Well there are quite a lot of archetypes out there, and most of them really do it for me.But not all of them.
In fact,some of them seem to be complete design failures.
The best examples IMHO:
Wild Stalker(Ranger):
I really don´t get this one, what it is is a Barbarian-3.It really does not get anything a Barbarian could´t get ,and it trades out all that makes him a Ranger.
Shapeshifter(Ranger):
Now that one is a failure for sure.Weak abilities all over the place,and you have to take the Natural Weapon Combat Style
Ragechemist(Alchemist):
Maybe you read the Ragechemist thread ,so after the errata this archetype gives you huuuge penalties in exchange for +2 strenght.
This tradeoff is just insanely bad.
So, waddaya think.
Do you disagree? Or maybe you have your own issues with some archetypes. Here is the place to make them known.
Yeah maybe "useless" is a little harsh.I will change the thread title.
Edit:Ahem...seems like I can´t edit the title.Bad Luck.
The Savage Warrior fighter doesn't seem to have a place among many PCs as a single class. I can see a Barb/Fighter combo but not much more than that. Unless I'm missing something, I can't recall a playable race that gives you enough natural attacks to make it worthwhile.
The Savage Warrior fighter doesn't seem to have a place among many PCs as a single class. I can see a Barb/Fighter combo but not much more than that. Unless I'm missing something, I can't recall a playable race that gives you enough natural attacks to make it worthwhile.
Changelings can get claws.
Eldritch heritage can grant you claws.
Getting claws and a bite attack isn't particularly difficult. Heck even NPC wise I'd love it to throw onto intelligent mounts and the like.
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I love that archetypes are (on average) weaker but more specific than base classes. It's the only sane design to avoid power creep.
Some archetypes that I think are pretty lame:
(Most of the aforementioned rogue archetypes could easily be replaced by a rogue talent.)
I removed some attempts to derail the thread.
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Four Winds monk
But..but...no other archetype explicitly gives you fabulous hair!
Aspect of the Ki-Rin: The monk's skin takes on a golden luminescence, and a silvery mane that cannot be bound grows atop his head.
A lot of archetypes are very...niche. Many, such as Driver, would not really be suitable for your average AP. Many of the gunslinger archetypes are less useful in world without advanced firearms.
Empyreal Knight is pretty bad, you don't get much for what you lose.
Siege Mage is not very good either.
The shifter at high levels give you a +8 to str [...]
If you're talking about the Bear form shapeshifter, it gives you a +8 enhancement bonus to Strength. By level 20, I'd be surprised if you didn't already have a +6 belt of strength, so essentially that's a +2 bonus that he can benefit from for 2 minutes a day. At level 20. Weak...
Comatose Chemist and PK Rager* are by far and away the worst archetypes in the game. Plenty of other horrible ones, but those two are in a league of their own. Although, the Vow Monk may also qualify for their ranks based on the Vow of Poverty option alone, which is the single most horrible bit of class rules ever written in any d20 system.
*My current pet name for Wild Rager; I like "Zee Rage Powers, they do nothing!!" a tad more, but it's too lengthy to catch on.
Here are two comments:
Empyreal Knight is one of those archetypes that looks weak on paper, but is actually incredibly powerful once you realize what it does. Effectively, it grants the Paladin, a full base attack bonus class, the ability to use Summon Monster IX at high levels. Its the only full attack class to be able to use such potent summoning magic.
Mysterious Stranger provides an interesting trade-off; instead of having a passive bonus to damage and grit-spending misfire prevention, it has a passive misfire prevention and a grit-spending bonus to damage. Its other major benefit is that the Mysterious Stranger isn't limited by weapon type with either of its effects, while the vanilla Gunslinger slowly builds a specific list of firearms that it can do this with. Ultimately, it is the versatility of the Mysterious Stranger versus the specialization of the base Gunslinger.
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Comatose Chemist and PK Rager* are by far and away the worst archetypes in the game. Plenty of other horrible ones, but those two are in a league of their own. Although, the Vow Monk may also qualify for their ranks based on the Vow of Poverty option alone, which is the single most horrible bit of class rules ever written in any d20 system.
