Chief Technical Officer
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We currently offer many alternatives to prepainted miniatures, including Reaper's unpainted metal Pathfinder Miniatures; Pathfinder Paper Minis; and our own early foray into metal miniatures, Pathfinder Chronicles Minis.
Our Beginner Box pawns have been very well received, and we're looking into the possibility of offering more of them. Stay tuned!
Wow,you just won't give up will you?
Well. Apparently people whined long enough to get a Pathfinder Pre-Painted Collectible (Random) Miniatures game. And I for one am glad they got what they asked for.
I am asking for something else. And I am not alone in asking for this. Just perhaps the most vocal.
I would like to see the pawn/pog alternative actively explored by Paizo. I think this is something that would not have to be farmed out and could be done all under the roof of the GameMastery line of products. To me it seems kind of obvious. You make cardboard flipmats and settings when you could have made a plastic model (reference Dwarven Forge). Why not make cardboard miniatures for that same system?
I know it would be very well received. I see people buying the D&D Monster Vault all the time JUST for the card board pogs. I myself bought the Pathfinder Beginners Boxed set JUST for the die cut pawns. The gamestore I buy from locally has a 'store' copy for people to look at. So I think people will buy or order more once they see the quality. They are indeed beautiful. These would be what I would personally like to use if the 'footprint' issue were resolved (preferably with some sort of alchohol erasable pen friendly base).But by all means. Keep flaming me though. It keeps the discussion alive.
I also find it very ironic that Erik would flame the idea of doing POGs for Pathfinder, when in the PATHFINDER CORE RULEBOOK ITSELF! the examples of play use what is obviously a cardboard pog on a flipstyle mat. (See page 192 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for one of MANY instances where POGS are used to represent PCs, NPCs and Monsters in tactical situations).
Maybe the guys who actually created the game just thought they were better to use. :D
So how about a comment on that, Erik?If I didn't believe that Paizo could put out something like this and do a fantastic, game changing job of it, I wouldn't be so passionate about pushing the idea.
Just some food for thought.
I doubt those are actual, carboard cutouts on a flipmat. I'd presumed they were just cut and paste images. I think the top-down approach to illustration is necessary for a rulebook, but I personally share the preference for pawns as being more compatible with minis for actual play.
I dont really understand your 'zeal' in this - Paizo've pretty much said they're looking at pawns, so what's the problem? They have been well received and are clearly within their ability to produce. No doubt it will take time, but it would be more surprising to me if they didnt end up putting something like what you want out sooner or later.
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What about the Paper Minis?
They are exactly cut and paste images of Portrait Pogs on a Flipmap Steve. This top-down approach to illustration is not necessary for a rulebook. Warhammer and Warhammer 40K do not use it. Flames of War does not use it. As a matter of fact, the only systems that I have seen use it, Roleplaying or Miniature System are D&D 3.0, 3.5 and Pathfinder. 4th Edition Dungeons and Dragons used their line of prepainted plastic miniatures on a flipmat for their 'examples of play.' The Portrait Pogs on a Flipmat IS a great system for tactical combat though. And I have no doubt this is why it was used for the Pathfinder Core Rulebook.
My 'zeal' is mainly that I have concerns. 1. Once this miniature system is out, I really doubt that WizKids won't exert pressure on Paizo to prevent the release of anything WizKids perceive as competition for their collectible miniatures game. 2. If you don't ask for something, you typically don't get it. 3. I really do feel like if somebody doesn't keep bringing this up it will get regulated to the 'meh. we are thinking about it' bin. 4. I want to make sure the artists for Paizo have gainful employment through the winter to have money for coal. It may be cold where they are. Did you ever think of that? Huh? Well did you?
Yeah, I just don't understand why "we're not going to make pogs, but we're seriously
looking into pawns" isn't enough. Why wouldn't they produce them, given the generally good reception?I think you're overestimating the influence of Wizkids, personally.
Because this is exactly how a business executive would say 'We have considered a more affordable alternative, but would rather not deter anyone from the more expensive option.'
Yeah, I just don't understand why "we're not going to make pogs, but we're seriously
looking into pawns" isn't enough.
You're not thinking it through, profit is the important thing not gross revenue. They only make licensing fees or retailing markup from Wizkids. They get the whole shebang from pawns. There is likely incentive for them to make "the cheaper alternative" (just guessing about margins, of course).
You're also ignoring the fact that they are quite comfortable saying "we can't do that, we won't make enough money" if that's the reason. (ie the reason they don't do hardcover compilations of APs - a pretty extreme case, but still).
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I also find it very ironic that Erik would flame the idea of doing POGs for Pathfinder, when in the PATHFINDER CORE RULEBOOK ITSELF! the examples of play use what is obviously a cardboard pog on a flipstyle mat. (See page 192 of the Pathfinder Core Rulebook for one of MANY instances where POGS are used to represent PCs, NPCs and Monsters in tactical situations).
Maybe the guys who actually created the game just thought they were better to use. :D
So how about a comment on that, Erik?
Erik was one of the guys who actually created the game. Also, he did reply in the other thread that such visualisation is the easiest to use in a rulebook - if you can imagine a top-down photo of pawns as a viable example that's great, because I can't.
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If someone really wants a POG alternative, they might be better off trying to get a 3PP on board.
I think Paizo would have to consider the possibility if another publisher was willing to buy a license to produce the product, then make a product which Paizo approves as up to their standards. After all, that is what they have done with metal minis, plastic minis, paper minis, & terrain.
Even most of the GameMastery line were originally produced by 3rd parties, then brought into the GameMastery fold.
What about the Paper Minis?I would love to see them offer this exact artwork as a physical product on high quality die-cut card stock with a base system that represented creatures 'size' footprint on a GameMastery style flipmat aid. But I don't want to print out, cut out, laminate and mount paper minis/pogs or pawns much the same way that someone who is buying Pre-Painted miniatures doesn't want to assemble, prep and paint pewter/lead/plastic miniature models.
Sure, I get your point, but I use them regularly and they are quite durable even on standard office paper. It sure does take some time to cut and glue them but then again they are really, really cheap. And if you are preparing a session, assembling only the minis you are most likely to need during that session isn't that much of an effort.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Because this is exactly how a business executive would say 'We have considered a more affordable alternative, but would rather not deter anyone from the more expensive option.'
Yeah, I just don't understand why "we're not going to make pogs, but we're seriously
looking into pawns" isn't enough.
It's also how a business executive would say "we're working out stuff like the exact makeup of potential products, and what the manufacturing costs and possible price points might be for said products." You know, the sorts of thing we have to do before we actually know whether a product makes any business sense or not.