting.
I want to know how many of these "other" archetypes there will be and how they will function
I want to see what the developers have in store for the 11 core archetypes- even just a few cool ideas or sneak peaks.
By now we know how time works, we know how contracts work, we've been following the middle ware drama, we know kickstarter is over. I'd like to see more big picture blogs and less small detail stuff- which is also great, but I feel like the fans are totally in the dark about such important things as what combat will be like.
Goblin Squad Member
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So far we know that there will be 11 archetypes to correspond with the 11 core classes, as well as other archetypes to fill other roles, such as crafting.
I want to know how many of these "other" archetypes there will be and how they will function
I want to see what the developers have in store for the 11 core archetypes- even just a few cool ideas or sneak peaks.
By now we know how time works, we know how contracts work, we've been following the middle ware drama, we know kickstarter is over. I'd like to see more big picture blogs and less small detail stuff- which is also great, but I feel like the fans are totally in the dark about such important things as what combat will be like.
That is probably because they don't know exactly what combat will look like yet. They have a few ideas, but are working on implementing them and finding all the bugs in their plans. Since combat is such a core part of the game, it is also the most complex, thus requiring more time to plan, and then announce.
That is probably because they don't know exactly what combat will look like yet. They have a few ideas, but are working on implementing them and finding all the bugs in their plans. Since combat is such a core part of the game, it is also the most complex, thus requiring more time to plan, and then announce.
True, but there are some areas where speculation is a little more clear: For example, Ryan Dancy has stated that stealth will probably just be an invisibility buff. They could probably put out a rogue sneak peak to explain just what this means for a rogue in game, and how stealth could work. Like any other blog, they wouldn't have to write anything that couldn't be subject to change.
A druid sneak peak would also be awesome, clarifying some questions about animal companions and wild shape: Two wild cards that could go anywhere. Will animal companions exist in PFO? Will wild shape be limited to one or a few pre-arranged animals, or can you turn into anything you've seen? Will animal companion choices be climate sensitive?
So I do think there are ideas to riff on.
RESPOND
Asking nicely might help you get what you want. Being upset and demanding doesn't help things at all.
I disagree.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By now we know how time works, we know how contracts work, we've been following the middle ware drama, we know kickstarter is over. I'd like to see more big picture blogs and less small detail stuff- which is also great, but I feel like the fans are totally in the dark about such important things as what combat will be like.
Big Picture = High Level Topics:
eg Dev, Tech, Business Plan, pricing, IP
eg Sandbox vs Themepark
eg Simulated vs Virtual Economy
eg Player Interactions: PvE & PvP: {Dungeons, Contracts, Combat, Crafting, Settlements etc}
eg Time, Death, Community, Map
I think combat fits in a deeper category and so is more granular level of detail. Probably can't usefully flesh out combat atm?? Secondly it's the sort of thing they can show not tell or at least best tell when they can show eg choose and code Engine!, Design, Iterate, Test - repeat ad nauseum -> demo to people in a good state - finally.
Some suggestions for skills would be v interesting to discuss. I'd like to see skills that are more than just combat skills eg Ranger/Druid -> Disguise as Animal :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to see skills that are more than just combat skills eg Ranger/Druid -> Disguise as Animal :)That would NEVER work, I alone can't count how many "critters" I have killed in WoW. :P
That's a truism of mmorpgs. ;) Maybe there can be ubiquitous critters of bunnies, cats with "run away animations"/skill so you get attacked and looks like a normal critter scuttling off... only to return later. Animation have to be typically "act like an AI" jaunty movements and stop starts to blend in :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've suggested it before, but I think it would be absolutely fantastic for Player Characters to actively try to appear to be NPCs, and not have the game give them away.
Of course, I'm not even sure we'll ever see many NPCs walking around in PFO... Oh, there's still so much to learn :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to here more about the classes and how they have been implimented before talking about archtypes.
The Archetypes are the Classes.
