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As I noted in the thread title, this post will contain detailed spoilers for a new creature introduced in Tomb of the Iron Medusa. Don't click under the cut if you want to avoid this!
OK, so the Nemhain is a cool idea, but as written, the creature both a) breaks established Pathfinder rules and b) is ungodly powerful for its CR.
First, the rulebreaking. The Nemhain has regeneration 5 (electricity or good). However, regeneration explicitly states the only a creature with a Con score can have regeneration. As an undead, the Nemhain has no Con score and should not have this ability.
Secondly, the Nemhain's melee attack is bizarre. For an example of what I mean, let's look at a wraith. A wraith has 'incorporeal touch +6 (1d6 negative energy plus 1d6 Con drain). There's a note in the Special Abilities section noting that targets get a Fort save to avoid the Con drain and the wraith gains hp if it drains Con. That's all fine. Now the Nemhain.
The Nemhain has 'incorporeal touch +21 (3d8 plus 1d6 Con drain). Firstly, what type of damage is it dealing? It's not using one of the recognised natural weapons, so it doesn't default to P/S/B damage. And it doesn't say if it's negative energy or elemental damage, leaving it untyped. Furthermore, there's no entry for this ability in the Special Abilities section, meaning there is *no save* against the Con drain.
I have not been able to find another creature in either Bestiary that does 1d6 Con drain on a hit, no save allowed. Futhermore, with the nemhain's 'Bound spirits' ability, it can attack with this up to twice per round. How do you feel about 6d8 damage and 2d6 Con drain, no save, no DR, no nothing? It's all untyped damage, so no death ward, either.
Furthermore - and here we get into the overpowered rather than actually incorrect or unlisted stuff - the Nemhain can cast harm up to 3 times per day, potentially healing itself up to 450 hp. This is on top of its 225 hp and incorporeal status halving damage from many common forms of attack. It's also one of those rare breed of incorporeal creatures with elemental resistances, something I don't seen any other incorporeal undead possessing. (though the incorporeal shadow demon has some.) Add to this the 1/day antilife shell and this creature is a murder machine.
Could we maybe get some clarification on the incorporeal touch, at least? Does the Con drain really have no save allowed?
Creative Director
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The new monster's basic damage from its attack should be negative energy damage, so things like death ward will grant protection from that damage.
As for its Constitution drain... remember that it's a CR 15 monster. It's supposed to be tough. Is it TOO tough for its CR? Perhaps... but a wraith is a much lower CR creature so comparasions to it should bear that in mind.
It's also worth comparing the amount of physical hp damage something that's CR 15 normally does to how much damage the nemhain does—without its Constitution damage, the nemhain is doing barely any damage at all. A lot less damage than most CR 15 monsters would do, that's for sure.
Being able to cast harm up to 3 times a day is also hardly game breaking for a CR 15 monster. A 16th level cleric can do the same, and has other options as well. And if it takes an action to do a harm, that's a round that it's NOT doing its Con damage.
As for its regeneration—that should change to fast healing... but also note that the way Pathfinder changed how regeneration works means that, unlike in 3rd edition D&D, it's not broken to give undead regeneration, since in Pathifnder, regeneration no longer converts damage to nonlethal damage (which undead are immune to). In 3rd edition, giving undead regeneration was broken, but it's not so much the case in Pathfinder—we probably could and should have removed the "Undead can't have regeneration" bit from the rules.
As for whetehr or not its 1d6 Con, no save, is a game breaker... compare that to the shadow. A CR 3 creature. It does Strength damage, no save, and if it drains you to 0 STR you die. Just as surely as if you were drained to 0 CON.
In closing, the nemhain is a tough monster. It's one of the toughest undead in the game, in fact—it's tougher than most vampires and most liches even. It's particularly devastating in one-on-one combat, but its relative lack of area effect stuff means that if you can outnumber it... it's not as bad.
Of course, if you still think it's too powerful, feel free to give a save against its Con drain. Keep in mind, though, that PCs at that level are pretty tough too! :-)
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The new monster's basic damage from its attack should be negative energy damage, so things like death ward will grant protection from that damage.
As for its Constitution drain... remember that it's a CR 15 monster. It's supposed to be tough. Is it TOO tough for its CR? Perhaps... but a wraith is a much lower CR creature so comparasions to it should bear that in mind.
It's also worth comparing the amount of physical hp damage something that's CR 15 normally does to how much damage the nemhain does—without its Constitution damage, the nemhain is doing barely any damage at all. A lot less damage than most CR 15 monsters would do, that's for sure.
Being able to cast harm up to 3 times a day is also hardly game breaking for a CR 15 monster. A 16th level cleric can do the same, and has other options as well. And if it takes an action to do a harm, that's a round that it's NOT doing its Con damage.
As for its regeneration—that should change to fast healing... but also note that the way Pathfinder changed how regeneration works means that, unlike in 3rd edition D&D, it's not broken to give undead regeneration, since in Pathifnder, regeneration no longer converts damage to nonlethal damage (which undead are immune to). In 3rd edition, giving undead regeneration was broken, but it's not so much the case in Pathfinder—we probably could and should have removed the "Undead can't have regeneration" bit from the rules.
