Pirahna Strike vs. Power Attack

[Khrysaor]

PFSRD wrote:

Piranha Strike (Combat)
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.

PFSRD wrote:

Power Attack (Combat)
Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

I see builds for pirahna strike but the only advantage I see to the feat is not needing the 13 strength prerequisite. It also requires weapon finesse. In general it's the same feat but lacks the the extra benefit that comes with power attack being 1.5 times the damage with the 2 handing variations. How is pirahna strike ever worth taking if you have 13+ strength? Even if you can't 2 hand a light weapon, which I think you can, you still have the feat tax of weapon finesse. Shouldn't it allow you to have the full damage with your off-hand or something else to make these feats equal and viable? Otherwise it's worthless and Power Attack FTW. Or even give +3 damage instead of -2. I'm sure this last would unbalance but the full % to offhand doesn't really.

Still seems like you'd rather get power attack + cleave using a dagger even if you could have weapon finesse + pirahna strike. I get that dex builds will go weapon finesse but power attack > pirahna strike.

EDIT: Probably should have put this in advice and not rules.

[bigkilla]

Not if you have a low STR and a Agile weapon.

[Khrysaor]

bigkilla wrote:

Not if you have a low STR and a Agile weapon.

This still doesn't seem friendly to anything but someone that would dump strength to be able to get on par damage due to negatives in strength. The to-hit is made up for by the high dex + weapon finesse and then the pirahna strike makes up for the 7 you'd put in str. I don't really see 3 points being that much on character creation and would see this more as a feat for a mage. Strength will still be needed for a rogue to wear his armor and carry his gear without incurring penalties and 13 is a decent mid range for this.

Edit: I see the flavor of a rogue with this but power attack trumps it in versitility. And nothing stops a finesse rogue from having power attack except those 3 points on character creation. Maybe for 15 point builds if you didn't want to dump something else.

[Rathendar]

If you look at the power attack wording, you will see that it is not usable with Light Weapons. If your character build uses them, Power Attack is useless for it. Piranha Strike allows a 'power attack' type of feat for the Light Weapon and Finesse builds and to offset not having a moderate to high STR score.

[Khrysaor]

Rathendar wrote:

If you look at the power attack wording, you will see that it is not usable with Light Weapons. If your character build uses them, Power Attack is useless for it. Piranha Strike allows a 'power attack' type of feat for the Light Weapon and Finesse builds and to offset not having a moderate to high STR score.

Where does it say this?

[bigkilla]

Khrysaor wrote:

Rathendar wrote:

If you look at the power attack wording, you will see that it is not usable with Light Weapons. If your character build uses them, Power Attack is useless for it. Piranha Strike allows a 'power attack' type of feat for the Light Weapon and Finesse builds and to offset not having a moderate to high STR score.

Where does it say this?

Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

I think what he is referring to is the bolded area but no where does it state that it cannot be used with light weapons.It can be used with natural weapons which are treated as light weapons so unless there is some errata somewhere I see no reason that it would not work with light weapons.

[Rathendar]

Hmm, whoops, i am remembering the 3.x text. My apologies. In that case, you are mostly correct it would be useful to those who do not have the requisite Str score or who are inclined to take finesse anyways for their build. This would come into play more often using the 15 and 20 point buys, or for high Dex fighter, monk or rogue builds as well as TWF light weapon users. In effect it gives a partial workaround for MAD stat investments for melee types.

[Khrysaor]

And just so we're clear; 10 Strength means a light load of 33lbs or less. 34-66lbs is a medium load and already incurs penalties.

Chain shirt 25 lbs or Leather Armor 15 lbs or Studded Leather 20 lbs
Dagger 1lb or Shortsword 2lbs
Average clothing 2-5lbs
Backpack 2lbs
Bedroll 5lbs
Blanket, Common 1lbs or Winter 3lbs
Rations 1lb/day
Rope 5lbs
Tent (1 person) 20lbs (never gonna happen with this strength rating)
Waterskin 4lbs
Whetstone 1lb

I classify these things pretty much as necessity. Obviously he could choose to wear no armor due to weight but that's less defense. Doesn't seem likely until bracers are available.

[Khrysaor]

bigkilla wrote:

Khrysaor wrote:

Rathendar wrote:

If you look at the power attack wording, you will see that it is not usable with Light Weapons. If your character build uses them, Power Attack is useless for it. Piranha Strike allows a 'power attack' type of feat for the Light Weapon and Finesse builds and to offset not having a moderate to high STR score.

Where does it say this?

Power Attack (Combat)

You can make exceptionally deadly melee attacks by sacrificing accuracy for strength.

Prerequisites: Str 13, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You can choose to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is increased by half (+50%) if you are making an attack with a two-handed weapon, a one handed weapon using two hands, or a primary natural weapon that adds 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier on damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon.

When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by –1 and the bonus to damage increases by +2.

You must choose to use this feat before making an attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.

