Ok, say I have +3d6 sneak attack, and I'm attacking a flat-footed enemy.
So I roll 3d6 twice.
Sap Adept gives me twice he number of sneak attack dice rolled as bonus damage on that attack. Do I actually use 6 as the number of dice rolled for a +12 bonus, or does it still only give +6?
Also... what are reliable ways to make people flat footed? I think even being invisible doesn't do that.
Yes, they work like that. 6d6 + 12 damage.
Invisibility, catching them unaware, stealth.
There's a lot of debate over whether Scout archetype would work, since it says "As if they are flat-footed." They aren't flat-footed, just treated as if. It's weird.
As far as i know you do weapon damage + 3d6 sneak attack + (3d6+xdx weapon damage) sap master, meaning you get 6d6 + xdx from sap adept.
If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
Only because its not multiplied on a critical hit doesn´t mean its not all sneak attack damage. You don´t substract DR from your weapon damage and sneak attack damage both either.
I'm pretty sure that being invisible does not make the enemy flat-footed. They lose their Dex bonus to AC against your attacks, but that's not the same as flat-footed really.
Hmm, scout archetype may work... But yeah I see how that might be debatable, will check with the GM about that.
Yea, huh. I guess FF is explicitly before they've acted. There are a number of rogue talents that help with this though.
Check out Snap Shot, and blunt arrows. Take out one enemy before combat proper has started with your natural 20 Init. Remember, Init checks are Dex cehcks, and so it's an autosuccess. Which I guess could mean you go before anyone, no matter what. Maybe. If you stretch it a bit.
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I really find it annoying the put this cheesy combination in the game. My friend is building a character that is going to be punching out dragons and demons for non-lethal damage for obscene amounts of nonlethal damage with the whole Sap Adept/Master, Enforcer, Shatter Defenses feat line. He's basically going to hit a dragon, make his Intimidation check, and leave the thing shaken for 30 plus rounds, then do 16d16+32 damage per attack for four or five attacks per round. He might even pick Medusa's Wrath to up the number of attacks.
It's pure cheese. But all legal by RAW because the game designers often fail to think out the possible combinations that lead to this kind of cheese. By RAW causing someone to be Shaken by Intimidate isn't even a mind-effecting effect, so they can use it against creatures immune to mind-effecting effects. I really hope Buhlman or one of the Paizo rule guys tamps down on the cheese before I'm arguing with a player over him knocking out a dragon with nonlethal damage that is much more effective than people using lethal damage.
a non-optimized sapmaster hardly does more damage than the average warrior.
Yes, it made the rogue quite good damage wise, but it's no archer-warrior.
Enforcer, Shatter defenses etc. is quite feat starving, I would just go sap master scout/ninja and sling every non-dragon into oblivion. I can see that the last books created a possible damage output that instantly kills dragons or balors, players should also try to create fun and not sap it to death, or gun it to death.
For the Scout archetype, "as if" should be in every respect, so in my book it works, except errataed otherwise.
@Maddigan:
Which level is your friend? 4 or 5 attacks are quite much and i wonder how he comes by them. As far as i remember a level 20 rogue has 3 attacks, with haste 4 maximum. He still has to hit what is not so easy normally with such builds.
Then, there is no instant take out or slaying with this either. By the time you can do this amount of damage, most foes should be able to stand it. If not, put in one more. Massive Damage optional rule does also not trigger on nonlethal damage and anyway the DC is only 15.
Also take a look that your players fulfill all feat requirements.
Shatter defenses is no way vefore level 10 or 11 for a rogue type.
He's a ninja. He already gets the double sap damage plus 2 per die with the scout ability. He has Enforcer. He's working towards Shatter Defenses, which he gets around level 10 or 11. He ki points for the extra attack and is planning to get haste or possibly two-weapon fighting.
But seriously, what ability causes a creature to become shaken for 30 plus rounds with no saving throw? I mean really, who let this slip by. Enforcer is ridiculous. Every single attack that hits he gets to make an intimidate check for free. Then he makes one, the enemy is shaken for his damage in rounds. So he basically has to make one Intimdate check and he has Sap Master damage for the entire combat regardless of flanking, invisibility or anything else. It's pretty ridiculous. He's averaging 66 points a hit from just sneak attack damage. (12d6+24). That is better than a fighter at level 12. At level 20 he is averaging 110 points a hit. No crit or anything. That is better than a fighter.
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He's a ninja. He already gets the double sap damage plus 2 per die with the scout ability. He has Enforcer. He's working towards Shatter Defenses, which he gets around level 10 or 11. He ki points for the extra attack and is planning to get haste or possibly two-weapon fighting.How is he both a scout and a ninja? You can't mix those two rogue archetypes can you?
