Snake and Crane AoOs in Full Defense

[Salabrian]

SO we have:
1) In full defense, you can't take AoOs
2) Snake and Crane style let you take AoOs when specific criteria are met (respectively, when enemy misses you or you deflect their attack)

I'm guessing that in these cases, the core rule takes precedence in that you can NOT take the Snake and Crane AoOs. Am I wrong? Do the style feats override the normal restriction?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Crane would let you, snake would not. Because Crane style specifically works when using full defense. In any case, throwing away all your actions for +6ish AC and a single attack per round seems like a bad idea to me...

[Salabrian]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Crane would let you, snake would not. Because Crane style specifically works when using full defense.

*Parts* of Crane style work specifically in full defense (dodge bonus and deflection), but have you seen anything in the feat description that specifically indicates you can take the AoO in full defense? I'd very much like to be wrong, but as is, I'm thinking you would just get the dodge bonus and be able to deflect but not hit back.

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

In any case, throwing away all your actions for +6ish AC and a single attack per round seems like a bad idea to me...

No, this obviously wouldn't be my main choice for offensive actions, but it'd be nice to have the extra attack or few in a situation where I need to be in full defense. Plus you throw in Panther style and it's a whole new game. Since Panther lets me make retaliatory strikes that aren't AoOs, I would have a decent reason to run around with that style hitting things while taking the defensive bonuses of crane style in full defense. Still, not the as aggressive as fighting normall or just defensively, but it's a whole lot more aggressive than regular full defense.

[Ian Davison]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Crane would let you, snake would not. Because Crane style specifically works when using full defense. In any case, throwing away all your actions for +6ish AC and a single attack per round seems like a bad idea to me...

It's been working well for my master of many styles monk. The combination of the increased AC from full defense (+7 for crane style and having more than three ranks in Acrobatics), the automatic converting a melee hit into a miss with Crane Wing, and the option to use my Sense Motive check as my AC for an attack with Snake Style (+12 mod currently) has made me a pretty decent evasion tank. I get the enemies to focus on me and let the heavy hitters of the party bring the pain. Good synergy so far. I haven't picked up Crane Ripost yet, but it'll allow me to make some attacks without compromising my defensive strategy.

[Tarantula]

Salabrian wrote:

SO we have:

1) In full defense, you can't take AoOs
2) Snake and Crane style let you take AoOs when specific criteria are met (respectively, when enemy misses you or you deflect their attack)

I'm guessing that in these cases, the core rule takes precedence in that you can NOT take the Snake and Crane AoOs. Am I wrong? Do the style feats override the normal restriction?

Total Defense:

Spoiler:

"You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can't combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat. You can't make attacks of opportunity while using total defense."

Fighting Defensively:

Spoiler:

"Fighting Defensively as a Standard Action: You can choose to fight defensively when attacking. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 to AC until the start of your next turn."

"Fighting Defensively as a Full-Round Action: You can choose to fight defensively when taking a full-attack action. If you do so, you take a –4 penalty on all attacks in a round to gain a +2 dodge bonus to AC for until the start your next turn."

When using total defense, you cannot make AoO's. Lets look at how crane/snake change that.

Crane Riposte:

Spoiler:

"Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent's attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected."

Ok, so Riposte works if you use crane wing. Easy enough.

Crane Wing:

Spoiler:

"Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you."

You can use Crane Wing then in total defense. But since the attack is an AoO and you can't make AoO from total defense, you can't make the attack.

Now lets check out snake.

Snake Fang:

Spoiler:

"Benefit: While using the Snake Style feat, when an opponent's attack misses you, you can make an unarmed strike against that opponent as an attack of opportunity. If this attack of opportunity hits, you can spend an immediate action to make another unarmed strike against the same opponent."

Nothing here overrides total defense stating you can't make AoO's. You can fight defensively and snake fang, but you can't from total defense.

One last thing to point out. Crane Wing deflects attacks, causing them to deal no damage. Not causing them to miss. You can't use crane wing to trigger snake fang.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ian Davison wrote:

It's been working well for my master of many styles monk. The combination of the increased AC from full defense (+7 for crane style and having more than three ranks in Acrobatics), the automatic converting a melee hit into a miss with Crane Wing, and the option to use my Sense Motive check as my AC for an attack with Snake Style (+12 mod currently) has made me a pretty decent evasion tank. I get the enemies to focus on me and let the heavy hitters of the party bring the pain. Good synergy so far. I haven't picked up Crane Ripost yet, but it'll allow me to make some attacks without compromising my defensive strategy.

You get the enemies to focus on you...by turtling up and doing literally almost nothing to be offensively threatening (you don't even threaten any squares!), as your other party members actually present a clear and immediate danger. "Heavy hitters" leading me to think these are other melee characters, RIGHT THERE next to the monsters. Even if you were capable of doing anything to stop them (which again, you can't, total defense sucks like that) from walking around you and heading for said allies if they were ranged....

I guess if the DM shuts his brain off and just has his NPCs act in whatever manner the party wishes them to rather than making tactically smart decisions or putting their own survival instincts first...Evasion Tank sounds like an awesome build!

[Salabrian]

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Ian Davison wrote:

It's been working well for my master of many styles monk. The combination of the increased AC from full defense (+7 for crane style and having more than three ranks in Acrobatics), the automatic converting a melee hit into a miss with Crane Wing, and the option to use my Sense Motive check as my AC for an attack with Snake Style (+12 mod currently) has made me a pretty decent evasion tank. I get the enemies to focus on me and let the heavy hitters of the party bring the pain. Good synergy so far. I haven't picked up Crane Ripost yet, but it'll allow me to make some attacks without compromising my defensive strategy.

You get the enemies to focus on you...by turtling up and doing literally almost nothing to be offensively threatening (you don't even threaten any squares!), as your other party members actually present a clear and immediate danger. "Heavy hitters" leading me to think these are other melee characters, RIGHT THERE next to the monsters. Even if you were capable of doing anything to stop them (which again, you can't, total defense sucks like that) from walking around you and heading for said allies if they were ranged....

I guess if the DM shuts his brain off and just has his NPCs act in whatever manner the party wishes them to rather than making tactically smart decisions or putting their own survival instincts first...Evasion Tank sounds like an awesome build!

I'm going to go ahead and head this off because i don't see this going anywhere other than "You shut up", "No, You shut up", "No, YOU shut up". I've got the answers to my questions, so thanks go to the insightful and productive posters of this thread. Further commentary is unnecessary.

[Mabven the OP healer]

I have to disagree that using a total defence is always a poor choice. There are many situations where your position, the position of your allies, and the layout of the environment make a total defence a great choice. You are presenting the enemy with a lot of bad choices: full attack you and most likely miss all attacks, while taking ranged and spell damage/effects from your party; move to one of your allies and get no attacks this round, and be open to a charge into flanking position; ranged attack your allies through soft-cover; move and get a single attack against an ally who is built for huge single-attack damage, who immediately tumbles away after his attack.

Generally, I think most people consider action economy to be the recipe for success in pathfinder. So, by sacrificing your actions on a round, if you are either depriving the enemy of more actions than your party is losing, or if fighting a single opponent, sacrificing your actions to deny the single enemy his actions is a winning proposition.