Goblin Squad Member
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As we chatted this evening (Thursday, 5/16) on the PFO-Fan TS, Lord Jessiah, Aunt Tony, and I discussed mounts in-game. We delved into what the skill animal handler might encompass, such as subskills for the various tricks and feats that a mount might be taught (combat, wearing barding, speed, maneuvering, extra stamina, etc.).
We also discussed that since the animal handler is training the mount these skills, the mount could retain these even if a new rider were not a trained animal handler. So, if ownership of mounts could be transferred, a skilled handler might make a very nice living training and selling mounts.
But what about the mechanics?
Ryan has stated elsewhere (I hope I'm recalling this correctly), that he is not keen on the idea of mounts persisting in the world separate from their rider (e.g. dismounting and leaving your horse standing outside while you step into the tavern). Mounts in many games simply disappear when the rider dismounts, rather than becoming separate entities.
Here's one suggestion of how all these ideas and concerns might be handled:
What if mounts were treated much the same as crafted items? A prospective mount trainer could buy a mount from an NPC mount dealer. Upon purchase, the mount would appear as an icon in his inventory. Upon double clicking it, the mount would appear under him. What if the player then began to apply his animal handling subskill to teach the mount how to maneuver faster? Like key words applied to items in crafting, this new modifier is being applied directly to the mount. When the mount is sufficiently trained (perhaps the training bar fills completely), the player mount trainer dismounts, the mount reverts back to an icon in his inventory, but now bearing the keyword "maneuver". He then locates a buyer, places the mount icon in the trade window, cash and mount are traded, and the new owner double clicks the mount icon and has a snappy, more maneuverable mount under him.
This would keep mounts from being separate entities from their riders, thus sparing the server extra stress, allows mounts to learn new skills, and follows what will be an already existing mechanic for hopeful ease of implementation.
Just a rough idea, but we toss out here for your consideration.
P.S. We also discussed mounted combat and how mounts could be killed, but that's a whole different topic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Hobs the Short
That doesn't really sound much different than what is available in a lot of systems already. Of course I think that the rider would need sufficient "riding" skill lvls to utilize what his mount knows too. Shouldn't be hard to add someday.
Groundbreaking news would be a deep and complex mounted combat system. But, as you wrote, that is a whole different topic.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
Though I don't claim to have played every MMO, I am not aware of a situation where you are provided the ability to improve your mount, let alone improve it through yours or another player's skills. Mounts in most of the MMOs I've played are simply speed buffed money sinks.
As for having to have the same skill the mount does to utilize its skill, I've known plenty of people who have had others train their pets or horses so that they could utilize the pet/horse's skills, but had no idea how to train that skill themselves. For instance, I might have someone train my dog to attack on command, and I can know the attack command to give it, but have no clue how to teach it to do that. Of course, this may vary with the skill being used.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
Though I don't claim to have played every MMO, I am not aware of a situation where you are provided the ability to improve your mount, let alone improve it through yours or another player's skills. Mounts in most of the MMOs I've played are simply speed buffed money sinks.
As for having to have the same skill the mount does to utilize its skill, I've known plenty of people who have had others train their pets or horses so that they could utilize the pet/horse's skills, but had no idea how to train that skill themselves. For instance, I might have someone train my dog to attack on command, and I can know the attack command to give it, but have no clue how to teach it to do that. Of course, this may vary with the skill being used.
There are several games wherein you can train your "pet" in/for combat. I just meant that training a mount would not be a stretch from that.
What I meant is that the rider should have some "ride" skills to fully utilize his mounts tricks. Not that the end rider should know how to train the mount. Those people you speak of do know more than a complete "first time rider" do they not? :)
I think it could work if mounts were basically treated like equipment--"items" to be upgraded by those with the right gear and skills. But it doesn't seem likely to end up included anytime soon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems the only way I can think of for the increased animal-handling skill to be evident so long as it includes the speed/capacity of draft animals as well... yet that seems to infringe on the 'traveler' flag functionality.
Unless 'animal handling' is required of pet classes to train up their animal pets, I suppose.
Hmm. Alternative: Animal Handling might, rather than increase speed, enable the PC to teach his mount/pet combat skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would imagine animal handling should be used the same way it's meant to be used in the game, to rear and train animals. Mounts would be a player provided commodity just the same as weapons and armor and food. Animal handlers would have to breed or capture young animals and raise them to adult hood with handle animal checks to domesticate them. Then they would have to use handle animal to teach them tricks. The higher the skill, the faster and better they can rear and train their mounts to prep them for sale.
This would all apply to pets as well, not just mounts. Besides, any trained pet can be used as a mount if it's strong enough to carry you and at least one size category larger. It could also go more in depth and allow handlers to select feats and stat focuses for the animals so that they can specialize their merchandise.
More intelligent or exotic animals could/would also require higher skill to be able to train or rear at all.
