So I got into a heated fight with my GM the other day, rather the other player did but I was involved. :p
SUMMARY: What happens if I throw one creature at another with Telekinesis? How does creature size equal into this?
It was a fair situation, I rolled an initiative of 32 "Insane dex bonus, + feat + racial" and used Telekinesis on my friendly fighter so that he could be right next to the beholder on his first turn and dash it into pieces before it got its first turn. The other player would not make a save against it.
Now the DM didn't like this. We already agreed that both the beholder and the player would take the Violent Thrust damage, but the GM made a good point that if you got shunted through the air, you would lose your balance and would have to make a reflex to see if you would land prone or not, there by requiring a movement to get back up, being a fighter, he would most defiantly fail, but in the end, definitely fail. Although this does have a lovely implication for a later time that I can now cause creatures to go prone as well as a number of other effects.
So after using the logic of "ITS MAGIC, IT DOESN'T HAVE TO MAKE SENSE" failed we came to the conclusion that I would have to "sack" a level 1 spell in order to have the power and control to make sure I had enough control over him. I didn't argue because a level 1 spell at this point, although a bit costly, I didn't think it was too much of a cost. Though I think it was undeserved.
So basically my questions are
1. If I throw someone at someone else, do they both take damage?
2. Do they both fall prone?
3. Is on effectively "pinning" the other person or is on top of them there by "entangling" them?
4. Aside from the will save, do ether of them get saves, what is the save based on.
5. If I throw someone against a wall, how much damage do they take? I am assuming they take their 1 point per 25 pounds of weight in damage.
6. Can I throw someoneA up in the air, and move them ever so slightly that they land on someoneB else. Would the someoneB else that someoneA landed on take the fall damage or just the "object" damage?
7.If a throw something that is large, like a giant rock, that is consider same, or 1 size category larger, would they be pin by virtue of something larger landing on you?
True enough, which is why I didn't argue, but I am still interested what the "official ruling is" since we like those. :p
I don't disagree with the GM's logic, if I just threw him, he could easily start rotating in the air. However, I don't disagree with the other player and I's logic ether. "Lack of any say in the text, magic not making sense in general because it is magic."
Although it was more because he didn't want us to one shot the encounter. It ended up taking two turns because he ended up stunning half the party, and nearly killing me. :p Also, I plan on doing this again in the future as well, so I would like to get some ideas down.
Off the top of my head, if I were the GM...
1. Yes.
2. No, but person being thrown might. I'd probably have him make an Acrobatics check.
3. No, I'd keep them in separate squares.
4. You'd have to make an attack roll as mentioned under the Violent Thrust action.
5. I'd treat the thrown Medium character as a Huge or Gargantuan improvised weapon. That'd be 2d6 or 3d6 damage.
6. Sure, but I might give a penalty on the attack roll. I'd just give the "object" damage to the target and falling damage to the faller.
7. Maybe. I'd at least give a Reflex save to jump out of the way.
None of those are official rulings, though.
Off the top of my head, if I were the GM...
4. You'd have to make an attack roll as mentioned under the Violent Thrust action.
Additional question to that, I did make an attack roll and I did hit. However, what would happen if I missed? Would the player keep on flying? Would he still hit his target? Would it be, if I missed by 1-5 he hits but doesn't deal damage, and 6+ he flies over head?
Generally I rule if a character is willingly moved between turns, then they HAVE taken a move action and only have a standard action left. Thrown, TK'd or catapaulted, I don't care about the specifics, but you are not getting your full attack.
First of all, it should be an acrobatics check, not a reflex save. The DC of the check would be equal to the save though.
1. If I throw someone at someone else, do they both take damage?
Yes, they do. Consider it similar to fall damage. The guy moving through the air comes to a short, violent, stop and takes damage as appropriate. However, he's not accelerating at every second to the point he's falling at hundreds of feet per second.
2. Do they both fall prone?
No, the creature that is hit has the chance to 'brace' itself, while the one being thrown, can not.
3. Is on effectively "pinning" the other person or is on top of them there by "entangling" them?
If one were to shoot an arrow or throw weapons, does it entangle the person? No, therefore, they are not entangled either. However, you could, as an option, with hold your action until the fighters turn, and use Violent Thrust to Bull Rush with a bonus attached. Kind of a long range aid another.
4. Aside from the will save, do ether of them get saves, what is the save based on.
The only one who gets a save is the one being subject to the actual magic of the spell. In this case, it's the fighter. If you were to try and Violent Thrust the Beholder, he gets the save.
5. If I throw someone against a wall, how much damage do they take? I am assuming they take their 1 point per 25 pounds of weight in damage.
Yes, they do take damage and it is the object damage. However, one option you might think about is dragging along a number of greatswords and throwing those at an enemy instead. IIRC you can violent thrust a number of objects per caster level as long as they weigh no more than 25 pounds. I pointed out to my GM once, that if I were to carry Large greatswords, they would deal 3d6 damage, weigh less than 25 pounds, and if I made an item similar to a Glove of Storing, but like a bracelet of swords, it would be a very cinematic attack.
Picture that scene from Eragon when that evil sorcerer guy throws all those weapons.
6. Can I throw someoneA up in the air, and move them ever so slightly that they land on someoneB else. Would the someoneB else that someoneA landed on take the fall damage or just the "object" damage?
The person thrown would take falling damage, and the person hit would take either the Fall or Object damage, subject to GM approval. In reality, they too would take the fall damage. If you were to apply the object damage to the car that got hit by someone jumping off the building, it wouldn't do nearly as much damage as it does in real life.
7.If a throw something that is large, like a giant rock, that is consider same, or 1 size category larger, would they be pin by virtue of something larger landing on you?
No, because when you fight a larger creature who can throw larger rocks, they would be able to pin you as well. Not only that, take into account a creature like a Giant. He is, effectively, wielding a tree trunk. If you were hit by a tree trunk in real life, you're going to be knocked off your feet. But that doesn't happen in Pathfinder or RPGs in general, unless they have the feat Awesome Blow or something similar.
There is a spell in APG that is close to this. I would use that for guidance. Enemy Hammer
There is a spell in APG that is close to this. I would use that for guidance. Enemy Hammer
Edit: Fixed Link
Sure, that would be a good basis spell if you have no regard for the safety of your comrade. However, a more tactically sound option would be Telekinetic Charge No damage to your ally, and a lot more damage to the enemy. It's also a lower level spell, so I'm sure you can get away with such an application with full telekinesis.