From Your Pathfinder Online Character:
These are the 11 basic development paths, which we refer to as archetypes. The key to each archtype is a skill tree that encourages characters to train a skill that is directly linked to their development in that archetype, in addition to many other skills.
- Barbarians—masters of rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know.
- Bards—masters of inspiration. These characters capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever—greater daring.
- Clerics—masters of divine power. These characters' true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
- Druids—masters of nature empathy. Allies to beasts and manipulators of nature, these often misunderstood protectors of the wild strive to shield their lands from all who would threaten them.
- Fighters—masters of weapons. Lords of the battlefield, these characters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons.
- Monks—masters of ki power. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade.
- Paladins—masters of smiting evil. These noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.
- Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast, and monster alike, gaining insight into the way of the predator.
- Rogues—masters of stealth. Ever just one step ahead of danger, these characters bank on their cunning, skill, and charm to bend fate to their favor.
- Sorcerers—masters of blood magic. Scions of innately magical bloodlines, the chosen of deities, the spawn of monsters, pawns of fate and destiny, or simply flukes of fickle magic, these characters look within themselves for arcane prowess and draw forth might few mortals can imagine.
- Wizards—masters of hermetic magic. These shrewd magic-users seek, collect, and covet esoteric knowledge, drawing on cultic arts to work wonders beyond the abilities of mere mortals.
I would like to here more about the classes and how they have been implimented before talking about archtypes.The Archetypes are the Classes.
From Your Pathfinder Online Character:
These are the 11 basic development paths, which we refer to as archetypes. The key to each archtype is a skill tree that encourages characters to train a skill that is directly linked to their development in that archetype, in addition to many other skills....
- Barbarians—masters of rage. In the ways of their people, in the fury of their passion, in the howl of battle, conflict is all these brutal souls know.
- Bards—masters of inspiration. These characters capably confuse and confound their foes while inspiring their allies to ever—greater daring.
- Clerics—masters of divine power. These characters' true strength lies in their capability to draw upon the power of their deities, whether to increase their own and their allies' prowess in battle, to vex their foes with divine magic, or to lend healing to companions in need.
- Druids—masters of nature empathy. Allies to beasts and manipulators of nature, these often misunderstood protectors of the wild strive to shield their lands from all who would threaten them.
- Fighters—masters of weapons. Lords of the battlefield, these characters are a disparate lot, training with many weapons or just one, perfecting the uses of armor, learning the fighting techniques of exotic masters, and studying the art of combat, all to shape themselves into living weapons.
- Monks—masters of ki power. These warrior-artists search out methods of battle beyond swords and shields, finding weapons within themselves just as capable of crippling or killing as any blade.
- Paladins—masters of smiting evil. These noble souls dedicate their swords and lives to the battle against evil.
- Rangers—masters of tracking. Knowledgeable, patient, and skilled hunters, these characters hound man, beast,
I'd like to see a bit more speculation and discussion on the archetypes, because blogs about the middleware drama and the nature of in game time and the like ARE informative, but I personally care more about the meat and potatoes of combat and archetypes.
If there were to be a blog entry entitled "Archetype Spotlight: X" where the devs talked about how say, fighters or paladins or sorcerers would play out, I would be on the edge of my seat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So far we know that there will be 11 archetypes to correspond with the 11 core classes, as well as other archetypes to fill other roles, such as crafting.
I don't know if there will be other archetypes. They may not make much sense. The archetype system was created so that a familiar (and integral) part of the Pathfinder RPG could have a place in the online game. Since there are no "classes" for the wide range of careers people will pursue in Pathfinder Online, I don't necessarily want to create a "one size fits all" idea on how to incent and reward people who pursue those careers.
If we see a path that makes sense, we'll probably use the archetype system. But if we see some other system that would make more sense, and be more meaningful to the people who are engaged in a type of play, we'll likely go with that other system rather than trying to force a square peg into a round hole.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
As long as the crafter/processor 'classes' aren't just an add-on or a general skill tree that anyone can take, then I am ok with whatever you decide.
