I like racial flavor options. biologically or culturally some races will be better at certain professions. however, some options (like the human sorcerer one) should be generic.The Human option isn't necessarily better than the Elven racial bonus which gives you an advantage against spell resistance.
Hence the words "some" and "like." Indicating that it wasn't a complete list or a fully developed system free of bugs. Also "should" indicates that this is an opinion. ;-)
Yes. You speak about the downside of prepared casting, noting you may not have the right spell memorized. I would point out whenever you gain a level as a sorcerer you have to pick spells known. This list is very small, and you can't change it again until higher level. At least a wizard can wait a day and memorize something different, the sorcerer is stuck with the same tiny list day after day.
That is the primary advantage of the wizard, lots and lots of known spells. They have to prepare ahead, but they can prepare a different list everyday if they want.
Now, the human favored class bonus option in the APG for sorcerers is amazing, and will give the sorcerer more spells known, but even with that, they will still have less spells known than the wizard, (as well as less HP and skills)
Totally agree with you here. My group plays a little different though, which changes my perspective a little bit.
My GM likes to keep track of food, and then give us so little gold and equipment that we end up having to eat our own shoes at low levels. When we got to level 10 we were happy to have ONE magical item, and our poor Barbarian's magic weapon was constantly cursed.
Even when we're playing in a slightly more magical world however, things are more rare than just walking into the local magic shop and picking it up.
So when I make a character, I make him naked, with maybe one consideration for a magic item. In 3.5, I still picked a wizard, because I had Master Specialist and other options like Malconvoker.
In Pathfinder, I'm torn completely in half, especially with options like the Sage Sorcerer and the Human ARF. I feel less confident about my school restrictions when I don't have a host of splatbooks to draw my spell list from. And the idea of getting the discussed 63 spells known, automatically without any effort at all, it's pretty appealing.
You compare the Wizard and Sorcerer at levels 4 and 5. Lets look at levels 8 and 9...
The Sorc now gets 20 and 21 spells respectively (not including primary stat bonuses), while the Wizard gets 12 and 14 respectively. That Wizard is casting Teleport now, which will hijack This Thread, but I think you would agree that the difference is huge at this point.
Hit level 10, well, now the Sorcerer has a fifth level spell too, but also has 26 castings a day compared to the Wizard's 16. A good Human sorcerer might not have Teleport yet still, but he certainly has a lot more staying power while still knowing 26 spells he can cast spontaneously. If you're not me, and your GM isn't stingy, those precious scrolls the Wizard is spending all day etching could be used by the Sorcerer to make up for the lack of versatility and are usable in that odd circumstance.
If I knew that the campaign was going to end at level 7, then sure, the difference is minor, and Wizard may be a better choice. But as you level up, the Sorcerer flowers, and it becomes harder to say that the Wizard is hands down the better choice anymore.
Not suggesting that you were saying that "wizards are hands down the better choice" but I thought I'd point out that the comparison starts to polarize with experience points.
I grok the spells known and the skills, but why would it make a diffrence in Hit Points?
Now, the human favored class bonus option in the APG for sorcerers is amazing, and will give the sorcerer more spells known, but even with that, they will still have less spells known than the wizard, (as well as less HP and skills)
Because the sorcerer would have to be a little crazy to use his favored class bonus at level-up to get an extra HP, whereas the wizard mostly might as well do so.
I tend to play wizards. A wizard has to pay just once to add a spell to his or her spellbook. There can be situations where multiple castings of spells are required over the course of multiple days (say, endure elements for the party and their mounts while traveling in the winter). While it's true that both the wizard and sorcerer can purchase wands and scrolls for their utility spells, the cost for doing so can be prohibitive, especially at lower levels.
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it can even be worth it, but it's totally unfair.
Well sure. Its also horribly unfair Sorcerer's dont have access to things like the applicable Arcane Discoveries that would be massively cool for them... like True Name. Or the one where Wizards can talk to animals. Or Immortality.
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it can even be worth it, but it's totally unfair.Well sure. Its also horribly unfair Sorcerer's dont have access to things like the applicable Arcane Discoveries that would be massively cool for them... like True Name. Or the one where Wizards can talk to animals. Or Immortality.
