Who drew the Duelist art (P. 383)?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

I see a list of artists who did the internal art, but I don't see how to map that to individuals. Who did that p383 duelist? I really think that would make a great poster.


Can you spot the weird thing about that picture? She's holding her weapon in her off-hand.

Liberty's Edge

Why do you think she's left handed?


cfalcon wrote:
Why do you think she's left handed?

Her dagger is on her left, and her scabbard is on the right. Perhaps she's doing a dazzling display or something, tossing her blade from hand to hand, but that's the sign of a left-handed duelist.

Liberty's Edge

Very good point! Yes, she's definitely a lefty. She's not really in a fighting pose, so presumably she's showing off.


If I were to hazard a guess (and I am), I'd say it's a Jason A Engle picture.

Liberty's Edge

Hrm he has a DeviantArt, but not for that one. Does Paizo sell such things?


Yep, it's Jason Engle. He illustrated all the prestige classes save for Wayne Reynolds' Eldritch Knight. It's not on all of them, but his initials can be spotted on the illos for the Loremaster and Mystic Theurge.

Silver Crusade

Left handed fencers have an advantage, since their target areas are all on the wrong side. Some fencers even cultivate a left handed stye deliberately to take advantage of this. I'm a natural lefty, but I'll testify it works.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

"Why are you smiling?"
"Because I have something to tell joo..." *throws sword into right hand* "I'm not really left handed!"


DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

"Why are you smiling?"

"Because I have something to tell joo..." *throws sword into right hand* "I'm not really left handed!"

It all makes sense, now. LOL!


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
cfalcon wrote:
Why do you think she's left handed?
Her dagger is on her left, and her scabbard is on the right. Perhaps she's doing a dazzling display or something, tossing her blade from hand to hand, but that's the sign of a left-handed duelist.

Why couldn't she draw it from her right side? I don't know much about dueling, so I'm just guessing but wouldn't it expose you less? Drawing from your opposite hip feels like it's going to expose your sholder and back a lot, and you can't really parry with an off-hand weapon at the same time, which you should be able to do if drawing from your main-hand hip.


stringburka wrote:
Why couldn't she draw it from her right side? I don't know much about dueling, so I'm just guessing but wouldn't it expose you less? Drawing from your opposite hip feels like it's going to expose your sholder and back a lot, and you can't really parry with an off-hand weapon at the same time, which you should be able to do if drawing from your main-hand hip.

Because it's awkward and takes more time.


stringburka wrote:
Why couldn't she draw it from her right side? I don't know much about dueling, so I'm just guessing but wouldn't it expose you less? Drawing from your opposite hip feels like it's going to expose your sholder and back a lot, and you can't really parry with an off-hand weapon at the same time, which you should be able to do if drawing from your main-hand hip.

Rapiers and the like are quite long. To draw a blade between 3 and 4 feet long from your hip quickly, you have to reach across and pull it up, extending your arm far enough to clear the tip from the scabbard and get it pointing where you want it.

Daggers are short enough to be drawn from your good side. To fight with both, you'd have to crossdraw both weapons, or maybe carry a dagger on your offhand side, too. In game terms, it's no biggie for a TWFer, but IRL, getting the big blade into action was the main concern. You could then crossdraw the dagger with your off hand if you had an extra second or two. Actual dueling was a rather formal thing, and both parties started with weapons drawn, anyway.


Benicio Del Espada wrote:
stringburka wrote:
Why couldn't she draw it from her right side? I don't know much about dueling, so I'm just guessing but wouldn't it expose you less? Drawing from your opposite hip feels like it's going to expose your sholder and back a lot, and you can't really parry with an off-hand weapon at the same time, which you should be able to do if drawing from your main-hand hip.

Rapiers and the like are quite long. To draw a blade between 3 and 4 feet long from your hip quickly, you have to reach across and pull it up, extending your arm far enough to clear the tip from the scabbard and get it pointing where you want it.

Daggers are short enough to be drawn from your good side. To fight with both, you'd have to crossdraw both weapons, or maybe carry a dagger on your offhand side, too. In game terms, it's no biggie for a TWFer, but IRL, getting the big blade into action was the main concern. You could then crossdraw the dagger with your off hand if you had an extra second or two. Actual dueling was a rather formal thing, and both parties started with weapons drawn, anyway.

I do understand that it would take marginally more time, but I tested it with a stick now, about 115 cm in length, from my hip and it really didn't feel awkward at all. I don't know where scabbards where usually kept, but if I assume they hang at about the same height as in the picture, I could easily draw something 130-140 centimeters.

It did feel somewhat more natural from the opposed hip, but it wasn't a big difference (both took less than a second at least) and the difference for how well I could use my left arm at the same time was huge; when drawing from my right hip (I'm right-handed) my left arm was pretty free, but when drawing from my left arm I either had to put my right shoulder in front of my body or move my right foot back.

One thing I noticed is that the direction of the draw was very different. When drawing from the opposed hip, it was left-to-right and somewhat up, so it's probably easier to strike in the same movement as drawing the weapon since when drawing from the same hip, it's an upward movement.

Does anyone have a good link on this, historically speaking? It would be an interesting read.

Liberty's Edge

Just go look around ARMA or just look into some JSA. You always draw across, never same. Those guys didn't experiment with a stick, they did it with their lives!

Anyway, I guess there's no way to get the print, which is a shame.

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