I mean I know people can take any skill anyways, and skills won't be cut off if you choose one archtype (skill tree) over another, but there is somewhat of a consequence in losing your capstone if you do leave the skill tree of your archtype. I hope crafting has something similar in that you 'need' to focus on it as well otherwise you won't get the capstone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
As long as the crafter/processor 'classes' aren't just an add-on or a general skill tree that anyone can take, then I am ok with whatever you decide.
I mean I know people can take any skill anyways, and skills won't be cut off if you choose one archtype (skill tree) over another, but there is somewhat of a consequence in losing your capstone if you do leave the skill tree of your archtype. I hope crafting has something similar in that you 'need' to focus on it as well otherwise you won't get the capstone.
I wish for this too, mastering a craft takes at least as much effort as mastering a combat profession...if not more.
It should be its own archetype with each crafting specially being a possible path...meaning becoming a master sword maker should take as long as becoming a master sword wielder. I would assume being able to craft certain things would also provide some sort of bonuses making the character viable in normal play...how often in fantasy stories has the blacksmith picked up his/her hammer and been forced to fight with it?...and doing it heroically due to their raw tremendous Strength?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan,
As long as the crafter/processor 'classes' aren't just an add-on or a general skill tree that anyone can take, then I am ok with whatever you decide.
I mean I know people can take any skill anyways, and skills won't be cut off if you choose one archtype (skill tree) over another, but there is somewhat of a consequence in losing your capstone if you do leave the skill tree of your archtype. I hope crafting has something similar in that you 'need' to focus on it as well otherwise you won't get the capstone.
I wish for this too, mastering a craft takes at least as much effort as mastering a combat profession...if not more.
It should be its own archetype with each crafting specially being a possible path...meaning becoming a master sword maker should take as long as becoming a master sword wielder. I would assume being able to craft certain things would also provide some sort of bonuses making the character viable in normal play...how often in fantasy stories has the blacksmith picked up his/her hammer and been forced to fight with it?...and doing it heroically due to their raw tremendous Strength?
I'm on the fence with terms of implications. I personally do not want a fighter who toils away at his sword to be disqualified for his capstone, unless he either, creates masterful swords before ever wielding one, or becomes a masterful fighter and then starts learning to craft swords. If anything the 2 skills are complimentary to eachother, rather than opposed. (understanding the shape and design of a sword, would slightly help improve technique, and knowing how swords are used, would assist in design weight balance etc...). Now I do not support swordsmanship giving bonuses to swordmaking, but it certainly makes more sense then disqualifying eachother's capstones.
I do fully support a fighter who splits his training time evenly for crafting and swordsmanship to take a full 5 years to master (vs the 2.5 years either one would take).
I imagine almost every character will have 3 majorly separate facets of the game, Harvesting, crafting, adventuring. and I personally do not agree that any of these should harm the other 2 if one is to train in them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I think harvesting should also be something that takes 2.5 years to master, these are professions in RL at least on par in the learning curve of military training or scholarly learning. Take mining for example, think of the best miner in the world (level 20) and how much they know about geographic formations, the likelihood of ore and minerals near others that might be visible, supporting a mine, recognizing weaknesses, etc...
The real game implication of a level 20 harvester can be improved efficiency and speed to the "good ore" when building a mine. Harvesting will be the center of a game based upon played crafted goods, these players (the miners) would be in demand by every guild.
To address your concerns Onishi, I have no qualms with crafting and harvesting being pseudo-archetypes, archetypes in all ways except the capstone implications. This would allow someone to pursue a more traditional archetype and crafting and/or harvesting, without the capstone hits...but it also allows those who want to specialize in crafting and harvesting equal opportunity to specialize in something that can provide them with an in-game living...equal to those who chose a more adventuring route. It also allows these crafters and/or harvesters to take some points in an adventuring archetype...and later after they finish crafting/harvesting they can go finish off that adventuring archetype if they want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh, I think harvesting should also be something that takes 2.5 years to master, these are professions in RL at least on par in the learning curve of military training or scholarly learning. Take mining for example, think of the best miner in the world (level 20) and how much they know about geographic formations, the likelihood of ore and minerals near others that might be visible, supporting a mine, recognizing weaknesses, etc...