*My current pet name for Wild Rager; I like "Zee Rage Powers, they do nothing!!" a tad more, but it's too lengthy to catch on.
Vow of Poverty actually upset me, because it pretty much plopped into the spot that could have been filled by mechanics that would actually make gearless ascetic monks viable in adventure paths. If it had been some option off the the side it wouldn't be so bad, but as it is...it just takes the name of what should have been something good for monks and makes it that much less likely that we'll ever see a real, good option for that flavor of monk.
The fact that it doesn't even live up to its own flavor added insult to injury. It could have been a fixed, balanced take on the original Vow of Poverty concept, and that's what monk fans who first saw that there was a Vow of Poverty in Ultimate Magic were likely expecting. Instead it ran in the opposite direction. It's not a real vow of poverty if the character's viability is dependant on an expensive piece of magical gear. Especially frustrating when there's so much flavor in Golarion itself that lends itself to the idea of monks being able to become powerful through ascetic devotion, especially with figures like Irori and Korada around.
Wild Rager is never going to be allowed in my games, for the same reason Frenzied Barbarian never made it. It's ready-made griefing right out of the box.
edit-I remember the capstone ability for Monks of the Healing Hand making me angry as well. It was just such a blatant "@#$% you, player!" that we houseruled it into something appropriate so long back that I forgot about it.
Doesn't it in turn mean that a player has the cost of the +6 belt of strength worth in funds (36,000 gp) that they can spend another way?
You're missing the point. That's at LEVEL TWENTY. Most people don't even finish campaigns at that level, let alone play 20th lvl characters. Average gear of a 20th lvl character is about 900 000 gold.
Odds are, you won't spend your first 19 levels without a belt of strength +6 just waiting for capstone ability.
I really have no idea what to buy with 900 000 gold, let alone think of something that costs 36 000 and I desperately need at lvl 20;
But it entitles one to a fur full-suit including skull - helm !:P
As for the Shapeshifter, i´m always annoyed that my favoured terrain might be unused over long stretches of a campaign ( when i think of it), shapeshift to ursine always works, pretty long too, compared to bulls strength.
Might be biased though, i´m actually playing an Infiltrator.;)
The Savage Warrior fighter doesn't seem to have a place among many PCs as a single class. I can see a Barb/Fighter combo but not much more than that. Unless I'm missing something, I can't recall a playable race that gives you enough natural attacks to make it worthwhile.Changelings can get claws.
Eldritch heritage can grant you claws.
Getting claws and a bite attack isn't particularly difficult. Heck even NPC wise I'd love it to throw onto intelligent mounts and the like.
Half-orc with the bite attack, eldritch heritage...interesting...
edit-I remember the capstone ability for Monks of the Healing Hand making me angry as well. It was just such a blatant "@#$% you, player!" that we houseruled it into something appropriate so long back that I forgot about it.
Ah, I had actually...succeeded in making myself forget that archetype. Still not sure it's as bad as Comatose Chemist and PK Rager since you can basically just ignore all its godawful class features and end up as a monk with less stuff. Comatose Chemist and PK Rager don't just give you horrible trades / effectively take away class features in return for garbage. Merely having the archetype will screw you oer, very very painfully, and there's nothing you can really do about it. Thus why I put archetypes like that in their own "tier" of suck.
At level 3, if the Shapeshifter ranger chooses to get the Form of the Bear ability, it gives them a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength.
For 3 rounds per day, yes.
I hadn't looked at ragechemist before.
Wow.
That is possibly one of the worst pieces of design I have ever seen. Not only is it just plain bad, its descriptions do not match its mechanics.
Hey storm maybe you should look back over those first two ranger archetypes you put down. When you take both together you end up at later levels with a character that can easily keep up if not surpass most fighters in damage and if geared properly AC. The shifter at high levels give you a +8 to str and acts as the final beast shape which is a further increase to str/con/NA/and other special abilitys. Taking the beast rage powers for barbarian gives you 2 claw attacks(1d8*3) pounce and added NA. On top of this you can now spend extra feats on Imp Natural armor and Imp Natural Weapon. Top it off with giving yourself rake and you have 2 attacks with a high to hit good damage and when both hit a free extra hit with increased str damage.