Scout replaces Uncanny Dodge and Imp Uncanny Dodge.
Ninja has both Uncanny Dodge and Imp Uncanny Dodge.
Archetypes can stack as long as they don't replace the same abilities, so Scout/Ninja is a valid combination.
Well, ki extra attack doesn´t stack with haste spell or speed weapon ability. Two weapon fighting gives at least -2 attack and normally for a ninja hitting is not the most easy task. Don´t be blended by average damage, consider how often he will hit and it looks different. Also he has to hit the first time to start enforcer. Then it is a heavy feat investment, a fighter can do much more with so many feats.
I agree that the duration is ridiculous though.
There are many and more creatures that are not so easily shaken though and you have to make that roll.
Also a lot of creatures like all undead for example don´t take nonlethal damage. Those are things also to consider.
This build looks awesome, but it has its downsides and weaknesses like all specialized builds.
You can have a rogue/ninja save or die build too, but only use it so often each day and some creatures are immune to it or will just always make their saves.
But trust me, unless he takes the bludgeoner feat, what is one feat more in a already long chain, or some weapons that only deal nonlethal damage (and then he has weapon focus on that) he has to use improved unarmed strike. That leaves mainly amulett of mighty fists for bonus to hit and it just too expensive. Even at level 11 a +3 is the most he can get. Maybe +2 from invisibility and flanking another +2. But he still won´t hit so often, the lower BAB takes care of that, i know from my own experience.
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I think the reason it's "flat footed" and not "denied dex bonus" is that Sap isn't intended for use in combat.
It's sneaking up behind guards and knocking them unconcious in one blow.
I think the reason it's "flat footed" and not "denied dex bonus" is that Sap isn't intended for use in combat.
It's sneaking up behind guards and knocking them unconcious in one blow.
Basically, it turns you into Garrett.
Basically, it turns you into Garrett.
EXACTLY.
Rogues in World of Warcraft also.
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I really find it annoying the put this cheesy combination in the game. My friend is building a character that is going to be punching out dragons and demons for non-lethal damage for obscene amounts of nonlethal damage with the whole Sap Adept/Master, Enforcer, Shatter Defenses feat line. He's basically going to hit a dragon, make his Intimidation check, and leave the thing shaken for 30 plus rounds, then do 16d16+32 damage per attack for four or five attacks per round. He might even pick Medusa's Wrath to up the number of attacks.
It's pure cheese. But all legal by RAW because the game designers often fail to think out the possible combinations that lead to this kind of cheese. By RAW causing someone to be Shaken by Intimidate isn't even a mind-effecting effect, so they can use it against creatures immune to mind-effecting effects. I really hope Buhlman or one of the Paizo rule guys tamps down on the cheese before I'm arguing with a player over him knocking out a dragon with nonlethal damage that is much more effective than people using lethal damage.
If he stands still next to a dragon, that is. Which means he's in danger of being torn apart by a full attack. If he can even reach the highly mobile flying tank in the first place.
You use six as the number of dice rolled. That's why sap master is worded the way it is.
But seriously, what ability causes a creature to become shaken for 30 plus rounds with no saving throw? I mean really, who let this slip by. Enforcer is ridiculous. Every single attack that hits he gets to make an intimidate check for free. Then he makes one, the enemy is shaken for his damage in rounds. So he basically has to make one Intimdate check and he has Sap Master damage for the entire combat regardless of flanking, invisibility or anything else. It's pretty ridiculous. He's averaging 66 points a hit from just sneak attack damage. (12d6+24). That is better than a fighter at level 12. At level 20 he is averaging 110 points a hit. No crit or anything. That is better than a fighter.
Ok, I'm not arguing the duration is not silly. It is.
But can you explain to me that part about why it allows him to get Sap Master damage each round? Why does "a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks" (the shaken condition) equal "flat-footed" (the requirement for Sap Master damage)?Because it doesn't. If that rogue player told you it does, he's either wrong or lying.
If you let that happen in your game, then of course it seems ridiculously powerful.
Ok, I'm not arguing the duration is not silly. It is.
But can you explain to me that part about why it allows him to get Sap Master damage each round? Why does "a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks" (the shaken condition) equal "flat-footed" (the requirement for Sap Master damage)?
Because it doesn't. If that rogue player told you it does, he's either wrong or lying.If you let that happen in your game, then of course it seems ridiculously powerful.
Two words: Shatter Defenses.