The real game implication of a level 20 harvester can be improved efficiency and speed to the "good ore" when building a mine. Harvesting will be the center of a game based upon played crafted goods, these players (the miners) would be in demand by every guild.
To address your concerns Onishi, I have no qualms with crafting and harvesting being pseudo-archetypes, archetypes in all ways except the capstone implications. This would allow someone to pursue a more traditional archetype and crafting and/or harvesting, without the capstone hits...but it also allows those who want to specialize in crafting and harvesting equal opportunity to specialize in something that can provide them with an in-game living...equal to those who chose a more adventuring route. It also allows these crafters and/or harvesters to take some points in an adventuring archetype...and later after they finish crafting/harvesting they can go finish off that adventuring archetype if they want.
In a sense we are mostly in agreement, I actually think a better system might involve more varied crafts and harvests that take say 6 months to master each. Actually being able to craft everything could take 10-15 years, but being able to craft the highest grade of swords, could be done in 6 months to a year
Same could be done for harvesting, Either varried resources (mining, lumberjacking, farming, taming etc...)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big thing for me is I want crafting to be as important and needed as someone who needs a good Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, etc. archtype.
The problem I have with a crafter/processor being a pseudo-archtype, where there are no drawbacks or consequences for an adventurer archtype going to crafting is it lessens the person who wants to focus completely on crafting.
If anyone can take an adventuring archtype AND a crafting archtype, for that person who only went with crafting hurts them in the long run. Due to the fact that everyone can adventure 'and' they can craft to the same level as the focused crafter. Maybe not in the beginning, but several years down the line, they can. Especially if each crafting specialty is only 6 months to master.
When I've read the blogs I've gotten the impression that the game is not just promoting those who want conquer strongholds, explore caverns and kill monsters, but you can also be someone who only wants to run a business, whether through harvesting/processing items, but to craft and sell them, as well. But if the game is set up where an adventurer archtype can freely go back and forth between his archtype and crafting, it kind of erases the need for that businessman who is focusing on crafting, because, in the long run, the adventurer/crafter will be able to do it just as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If anyone can take an adventuring archtype AND a crafting archtype, for that person who only went with crafting hurts them in the long run. Due to the fact that everyone can adventure 'and' they can craft to the same level as the focused crafter. Maybe not in the beginning, but several years down the line, they can. Especially if each crafting specialty is only 6 months to master.
Well in my hypothetical, if each specialty takes 6 months to master, by the time the hypothetical fighter/swordsmith, has mastered swords, the hypothetical master crafter, has mastered swords, heavy armor bows and potions, leaving him still leaps and bounds better of a crafter than the capstoned fighter who can only craft one type of thing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The big thing for me is I want crafting to be as important and needed as someone who needs a good Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, etc. archtype.
The problem I have with a crafter/processor being a pseudo-archtype, where there are no drawbacks or consequences for an adventurer archtype going to crafting is it lessens the person who wants to focus completely on crafting.
The problem with designing the crafting system to purely benefit people who focus crafting 100% is that 95% of the people who want all combat, or all crafting... it's because they are running two characters. One which is pure PVP character and one which is a pure crafter.
Most people want a well rounded experience. They like some combat and some crafting. I don't think the game should cater to that playstyle. The Spartan style soldier trained from birth to do nothing but fight is a rare exception to the rule, not the rule. Most of your soldiers will have been raised as farmers, blacksmiths, tailors, etc. and gone on to be adventurers/soldiers.