But according to RAW a Ranger can't take both the Shapeshifter and Wild Stalker archetypes together as they both modify the Ranger's 2nd level Combat Style Feat. The Shapeshifter "must choose the natural weapon combat style" and the Wild Stalker trades that class ability away for Uncanny Dodge. Too bad because otherwise the two archetypes look like they would be great fun together.
Wild Stalker(Ranger):
I really don´t get this one, what it is is a Barbarian-3.It really does not get anything a Barbarian could´t get ,and it trades out all that makes him a Ranger.
In my group when a player takes leadership another player plays their cohort, which I'm currently doing for another player. It was a ranger cohort so because I wanted something with the ranger "feel" but who could hit and shoot effectively on a fifteen point buy I settled on the Wild Stalker. Now, for ten rounds per day, he has a STR of 18 and a DEX of 16. The archetype has done everything I wanted for the concept I went for.
The rogue Archetype "Pirate" stands out in my mind not for being especially bad - you trade trapfinding, trap sense and a talent for a scaling bonus against fear and mind-affecting effects and some +2s to some boaty skills, which isn't a wowwer, but isn't the rawest deal available.
What stands out is the Swinging Reposition ability, which is just one the most baffling chunks of text ever to sail the high seas. First off, it's only turned on when you're around "ship’s masts, rigging, ropes, sails, and other such structures", or "on the deck of a boat" as it's sometimes called. Whatever, that's incredinarrow, but you're a pirate. But then the ability mentions acrobatics checks without mentioning what they're for or given you any kind of bonus with them, and what the ability actually does is let you move five feet after you charge or bull rush. Pirates, of course, being famous chargers. Really, I get what the ability is trying to evoke - you use ropes and stuff to swing at a guy, whack him, and swing away, but it's written like two separate naval-campaign character options collided in the night and someone just put the pieces back together kind of at random.
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Most druid archetypes in general seem to be written sort of like they knew that druids are pretty good to begin with, and for the most part trade in things for equivalent things... and then slap a big old wild shape penalty on top of that. I can see that they didn't want a random archetype to supplant the standard druid, but they feel overbalanced. (The exception is Menhir Savant, which basically every druid should take, and which I'm glad is in the game, because it trades some of the druid's overly woodsy stuff for more generic material.)
Dragon Shaman is the standout among bad druid archetypes, though. Their totemic summons applies to one creature. And it's a lame one. Compared to the other animal shaman archetypes, the dragon shaman is penalized an extra two wild shape levels, and "lizards" is an awfully small and awfully limited set of things to be allowed to turn into. (Not to mention that it's a subset of the things Saurian Shamans get. The worst possible subset.) Oh, and you also get robbed of one of your chances to turn into a crappy lizard at level 8, but that's okay, because you get +1d6 energy damage when you turn into a crappy lizard. That's way better than turning into something with a bunch of "attacks" and "movement modes" and "massive strength and constitution bonuses" any day!
I hadn't looked at ragechemist before.
Wow.
That is possibly one of the worst pieces of design I have ever seen. Not only is it just plain bad, its descriptions do not match its mechanics.
That's why I call it the Comatose Chemist. :)
Far more accurate description of what the archetype brings to you. I mean, you look at the name, Ragechemist, and you think, "Wow! He's not a normal alchemist! He's a Ragechemist! Those other pansy alchemists, they just create gold. The Ragechemist? He creates...RAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!"
...At least that was what I was thinking when I saw the name...
Ahh, I totally forgot about the Dragon Shaman and his baffling selection of choices.That should definately be the weakest druid you can play.
I'm not going to comment further save that every time someone points out a "useless" "wrongbadfun" or "fail" archetype, I've found more than enough redeeming features to make said archetype an option FOR THE RIGHT CAMPAIGN.
I challenge you to defend the Ragechemist, and sketch a campaign outline that would make the archetype a valid choice.