I don't like that those are wizard only. "discoveries" should be caster specific feats and they should have prerequisites. For example Speak With Animals should be Druid/ nature cleric/ nature sorcer only
I don't like that those are wizard only. "discoveries" should be caster specific feats and they should have prerequisites. For example Speak With Animals should be Druid/ nature cleric/ nature sorcer onlyit can even be worth it, but it's totally unfair.Well sure. Its also horribly unfair Sorcerer's dont have access to things like the applicable Arcane Discoveries that would be massively cool for them... like True Name. Or the one where Wizards can talk to animals. Or Immortality.
Pfft... Wizards can speak with animals WITHOUT the feat.
*Has glorious conversation about pudding and the fighter's napsack with familiar*
Because the sorcerer would have to be a little crazy to use his favored class bonus at level-up to get an extra HP, whereas the wizard mostly might as well do so.I grok the spells known and the skills, but why would it make a diffrence in Hit Points?
Now, the human favored class bonus option in the APG for sorcerers is amazing, and will give the sorcerer more spells known, but even with that, they will still have less spells known than the wizard, (as well as less HP and skills)
This.
Those extra spells known for the human Sorcerer favored class bonus aren't free spells. You give up the other favored class options to take it.
(still worth it, but it does mean you will have less HP than the average wizard)
Yes. You speak about the downside of prepared casting, noting you may not have the right spell memorized. I would point out whenever you gain a level as a sorcerer you have to pick spells known. This list is very small, and you can't change it again until higher level. At least a wizard can wait a day and memorize something different, the sorcerer is stuck with the same tiny list day after day.
That is the primary advantage of the wizard, lots and lots of known spells. They have to prepare ahead, but they can prepare a different list everyday if they want.
Now, the human favored class bonus option in the APG for sorcerers is amazing, and will give the sorcerer more spells known, but even with that, they will still have less spells known than the wizard, (as well as less HP and skills)
and this is why the good lord of Pathfinder invented scrolls...
that old song "i can do anything you can do, better" comes to mind lol, you want to make the worlds best caster? i will tell you the hidden master foo.
first play a sorcerer.
second take leadership
third get a wizard from leadership
fourth force that wizard to scribe scrolls for you in his down time.fifth kick ass with primary sorcerer spell choices and have unlimited utility (as a wizard) in the process, oh and lets not forget you have a wizard licking you boots clean every night before bed lol. <---- proof that sorcerers are better then wizards :P
Oh god....must...feed...trollllll......
Or you could take a commoner with a high Cha and have him take the leadership feat and have him take a sorcerer with leadership who takes a wizard with leadership who takes a druid with leadership....
Or the best caster of all...the rogue with UMD and every scroll in the game x 1000!!!
Or we could discuss actual points. Let me know if you come up with some.
As nice as unlimited spells known are – and it is sweet – it creates an issue that I haven’t seen brought up. Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.
Party: “We are going to the bar/carnival/visit family/get laid/have random fun.”
Wizard: “I’ll be here doing my thing... alone... for 8 hours a day... every day.”
As nice as unlimited spells known are – and it is sweet – it creates an issue that I haven’t seen brought up. Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.
Party: “We are going to the bar/carnival/visit family/get laid/have random fun.”
Wizard: “I’ll be here doing my thing... alone... for 8 hours a day... every day.”
My group typically hand waves stuff like that (except item creation). Wizard downtime happens, we just role play around it.
It seems like noobs take Sorc over wizards as they seem to feel like they are easier to manage.Some of us vets play sorcerers too. I find their limits increase my creativity.
Oh yes!
I am sure you have seen the "clerics feather fall" on the last order of the stick, I sometimes like to call fireball the "wizards lockpick".
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It seems like noobs take Sorc over wizards as they seem to feel like they are easier to manage.Then these noobs discover that Sorcerers are actually harder to build than Wizards. They get discouraged. They post ludicrous theorycrafting posts on Internet messageboards about how Wizards are stronger than Sorcerers because they haven't learned yet how to optimize a Sorcerer.