As for whetehr or not its 1d6 Con, no save, is a game breaker... compare that to the shadow. A CR 3 creature. It does Strength damage, no save, and if it drains you to 0 STR you die. Just as surely as if you were drained to 0 CON.
In closing, the nemhain is a tough monster. It's one of the toughest undead in the game, in fact—it's tougher than most vampires and most liches even. It's particularly devastating in one-on-one combat, but its relative lack of area effect stuff means that if you can outnumber it... it's not as bad.
Of course, if you still think it's too powerful, feel free to give...
James, thank you very much for the quick response! I do take your point vis-a-vis the shadow, but it is worth noting that the shadow's strength damage is both damage rather than drain, and explicitly noted to be a negative energy effect, meaning death ward grants total immunity to it.
I guess my big problem is that the Nemhain can do no-save Con drain twice per round, with no way for a character to apply a save against the effect or resist it in any way - and with +21 incorporeal touch, its chances of missing the average adventurer are slim. If it was Con damage, or if it allowed a save, I'd be happier about it. Furthermore, bear in mind that with the 'bound spirits' ability, the Nemhain can cast harm on itself and still deal 1d6 Con drain in the same round. This ability to leverage both attack and defense simultaneously makes the Nemhain extremely potent, as my players found out earlier this evening!
Still, I appreciate that my players encounter with this creature is very fresh in my mind, so that may be colouring my opinion. Again, thanks for the swift reply.
Personally I have no issue with any of it. Then again, my target is a bit higher level, and since I'm running a 3.5e crossover, the characters have access to the 3.5e spell sheltered vitality for which there's no Pathfinder analogue.
In other words, if I surprise them, they take ability damage/drain for one round. As soon as they realize that's what they're facing ... well ... no more ability damage/drain.
CR 16 should be tough. However, I don't see one of these against a level 16 party as being quite as terrible as it seems.
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I share your concerns for this challenge.
This is soooo gonna hurt.
I have to agree with James (it's in my contract - ;>). Look at the entries for other CR 15 monsters in Bestiary 1--ancient dragons, neothelid (with the save or die psychic crush). CR 15 should be pretty deadly, especially if play is maximized by the GM. The nemhain should be an appropriately "challenging" encounter for a 14th level party.
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Well, my players did manage to take her down with only 1 death, but to be honest, I could have played her considerably nastier than I did. She managed to bottle them up in the smaller north section of the room via moving slightly back from the pillar and casting antilife shell, and then was using her Bound Spirits to deliver her Con drain while they were stuck at 10 ft. away trying to pummel her with ranged attacks.
She did use two of her harm spells on the players rather than saving them for herself, and I could have split the party in half with wall of force, then had her glide through the floor below them to circumvent the wall and attack them two at a time, which is another thing I neglected to do. In fact, she could have just stayed in a stone wall using Bound Spirits to attack out every round, without exposing herself to danger (though suffering a 50% miss chance).
I admit, I have less of a concern with save or die at this level, because allowing a save grants considerable leeway at this level. A save is much, much nicer than 1d6 Con drain. The only spells that heal Con drain take at least 10 rounds to cast, so there's no in-combat way of offsetting her attacks. Also, 'save or die' is a little misleading - the psychic crush merely drops the target to -1 hp on a failed save. One heal spell puts the psychically crushed target back up on 139 hp, none the worse for wear. Against Con drain, however, heal does nothing whatsoever.
Actually, looking at the Nemhain, if a save was allowed against the Con drain it would be DC 26, which is pretty good for that CR. (Primary ability DC on the CR table is 23.) I don't think allowing a save aganst the Con drain would be too terible, either to negate the drain as in the case of a wraith (probably too good), or to halve it (could work), or maybe to convert it into damage rather than drain on a successful save (which, on reflection, I like).
That's my humble opinion on the matter, and I'm grateful for your insights regarding this monster.
Also, Mike, the adventure as a whole is brilliant, so kudos!
Well, my players did manage to take her down with only 1 death, but to be honest, I could have played her considerably nastier than I did. She managed to bottle them up in the smaller north section of the room via moving slightly back from the pillar and casting antilife shell, and then was using her Bound Spirits to deliver her Con drain while they were stuck at 10 ft. away trying to pummel her with ranged attacks.
And that's exactly it. As a GM I've got the flexibility to play it hard or play it soft. Perfect.
Also, Mike, the adventure as a whole is brilliant, so kudos!
TYVM. I'd love to hear some more detailed feedback in this thread (with spoilers hidden) if you have a few spare moments!
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Also, Mike, the adventure as a whole is brilliant, so kudos!TYVM. I'd love to hear some more detailed feedback in this thread (with spoilers hidden) if you have a few spare moments!
Well, we haven't finished it quite yet, but we should have it completed either next Friday or next Sunday, so..watch this (or rather that) space!