I think what he is referring to is the bolded area but no where does it state that it cannot be used with light weapons.It can be used with natural weapons which are treated as light weapons so unless there is some errata somewhere I see no reason that it would not work with light weapons.

The bolded is only referring to the +50% for using the feat with a 2 handed weapon, wielding a one handed weapon 2 handed, Or natural weapon that deals 1.5 times strength. There is nothing that says a light weapon cannot be used with this feat. It specifically calls out those forms of attack only for the +50%.

EDIT: If, and only if, it said you could not use light weapons with this feat does it give an advantage to Pirahna Strike for light weapons.

[Khrysaor]

Rathendar wrote:

Hmm, whoops, i am remembering the 3.x text. My apologies. In that case, you are mostly correct it would be useful to those who do not have the requisite Str score or who are inclined to take finesse anyways for their build. This would come into play more often using the 15 and 20 point buys, or for high Dex fighter, monk or rogue builds as well as TWF light weapon users. In effect it gives a partial workaround for MAD stat investments for melee types.

To this I say why restrict yourself to Pirahna strike when Power attack is still superior and more versitile if you have the str. I don't know any builds that would force a 12 or below strength other than a wizard or class that can dump strength. Strength still adds damage in both cases so dumping strength would still hurt you.

This is a combat feat that doesn't seem to be melee class friendly compared to power attack. It also feels like developer oversight.

[Rathendar]

20 dex, 10 or 12 str rogue or fighter(or monk, or ninja, blah blah etc etc) using finesse as a build. You said it yourself, power attack is better..IF and only IF you have the STR. Duellist PRC also good for this. Having a 13+ STR is not a given.

[bigkilla]

Khrysaor wrote:

Rathendar wrote:

Hmm, whoops, i am remembering the 3.x text. My apologies. In that case, you are mostly correct it would be useful to those who do not have the requisite Str score or who are inclined to take finesse anyways for their build. This would come into play more often using the 15 and 20 point buys, or for high Dex fighter, monk or rogue builds as well as TWF light weapon users. In effect it gives a partial workaround for MAD stat investments for melee types.

To this I say why restrict yourself to Pirahna strike when Power attack is still superior and more versitile if you have the str. I don't know any builds that would force a 12 or below strength other than a wizard or class that can dump strength. Strength still adds damage in both cases so dumping strength would still hurt you.

This is a combat feat that doesn't seem to be melee class friendly compared to power attack. It also feels like developer oversight.

I actually have a fighter weapon master/rogue knife fighter build that uses a 12 STR and piranha strike. But then again I do not dump stats or super optimize characters.

[Khrysaor]

As I said earlier with my encumberence post, as long as you use those rules, having a low strength is not a likely case for any melee class. You will always be restricted to light armor and more than likely it will be leather at 15lbs. and you won't have some of the necessities of adventuring. I know there's builds out there for this. I've seen them. But from what I see they don't take encumberence into account. Having a Chain shirt and a tent is 45 lbs. You're also naked and have no food or water and are carrying that tent by hand with nothing to strap it onto. That's medium encumberence for a 12 strength and you get penalized as per the medium armor rules. That's a 20ft move and some reduced dex or something. Sure you're quick with those daggers. Unfortunately you're worthless at moving around. You attempt to move with acrobatics to avoid AoO through someone's square and you end up adjacent to them still if you started adjacent to them. If you werent adjacent it's impossible.

I know lot's of people play without encumberence but I like to stick to the rules if I can and this one is entirely relevant as you don't want players having ridiculous utility by having every item available.

I get that the feat is supposed to be flavor for the dex build but it's lacking by comparison power attack which is it's equivalent.

bigkilla wrote:

I actually have a fighter weapon master/rogue knife fighter build that uses a 12 STR and piranha strike. But then again I do not dump stats or super optimize characters.

Besides my encumberence argument for low strength, what was worth putting that one point at character creation into instead of the strength for a character that's not super optimized? 15 point buy is a 12 in everything with a 14 in 1 thing. Potential +2 in two stats with a -2 in one for 16,14,12,12,12,10.

[Rathendar]

Int for more skill points perhaps? Wis for an actual save boost? Cha to have better socials? Concepts vary and having a 13+ Str is not a game requirement to play a viable character. If the feat serves little purpose to you, that's all well and good, and no sweat. On the flip side, i had several players at my table who were very happy to see it.

[mdt]

Khrysaor wrote:

And just so we're clear; 10 Strength means a light load of 33lbs or less. 34-66lbs is a medium load and already incurs penalties.

Chain shirt 25 lbs or Leather Armor 15 lbs or Studded Leather 20 lbs
Dagger 1lb or Shortsword 2lbs
Average clothing 2-5lbs
Backpack 2lbs
Bedroll 5lbs
Blanket, Common 1lbs or Winter 3lbs
Rations 1lb/day
Rope 5lbs
Tent (1 person) 20lbs (never gonna happen with this strength rating)
Waterskin 4lbs
Whetstone 1lb

I classify these things pretty much as necessity. Obviously he could choose to wear no armor due to weight but that's less defense. Doesn't seem likely until bracers are available.