Remember, it's not how many different spells your character can cast that matters. Its how effective he is with the spells he can cast. Not that wizards can actually cast all that many more spells.
Meh from my experence they dont get discourged, there happy knowing mage armour and shield as there first level spells, and casting mage armour, followed by shield first and second round of combat every combat, even at 10th level.
One advantage (that rarely ever comes into play) for a Sorcerer is the lack of a spellbook. Their spells known can't ever be taken from them. Same deal with Eschew Materials.
Ooh! That's a really good point to bring up. I play wizards a lot, and I'm always worrying about my spellbooks getting lost or destroyed. Sorcerers and other non-book casters definitely have the advantage here. I'll never forget when my wizard fell into the sea and her spellbook got wet... T^T
To be quite honest, I tend to go back and forth between prepared casters like witch and wizard and spontaneous casters like sorcerer, bard and oracle (Yes, I know the oracle's a divine caster; I'm just using it as an example). I always love the wizard spell list (can't get enough illusion spells) and the wizard and witch's ability to learn almost any spell on the spell list. On the other hand, a lot of the spontaneous casters have cool abilities. I keep looking through the sorcerer bloodlines and oracle mysteries, and I think "OMG! I'd love to be able to do that!" Yeah, the wizards have the school abilities, but they don't really compare to some of the bloodline powers or mystery revelations.
Ultimately, though I prefer the wizard, I think both of them are very good classes and I wouldn't mind playing either. ^_^
Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.My group typically hand waves stuff like that (except item creation). Wizard downtime happens, we just role play around it.
I’m curious, do y’all skip over that time and only roleplay after the wizard is done? Or do you give the wizard extra hours in the day? Or what?
I'm surprised this thread got to 20 posts before it became "LT vs. The World".
+1.
It would be easier to sort out peace in the Middle East than to convince LT that sorcerer isn't the strongest class.
Ooh! That's a really good point to bring up. I play wizards a lot, and I'm always worrying about my spellbooks getting lost or destroyed. Sorcerers and other non-book casters definitely have the advantage here. I'll never forget when my wizard fell into the sea and her spellbook got wet... T^T
Right... Who would expect when pretty much every class in the game has to deal with encumbrance, item drawing action economy, sunders, stealing, etc, that those things would also apply to spellbooks? Sure, perpetually having your spellbook targetted for bad things is not nice, but you can hardly NOT expect it never to happen, probably multiple times thru-out your adventuring career. There are Feats specifically so Wizards can continue to use certain spells without their spellbook, after all.
As nice as unlimited spells known are – and it is sweet – it creates an issue that I haven’t seen brought up. Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.
I tend to think of Wizards as the "geeks" of Pathfinder.
Party: “We are going to the bar/carnival/visit family/get laid/have random fun.”Wizard: “I’ll be here doing my thing... alone... for 8 hours a day... every day.”
Compared to
Non-geek: "We are going to the bar/party/dancing/get laid/have random fun."
Geek: "I'll be at home doing my thing, posting the paizo boards, reading, playing video games...alone...for 8 hours a day...every day."
Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.My group typically hand waves stuff like that (except item creation). Wizard downtime happens, we just role play around it.I’m curious, do y’all skip over that time and only roleplay after the wizard is done? Or do you give the wizard extra hours in the day? Or what?
Between adventures is kind of a hand wave for us. Other characters spend time at their temple, training, handling animals etc. And there is nothing to say you can not go to the fun stuff after 5:00 :)
to the original post: we have one person who will always play a sorcerer (with haste, & wish) and one who will (almost) always play a wizard.
I think their role in the party is the large difference between the two. If you want a buffer or DPS, sorcerer works well. If you need a jack-of-all trades, artificer, fact finder, it is wizard. Personally I can enjoyably play either (hmm... again based on the role I choose :)
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Speaking of which, when is Treantmonk's Guide to Commoners coming out?Oh god....must...feed...trollllll......
Or you could take a commoner with a high Cha and have him take the leadership feat and have him take a sorcerer...
That WAS the guide.