Two words: Shatter Defenses.Ok, I'm not arguing the duration is not silly. It is.
But can you explain to me that part about why it allows him to get Sap Master damage each round? Why does "a –2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks" (the shaken condition) equal "flat-footed" (the requirement for Sap Master damage)?
Because it doesn't. If that rogue player told you it does, he's either wrong or lying.If you let that happen in your game, then of course it seems ridiculously powerful.
13 Words: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Sap Adept, Sap Master, 10th level requirement.
At the earliest, you'd get this at level 10. And you'd probably have to take Weapon Focus (Sap). Even then that'll require a full-round action every so often.
Realistically though, Shatter Defenses should have denied them their Dex Bonus rather than make them Flat-footed.
Also, forget about using your hands, take Bludgeoner and then go Tetsubo upside that dragon's head!
if you want to break the game with sap master do it with style:
alchemist vivisectionist (for sneak attack) beastmorpher (for pounce later on), then you can later rake, pounce, grab and constrict with everything the alchemist has got to buff you.
I think I did the math once and I came a bit over 1k in average damage. So now you can one-shot Orcus (CR 36) at level 16-17, so what?
Anyhow, responsible players don't try to break the game, but rather be realisticly optimized like a scout sap master who does one very good blow per round and still has a move action to do cool stuff and has lots of free feats to to thing outside of combat (something I get the feeling other people don't know of that time).
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13 Words: Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, Shatter Defenses, Sap Adept, Sap Master, 10th level requirement.
At the earliest, you'd get this at level 10.
You mean 8.
Ninja
Level 1: Sap Adept (Requires sneak attack 1d6)
Level 2: Weapon Training (Weapon Focus)
Level 3: Enforcer (Requires 1 rank intimidate)
Level 5: Sap Master (Requires sneak attack 3d6)
Level 7: Dazzling Display (Reqires WF)
Level 8: Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses (Requires WF, DD, BAB+6)
And if you allow a Ninja to take Rogue archetypes, Thug grants Frightening (Ex) so you can trade in all those rounds of Shaken for 1 round of Frightened.
Oh yea, I mentally spent Combat Trick earlier.
And if you allow a Ninja to take Rogue archetypes, Thug grants Frightening (Ex) so you can trade in all those rounds of Shaken for 1 round of Frightened.
Ninjas don't have the trapfinding to give up to take the thug archetype.
Its a shame, I know.
alchemist vivisectionist (for sneak attack) beastmorpher (for pounce later on), then you can later rake, pounce, grab and constrict with everything the alchemist has got to buff you.
I think I did the math once and I came a bit over 1k in average damage. So now you can one-shot Orcus (CR 36) at level 16-17, so what?
Just call me curious here, it sounds like a good combo, but how are you making them flat-footed pounce after pounce? Rogues/Ninjas have the scout archetype for that.
prototype00
Just call me curious here, it sounds like a good combo, but how are you making them flat-footed pounce after pounce? Rogues/Ninjas have the scout archetype for that.
They start the combat flat footed, just beat them on initiative. Are you really going to need a second pounce?
Just call me curious here, it sounds like a good combo, but how are you making them flat-footed pounce after pounce? Rogues/Ninjas have the scout archetype for that.They start the combat flat footed, just beat them on initiative. Are you really going to need a second pounce?
If there's more than one enemy, probably.
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I think the reason it's "flat footed" and not "denied dex bonus" is that Sap isn't intended for use in combat.
It's sneaking up behind guards and knocking them unconcious in one blow.
A couple of rogues with the distracting attack rogue talent would be good with this.
Distracting Attack** (Ex): A rogue with this talent can make sneak attacks with subtle flourishes that disorient and distract her enemy. When she hits a creature with a melee attack that deals sneak attack damage, she can forgo the additional damage to cause the creature to become flat-footed against one target of her choosing until the beginning of her next turn. The rogue cannot designate herself as the creature gaining the benefit of this talent. Creatures with uncanny dodge are immune to distracting attack.
There is also Catch off Guard but that only works if you can make them unarmed, and then beat them down with a table leg, or some other blunt, non-weapon.
And if you allow a Ninja to take Rogue archetypes, Thug grants Frightening (Ex) so you can trade in all those rounds of Shaken for 1 round of Frightened.Ninjas don't have the trapfinding to give up to take the thug archetype.
Its a shame, I know.
prototype00
Ninja´s could trade in poison use and and their crap ability no trace.
Ninja´s could trade in poison use and and their crap ability no trace.