What I would like to see is this. Crafting should have A LOT of skills. For instance in order to build boats. You would need a logger to fell the trees. Then a woodcutter to saw it into the planks and other pieces to be used in the ship, and carver for the more fine details like the wheel. You need a farmer to grow cotton and hemp. A ropemaker to turn the hemp into rope and hammocks. A weaver to weave the cotton into fabric. A tailor to turn the fabric into sails. You need an engineer to build the ballistas. The ballistas use metal components so that would require a miner, a smelter, and a blacksmith. The ammunition would require a fletcher most likely, which would likely be a more specialized subskill under carver. And of course a shipbuilder to put it all together. I'm sure there are yet more things I am forgetting but those 13 skills should be enough to illustrate my point.
You would give a regular character one of two of these skills they could take in addition to their normal class. That would mean if I did indeed cover every craft involved in putting a ship together it would take 6 to 13 regular player coordinating together to build this ship. If there is no auction house or teleportation system meaning these goods have to be hauled manually between each person's workstation... that is going to be quite an undertaking unless they all live together and work together in the same town, likely as part of the same company.
Now enter the dedicated crafter. He can easily train 5-8 crafting skills, and there may be certain crafting skills that are far easier for him to train (Especially if they have more than 1 or 2 prerequisites.)So two to three of these dedicated crafters working side by side can create their own ship building business. Or one can replace 2.5-8 of our regular players.
Not bad eh?
Remember we are purely talking ships here. I haven't gotten into armor or weapon smithing. Building construction especially where masonry and glass windows are concerned. Jewels and jewelry. Food and beverages. Bows, crossbows, bolts, arrows, javelins. Leather armor. Spellbooks. Potions. The taming and breeding of animals. The processing of animal goods such as wool and milk.
I think you get the point. If the crafting system is what I hope it will become, there should be room for everyone to participate and still have dedicated crafters be useful.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It has been said repeatedly that PFO will try to capture the spirit and feel of PFRPG even if it doesn't implement the mechanics.
From Your Pathfinder Online Character:
We also wanted to capture the idea from the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game that dedication to one path would have additional benefits. Therefore, if your character chooses to stay committed to one of these archetypes until it has achieved all 20 archetype merit badges, your character will earn an additional capstone ability!
In PFRPG, I understand that a character may choose any Profession, and really any number of different Professions, without in any way interfering with "the idea... that dedication to one path would have additional benefits".
I think this is largely what Ryan is referring to above when he says Crafting and Harvesting Archetypes "may not make sense".
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Andius-Great post, and I would have absolutely no issues if something like that happened. It allows those adventuring archtypes to have crafting skills (without blowing their capstone) but you can still have the dedicated crafters, as well.
Onishi actually touched on that already a couple of posts above yours.
@Nihimon-The thing is, crafting, or professions, are truly a 'side' skill in PFRPG. I mean do 'any' of us purely craft weapons, craft armors or a professional sailor? As characters, there are a lot of us who of course take those skills, but we aren't 'only' dedicated crafters/professionals, we are adventurers who craft or uses their profession on off times.
In this sense is where PFRPG does not translate well to PFO at all. Ryan has made it clear that PFO will have a working, breathing economy. Crafting (and professions) will be fully developed that will make a large part of that economy. None of that strikes of how crafting and professions work in PFRPG.
I certainly hope neither are treated like they are in PFRPG, at least. Otherwise the importance of being a crafter (or professional) is not anywhere near what I thought it would be.
If it is like how Andius said, I certainly would be very happy in regards to that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My two cents on the desired endstate:
- I'd like the choices you make about your path to be very meaningful.
- I want there to be interdependence--cooperation should be more productive than competition.
Given that, I don't want crafting to be a sidebar--to be a master crafter should be a commitment to a particular career. So while it may not be an archetype, I would like to see the career path for a master smith to be something that takes as long as, and requires the same dedication as becoming a mighty Paladin of the highest order.
Archetypes are a way of thinking about skills; careers are way of thinking about your social role. Ranger and Rogue are distinct archetypes, but I can imagine both being career thief-takers. However you organize the skills needed to become the world's most uberest weaponsmith, that career choice should carry the same weight as becoming a ranger of the wilds that can hunt down any criminal.