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It seems like noobs take Sorc over wizards as they seem to feel like they are easier to manage.
Classy.
Or maybe they just prefer them to wizards because they like the ability to cast enervation 40 times in a row whenever they want?
Or they like playing a class that can get laid without having to cast a spell from one of their prohibited schools?
It seems like noobs take Sorc over wizards as they seem to feel like they are easier to manage.Classy.
Or maybe they like playing a class that can get laid without having to cast a spell from one of their prohibited schools?
Is that really the argument you're going for?
Is that really the argument you're going for?It seems like noobs take Sorc over wizards as they seem to feel like they are easier to manage.Classy.
Or maybe they like playing a class that can get laid without having to cast a spell from one of their prohibited schools?
But it's classy!
You know, I think the summoner is the best class to pick for planar binding.
Especially master summoner.
Wizards tend to spend every moment of downtime alone learning spells and scribing scrolls (additional crafting feats make it even worse). From a roleplaying for fun standpoint it is pretty lame.My group typically hand waves stuff like that (except item creation). Wizard downtime happens, we just role play around it.I’m curious, do y’all skip over that time and only roleplay after the wizard is done? Or do you give the wizard extra hours in the day? Or what?
We play "together." Meaning no one is trying to break the game. Odd, I know. So long as nothing get's out of hand we don't worry about certain details. Not just wizard stuff. Call it communal gaming.
Actually, to comment on the issue of Planar Binding being a better option for sorcerers than wizards, I find that strictly RAW, it isn't.
Why? It's still the spells known issueConsider that to trap an outsider, you need a prepared diagram, reinforced with the appropriate Magic Circle spell and Dimensional Anchor. Strictly RAW, Magic Circle against X is a single spell known - to be able to summon a full variety of outsiders, you need to know all 4 of them (Evil, Good, Chaos, Law). Further it is wise to know dimensional anchor on top of that, and the summoning bargaining enhancers like Agonize (or threefold aspect to boost your charisma, moment of prescience, etc. ). And of course, at least one planar binding spell...
Thankfully, a fair number of gm's will allow a sorcerer to take Magic Circle as spell known, and let him choose the type of circle when cast... (similarly with the protection from spells...).
Still, it does put the ball in the wizard's court, particularly when you consider the possibility of knowledge(planes) checks to identify which outsider has both the ability and potentially the interest to help you...
Good points.
As long as we are on a spells known, I would like to submit cleric as the best planar binding class.
They have a good reason to grab some cha, they get all the planar bindings through a domain, and they know all their spells on level up with no effort at all.
Clerics don't get planar binding.Actually, to comment on the issue of Planar Binding being a better option for sorcerers than wizards, I find that strictly RAW, it isn't.
Why? It's still the spells known issueConsider that to trap an outsider, you need a prepared diagram, reinforced with the appropriate Magic Circle spell and Dimensional Anchor. Strictly RAW, Magic Circle against X is a single spell known - to be able to summon a full variety of outsiders, you need to know all 4 of them (Evil, Good, Chaos, Law). Further it is wise to know dimensional anchor on top of that, and the summoning bargaining enhancers like Agonize (or threefold aspect to boost your charisma, moment of prescience, etc. ). And of course, at least one planar binding spell...
Thankfully, a fair number of gm's will allow a sorcerer to take Magic Circle as spell known, and let him choose the type of circle when cast... (similarly with the protection from spells...).
Still, it does put the ball in the wizard's court, particularly when you consider the possibility of knowledge(planes) checks to identify which outsider has both the ability and potentially the interest to help you...
Good points.
As long as we are on a spells known, I would like to submit cleric as the best planar binding class.
They have a good reason to grab some cha, they get all the planar bindings through a domain, and they know all their spells on level up with no effort at all.
How WRONG you are good sir.
Take a gander at the Void Domain on the OGC(From Inner Sea World Guide.)
With that you get both Planar Binding AND Planar Ally for lots of Planar Cohort options.
Also, if you're a Human Cleric, you can get a +1 bonus on caster checks against outsiders as your favored class bonus - helping you overcome spell resistance. This could make you a much more reliable Planar Binder since they'll less likely be able to resist your banishment spell if something goes awry.