And if you allow a Ninja to take Rogue archetypes, Thug grants Frightening (Ex) so you can trade in all those rounds of Shaken for 1 round of Frightened.Ninjas don't have the trapfinding to give up to take the thug archetype.
Its a shame, I know.
prototype00
They could, but it's GM dependent.
Question for those answering the OP, is it really set in stone that Sap adept (and really, anything that triggers off SA dice) goes off the doubled value from Sap Master? Because my reading of it is that your actual SA dice number doesn't change, you just roll them twice. So in the OP example you would be getting +6 from Sap adept, not +12.
prototype00
Benefit: Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage, you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled.
Sap Master makes you roll your sneak attack dice twice.
Sap Adept says that if you roll a sneak attack die, you add two damage.
If you roll 3 sneak attack dice, you add 6 damage.
If you roll 6, you add 12.
Well, sap master says: "roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack."
Sap adept then: "you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled."
IT says its all sneak attack rolls, so....actually you include your weapon damage too. Lets say its 1d8, then with 3d6 sneak attack you would do 2d8+6d6+16 nonlethal damage.
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Well, sap master says: "roll your sneak attack dice twice, totaling the results as your nonlethal sneak attack damage for that attack."
Sap adept then: "you gain a bonus on your damage roll equal to twice the number of sneak attack damage dice you rolled."
IT says its all sneak attack rolls, so....actually you include your weapon damage too. Lets say its 1d8, then with 3d6 sneak attack you would do 2d8+6d6+16 nonlethal damage.
@bolded words:
Wha? I don't think so.
I think it might be worth going unarmed since you can take knockout artist and get +(level) in damage. Even if you have to use an amulet. Or you could use merciful gauntlets. (which I know is a whole other discussion on whether they count as unarmed strikes etc....)
So is there anything preventing you from doing all this with a weapon that has Merciful on it?
Well, ki extra attack doesn´t stack with haste spell or speed weapon ability. Two weapon fighting gives at least -2 attack and normally for a ninja hitting is not the most easy task. Don´t be blended by average damage, consider how often he will hit and it looks different. Also he has to hit the first time to start enforcer. Then it is a heavy feat investment, a fighter can do much more with so many feats.
I agree that the duration is ridiculous though.
There are many and more creatures that are not so easily shaken though and you have to make that roll.
Also a lot of creatures like all undead for example don´t take nonlethal damage. Those are things also to consider.This build looks awesome, but it has its downsides and weaknesses like all specialized builds.
You can have a rogue/ninja save or die build too, but only use it so often each day and some creatures are immune to it or will just always make their saves.But trust me, unless he takes the bludgeoner feat, what is one feat more in a already long chain, or some weapons that only deal nonlethal damage (and then he has weapon focus on that) he has to use improved unarmed strike. That leaves mainly amulett of mighty fists for bonus to hit and it just too expensive. Even at level 11 a +3 is the most he can get. Maybe +2 from invisibility and flanking another +2. But he still won´t hit so often, the lower BAB takes care of that, i know from my own experience.
Is the ninja ki abilty different from the monk? The monk extra attack stacks with haste, at least in the Core Rulebook.
Who wouldn't take that many feats to do an average of 110 points of damage a hit at lvl 20? Even with three attacks that 330 points.
What, Rogues dangerous in combat? Somebody call the Balance Squad!
Ridiculous and dangerous in combat are two different things. I'm not DMing. But I'll tell you, imagining a rogue pummeling a dragon with nonlethal damage far in excess of what he would do with his metal weapons rub me the wrong way as a DM.
It's stinkiest, dirtiest kind of cheese I've yet seen. It's the ultimate in player abuse and I'm betting Paizo will take forever to fix it, even though all they have to do is fix one of the feats in the chain to knock this carefully structured cheese off the pedestal.
Wasn't there a rule somewhere that a GM might rule a sneak attack impossible because critical areas are not reachable?
this might be the case for dragons
@prototype00, I believe he used guns, they are bludgeoning after all. And pounce does not repeat the melee requirement from charge. If you don't play as intended, why use the rules as intended?
But he also had those shatter defenses feats and all that, I would never want to play it, scout archetype and 1 shot each round is more than enough for me.
Wasn't there a rule somewhere that a GM might rule a sneak attack impossible because critical areas are not reachable?
this might be the case for dragons@prototype00, I believe he used guns, they are bludgeoning after all. And pounce does not repeat the melee requirement from charge. If you don't play as intended, why use the rules as intended?
But he also had those shatter defenses feats and all that, I would never want to play it, scout archetype and 1 shot each round is more than enough for me.
Pounce (Ex)
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack (including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability).Attacking on a Charge
After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
Notice how to pounce you have to make a charge and to charge you have to make Melee attacks.