Ahh, I totally forgot about the Dragon Shaman and his baffling selection of choices.That should definately be the weakest druid you can play.
Not only that. It has almost nothing to do with dragons. It should be renamed Lizard Shaman.
My personal non-favourite is the Cloistered Cleric. It cripples spellcasting (the cleric's main class feature) and gets abilities that are paltry in comparison. Why not make changes to Channeling? Is it still playable? Yes. But there is no reason why you want to.
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My personal non-favourite is the Cloistered Cleric. It cripples spellcasting (the cleric's main class feature) and gets abilities that are paltry in comparison. Why not make changes to Channeling? Is it still playable? Yes. But there is no reason why you want to.
And IMO, it is such a terrible shame to have done that-- when 'Cloistered Clerics' in the 3.5 variant (presented in 3.5's 'Unearthed Arcana', not to be confused with the 1E supplement) were really cool without being over-powered in my experience. Now-- we've got something that just sucks, instead of involving quite viable trade-offs.
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This thread gives me an idea for "expert mode" PF:
Pick one of the harder APs.
10 point buy.
Characters must take one of the "crappy" archetypes.
(Envisions a Crossbowman Fighter, Cloistered Cleric, Driver and Crossblooded Sorcerer going up against Xanesha) Mwahahahaha.
Crossblooded is pretty good for a dip but pretty bad for a single class sorcerer.
He can remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier.The point was, the character can get the bonus which increases as they level much earlier, possibly reducing the need for magic items. It isn't the best archetype (and I can see how it could have been written to be much more useful, but I wouldn't say it is completely useless.)
My mistake on the rounds/day, sorry.
I agree it's not completely useless. "Lame" is the word I would use. I assumed the word "useless" in the thread title was a bit of harmless hyperbole.
He can remain in this form for a number of rounds equal to his Ranger level + his Wisdom modifier.
Gosh, i thought it were 10 min/level, like the Infiltrator ability, this is really somewhat thin. Still liking the flavour.
poisoner. at low levels you can't afford poison, at high levels it doesn't work.
You can craft poison however, and while the craft rules pretty much such suck they are not that bad for poisons, and you get a bonus to crafting that makes it easier to get them faster.
PS:I do think they are overpriced though, and I would have allowed the poison archetype to craft them at an even cheaper price so he can get earlier access to them.
You can craft poison however, and while the craft rules pretty much such suck they are not that bad for poisons, and you get a bonus to crafting that makes it easier to get them faster.
PS:I do think they are overpriced though, and I would have allowed the poison archetype to craft them at an even cheaper price so he can get earlier access to them.
Yeah, poisons have ALWAYS been overpriced from 3E and beyond. Should make a Master of poison archetype, that can get one 1d4 doses of poison from any poisonous creature he kills..
One of my problems with the Totem Druid is that Bear Druids get to talk with ALL mammals, but Wolves just get canines, Tigers, just get Felnies, and of course, as was mentioned, Dragons just get lizards.
And while we're talking about things that bug me (although not related to an archetype), I love crossbows. There's nothing cooler to me than a dwarf lighting up goblins with a crossbow. Who in their right mind would take crossbow over bow? It takes 3 feats just for a light crossbow to be as good as a bow. If you have a STR bonus, it takes 3 feats and you won't do as much damage since there's no composite crossbow.
This thread gives me an idea for "expert mode" PF:
Pick one of the harder APs.
10 point buy.
Characters must take one of the "crappy" archetypes.(Envisions a Crossbowman Fighter, Cloistered Cleric, Driver and Crossblooded Sorcerer going up against Xanesha) Mwahahahaha.
Crossblooded is pretty good for a dip but pretty bad for a single class sorcerer.
Dibs on the Crossbowman!
I would take the crossblooded sorcerer. :)
Dibs on the cleric!
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One of my problems with the Totem Druid is that Bear Druids get to talk with ALL mammals, but Wolves just get canines, Tigers, just get Felnies, and of course, as was mentioned, Dragons just get lizards.You can of course, just prepare the normal spell.
I read that as 'you can of course, just ignore your archetype'.