Weight restrictions go away as soon as you get to Handy Haversack range (say level 5) or Bag of Holding (level 6 or 7). You can put most of that stuff in your haversack.

[LoreKeeper]

Piranha Strike is a no-brainer for a character with low strength who uses Weapon Finesse anyway. This is not that uncommon for certain rogue/ninja and monk builds; and many non-ranger Two-Weapon Fighting builds.

Yes, if you have 13 Strength or better, then Power Attack is the better feat as it opens up more follow-up feats. If your build only has 10 Strength, then Piranha Strike is a nice way to compensate. Piranha Strike is good enough, it doesn't "lack" anything.

[Crysknife]

I think you give encumbrance too much weight.

First of all unless you are level 1 or 2 you can get around it easily. For 1000 gp mulepack cord (or something like that) give your +8 strength for the purpose of calculating encumbrance.
Even at low level, nothing prevent you from having a mule or something on which you leave your tent, bedroll or other useless stuff. You can also have a barrel of beer and use that to carry your stuff.

Spoiler:

the trick is to use it to make the fighter/barbarian carry the stuff you don't need in combat, barrel included

Also, as said there are plenty of rogues who uses light weapon (especially if TWFing) and for them power attack is not an option.

[BYC]

It's definitely inferior, but I'm okay with that since it's at least viable. My combat rogues have high STR, but others wish to pump only DEX and use the Agile enhancement. It's pretty big $$$ cost, and it takes 1 extra feat (Weapon Finesse), which is why I dislike it.

I definitely think it's more for small characters because of the -2 STR. Medium characters should just go high STR, and medium or low DEX.

I'm more annoyed that rapiers and scimitars can't be applied for Piranha Strike due to them being 1H weapons even though they can be Finessed with the right feats. It really wouldn't be broken. It takes 1 extra feat, and people who want to use rapiers usually want to do the light armor/duelist thing anyway.

[ShadowcatX]

Piranha strike is for characters who don't have the prerequesite strength for power attack, and yes, power attack is better and yes, dex builds in general are sub optimal, but so what? Not everyone has to be 100% optimized, and piranha strike, along with weapon finesse and the agile enchant, can allow a dex focused character to still deliver considerable damage.

[KrispyXIV]

Crysknife wrote:

For 1000 gp mulepack cord (or something like that) give your +8 strength for the purpose of calculating encumbrance.

As those cords occupy the same slot as a Cloak of Resistance, they really aren't a long term solution IMO.

On the topic of Piranha Strike, there are a significant number of builds where it makes sense (Especially for -Str/+Dex Races like Halflings where a 13 str is EXPENSIVE). What makes me sad is it doesn't work with finessable 1-handers like whips.

[Terronus]

Is it possible to use both feats at the same time?

[KrispyXIV]

Terronus wrote:

Is it possible to use both feats at the same time?

Piranha Strike, as quoted in the OP, explicitly says no.

[Thalin]

It's not the most exciting feat in the world; but is there as an alt for the already suffering Dex builds that don't want Str bonuses.

[Khrysaor]

Thanks everyone. I overlooked the small character builds that this seems most appropriate for. I don't include requiring other magic items as being appropriate for feats as you place an extra tax on the feat itself which would make it even less desireable. You could always get slotless muleback cords for 2000gp so you can use that cloak of resistance. A bag of holding type 1 weighs 15lbs which could be half your weight for a 10 str or 1/3 for the 12 str. The haversack is only 5 lbs and has a lot of utility but armor and weapons are usually still carried and could push your characters limits as with the bag of holding. Again these all still create a 'tax' applied to the feat though and you'd suffer the penalties for a few levels until it's even possible to attain them.

EDIT: I'm not looking to optimize a build I just think about how things would play out realisticly while carrying all of your equipment around. I picture melee characters as hardy individuals and even balanced ones would have the strength to carry their equipment without penalty to do what they do better. A bogged down halfling only moves 15 ft a round but I can see the expense of str to their small size. But that is why their gear only weighs half as much as normal.

[98pointsix]

Seems pretty tailored to finesse monks. Unarmed flurry doesnt count as offhand, no armor or weapons to worry about so encumbrance isnt an issue, lets you stat prioritise 1DEX, 2WIS, 3CON and not hit like a powderpuff.

[Fromper]

I could maybe see my halfling cleric with 7 or 8 str (haven't finished building him yet, so the details are still fuzzy) using this eventually. He's mainly a buffer/healer, and he can get away with the low str because small sized weapons and armor weigh half as much, so encumbrance isn't an issue. He'll have pretty good AC, so he might pick up a light weapon and spend a little time on the front line, more to help his teammates pick up flanks when he isn't casting spells than to do any real damage himself. But with weapon finesse and piranha strike, he might at least do a few points here and there.