Also if that plan failed i would hate to be right next to the gun i just ran up on.
i would assume that guy at least didn't provoke from attack or reloading otherwise he is getting wailed on.
@Talonhawke
full attack clearly replaces "single melee attack" or you could do both, so it's not exactly repeated, so you could "charge" your friend and instead of doing the single melee attack you do a full attack with a ranged weapon against the ennemy.
(don't worry, I don't expect a reasonable GM to agree, but the wording could be twisted this way)
Wasn't there a rule somewhere that a GM might rule a sneak attack impossible because critical areas are not reachable?
this might be the case for dragons
Honestly I seriously doubt that the character could get close enough to the dragon and catch it flatfooted.
Dragon Senses and great perception.
It would get at least an AoO on you.
And you still have to get past it's AC which Flat footed doesn't make any easier.
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What, Rogues dangerous in combat? Somebody call the Balance Squad!Ridiculous and dangerous in combat are two different things. I'm not DMing. But I'll tell you, imagining a rogue pummeling a dragon with nonlethal damage far in excess of what he would do with his metal weapons rub me the wrong way as a DM.
It's stinkiest, dirtiest kind of cheese I've yet seen. It's the ultimate in player abuse and I'm betting Paizo will take forever to fix it, even though all they have to do is fix one of the feats in the chain to knock this carefully structured cheese off the pedestal.
Sap Master does his attack.
*Whatever* full attacks him.
Sap Master is dead.
No change from a regular rogue here.
The problem is that "Sap Master does his attack. *Whatever* is dead or unconscious".
The damage gets really really high. There is a chance you miss, but with the rake, pounce, constrict guide you have so many attacks, enough will hit to kill anything not immune to nonlethal damage.
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The problem is that "Sap Master does his attack. *Whatever* is dead or unconscious".
The damage gets really really high. There is a chance you miss, but with the rake, pounce, constrict guide you have so many attacks, enough will hit to kill anything not immune to nonlethal damage.
If one guy is throwing all this around Sap master is the least of your worries.
@Talonhawke
full attack clearly replaces "single melee attack" or you could do both, so it's not exactly repeated, so you could "charge" your friend and instead of doing the single melee attack you do a full attack with a ranged weapon against the ennemy.
(don't worry, I don't expect a reasonable GM to agree, but the wording could be twisted this way)
I swear to god if anyone tried to pull that s@#! at my table, I'd hit them with the CRB.
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
Movement During a Charge: You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.
You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles). You must move to the closest space from which you can attack the [b]opponent. If this space is occupied or otherwise blocked, you can't charge.[/b] If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can't charge. Helpless creatures don't stop a charge.
If you don't have line of sight to the opponent at the start of your turn, you can't charge that opponent.
...trimmed information...
Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Yea sure, let's take a strict RAW reading instead of RAI. Go ahead and pounce with your firearm. I'm not stopping you. The AoOs you'll be provoking from reloading or firing right next to an enemy will though.
Because you can't charge an ally. Only an opponent. That is, of course, if you read it Strictly RAW, which we clearly are since he's arguing that you can make a full-attack with anything.
Cheapy it's an alchemist, he won't reload a gun during a full attack, he will have 10-11 +1 merciful guns on weapon cords.
Also you are taking this way to serious, I meant that the interpretation of pouncing someone (you can declare partymember opponents) and shooting ennemies makes just as much sense as a character who can do an average of 1500 damage the first round of combat, which (before you jump on that) makes just as much sense as a pistolero with 11 guns on weapon strings.
No offense meant, I clearly stated that the interpreation had nothing to do with any intentions of rules, paizo or anyone else, I just wanted to bring the shatter defense ninja down by reductio ad absurdum, and the pouncing, raking, constricting 11 guns wielding alchemist is absurd.
I have Favored Enemy (Munchkins). Sorry.
Cheapy it's an alchemist, he won't reload a gun during a full attack, he will have 10-11 +1 merciful guns on weapon cords.
Only if he has 10-11 arms.
Weapon Cord: "However, you cannot switch to a different weapon without first untying the cord (a full-round action) or cutting it (a move action or an attack, hardness 0, 0 hp)."
Also, Sap Master says it has to be a BLUDGEONING nonlethal weapon.
So I don't see how it can be used with a gun...
EDIT: Nm, I see all the guns are listed as "B and P" so I'm guessing there's some kind of blunt ammo type.
prototype00 is the one of the first people to pitch the sap mastery rogue. It's the only type of rogue I'll ever consider of playing as well.