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Those spells are easy to get with Limited Wish - a spell which quite justifiably belongs on every Sorcerer's spell list. Also, they can, in some cases, be cast by the Sorcerer's cohort.Actually, to comment on the issue of Planar Binding being a better option for sorcerers than wizards, I find that strictly RAW, it isn't.
Why? It's still the spells known issueConsider that to trap an outsider, you need a prepared diagram, reinforced with the appropriate Magic Circle spell and Dimensional Anchor. Strictly RAW, Magic Circle against X is a single spell known - to be able to summon a full variety of outsiders, you need to know all 4 of them (Evil, Good, Chaos, Law). Further it is wise to know dimensional anchor on top of that, and the summoning bargaining enhancers like Agonize (or threefold aspect to boost your charisma, moment of prescience, etc. ). And of course, at least one planar binding spell...
Thankfully, a fair number of gm's will allow a sorcerer to take Magic Circle as spell known, and let him choose the type of circle when cast... (similarly with the protection from spells...).
Still, it does put the ball in the wizard's court, particularly when you consider the possibility of knowledge(planes) checks to identify which outsider has both the ability and potentially the interest to help you...
Wait....you aren't PBing until you get LW?
Binding spells don't become great until 14th level
You're crazy. LPB at level 9 is uber-powerful. Nightmare steed for plane shift 1/day? Or a Barghest for SLA goodies? Or just a bearded devil for straight nasty bodyguarding.
Of course a Wizard should curse them to give them a -6 on CHA. After all, we don't want a fair CHA battle do we? Just leave the CHA gimped. All it's affecting is targeted SLA DC's, which aren't the SLA's we love anyways.
There are other ways to ensure you don't lose those CHA battles too. Sorcerers may have the good hair, but Wizards have more ways to not play fair.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't normally take planar binding with a sorcerer. You just don't cast it enough. Most days you won't cast it at all.
I've only skimmed this discussion, but as a sorcerer player, I was extremely surprised to see that no one mentioned the major advantage that a sorcerer has over a Wizard; flexibility in normally inflexible situations.
Here me out on this one. Yes, normally you can leave a few spell slots unprepared as a wizard and prepare what you need as you need it. But what about situations where you don't have the time to prepare those spells? Namely, in combat. A sorcerer, in my opinion, is infinitely better than the wizard in combat situations. A sorcerer never has to worry about exhausting their supply of debuffing spells or attacking spells. They never have to fall back to cantrips or crossbows. They cast what they want, when they want to, as long as they have enough spell slots.
As a wizard, you basically have to guess the GM's game, and at the same time know exactly when it's appropriate to use your magic. As a wizard, you play chess with the GM. As a sorcerer, you go balls-to-the-wall every encounter like in a good-old fashioned game of wall ball.
On a completely unrelated note, I'm personally really tired of the "on paper" theorycraft that goes on sometimes. Especially when it's used to claim an option is terrible. Thursday night, one of my players who's extremely built for melee combat made three attack rolls in the same round and didn't beat a 10 on all three of them. Does that mean Power Attack and Furious Focus are terrible? Of course not. Stuff happens and the encounter was designed to play the character's weaknesses. Just as your GM can build an encounter to your weaknesses, you can build them to your strengths as well; even the Sea Legs feat (which I admit is pretty lackluster) can shine. Now, proving something's TOO good, I'm okay with. That happens (especially in 3.5). But proving that something's so bad it's not worth taking? A good GM can make every bad option shine (and in contrast, can make every good option look terrible. I, for one, have learned that incorporeal oozes like the Colour Out of Space is extremely nasty against a group that is mostly focused on melee damage >: ) ).
Can't do it. Bestow Curse is a touch spell. Even with spectral hand, he'd have to cross the circle to affect his target. I know of no Pathfinder way to overcome that.
You know of no way to reach through an inward focused magic circle against evil when you are a non-evil non-planar bound arcane caster?
Really?
It can't get out, but that's not a two-way street. The game is rigged.