If players can capture people's mounts then it would also be used to calm the animals and get them to allow the new rider.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
Though I don't claim to have played every MMO, I am not aware of a situation where you are provided the ability to improve your mount, let alone improve it through yours or another player's skills. Mounts in most of the MMOs I've played are simply speed buffed money sinks.
As for having to have the same skill the mount does to utilize its skill, I've known plenty of people who have had others train their pets or horses so that they could utilize the pet/horse's skills, but had no idea how to train that skill themselves. For instance, I might have someone train my dog to attack on command, and I can know the attack command to give it, but have no clue how to teach it to do that. Of course, this may vary with the skill being used.
There are several games wherein you can train your "pet" in/for combat. I just meant that training a mount would not be a stretch from that.
What I meant is that the rider should have some "ride" skills to fully utilize his mounts tricks. Not that the end rider should know how to train the mount. Those people you speak of do know more than a complete "first time rider" do they not? :)
I also agree on the issue of the Ride skill. It seems to me that if an individual trained a stellar mount than a novice rider would have trouble utilizing that mount. While I find your analogy with the dog quite humorous it bears a different weight when you are riding that dog. It would just be a balancing act if you will. A mount trainer with high handle animal skill would produce a very unique and skilled mount. And just as if someone had crafted a very powerful sword, if the user is not skilled enough to wield it, then its power is diminished.
From what I know, a well-trained mount is one that can handle even the clumsiest of riders. A mount might be quite powerful and skilled but lack training in handling bad handlers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree you need to know how to ride, and a more skilled rider can get more out of their mount. However, I still believe there are skills the mount can know and the rider can benefit from without having to have the ability to teach that particular skill. Perhaps for some of these mount skills, the end result would be the mount's skill (jumping, combat, etc.) augmented by the player's riding skill (which might also be subdivided for more specialized skills).
Example #1:
A mount trainer teaches the mount to be less skittish in battle by desensitization (e.g. exposing it to battle noises, chaotic movements, the smell of rotting flesh, etc.). Perhaps an encouraging phrase or touch is coupled with the training to bolster the mounts morale, as well as conditioning with a reward after sufficiently standing its ground.
Now the trainer sells the mount to me. Knowing I might ride into combat, I have learned the first tier of "combat riding" from my riding trainer (this is not the same trainer as a mount trainer) who has taught me the encouraging phrase and touch mentioned above. There's a good chance, having received its training, that my sturdy warhorse is going to be less skittish in combat regardless of my encouragement, but coupled with my combat training, my horse feels even more secure in dangerous situations.
Note - my mount's training was separate from my own. I know nothing about how to get a mount to be less skittish in combat, only how to illicit, or in this case, bolster the behavior.
Example #2:
An animal trainer teaches my mount how to better jump obstacles. The training process would likely include cues (perhaps both sounds and tactile - a certain word and squeezing with the knees) given at the proper time. The training would likely begin with obstacles the horse could easily walk over and increase in height, and finish with praise and a treat after a successful jump. Knowing how to do all this - when to up the height, the timing of the cues, the most motivating reward, etc., - would require a good deal of very specialized experience (i.e. having learned the animal training skill).
As in the first example, once the mount is sufficiently trained, the trainer sells this fine jumper to me. I might know only the basics of riding (again, taught by a riding trainer, not a mount trainer), who teaches me the jumping cues (again, this could be included in basic riding or require the subskill "jumping" or "trick riding"). Having been trained to jump, there's a good chance that the horse would jump some obstacles simply because it has been trained to do so and even if I had no skill, cues, etc., but with the required riding knowledge, I am able to I get the horse to jump on command - certainly higher obstacles than the horse would jump if it hadn't been taught how to do so. However, if I have a higher riding skill, now I factor into the final result as well, by being better at encouraging that next jump, by giving the cues at just the right time, and thereby getting more out of my mount.
My end argument is that the mount is receiving different training from the rider, and thereby requires a different trainer to learn its skills - mount trainer (to increase the mount's skills)and riding trainer (to increase the player's riding skills). In this way, training and selling skilled mounts becomes a viable player occupation and valued resource, akin to crafting well made armor or weapons.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Is it possible that the mount would gradually loose skill if ridden by someone with less skill? A level 3 mount and a level 1 rider for example. The level 1 rider can make use of the mount's level 3 skills but does not have the training to maintain the mount's level 3 skills. Over time the mount reverts to the skill level of the rider. This would encourage the character to advance in skill to maintain their investment in the mount.
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Goblin Squad Member
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After our discussion on PFOFan TS last night (plug), I like the following idea:
Make mounts an item, a pet and a companion. Yes, all three! Yes, I know Ryan Dancey had expressed little or no interest in expending server resources to this added character in the game. But......
Having a horse that can have six key words (training); have their own commands ( pet); and can be injured, killed and healed (companion), would create the most in depth mount system than any other MMO has ever seen (at least to my knowledge).
As for the argument that it would be too stressful on the server. Neverwinter Online allows for every character to have a companion and a mount. All I'm suggesting is to allow for those to items to be combined into one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think that makes perfect sense Hobs. It is exactly the point I was trying to get across. "training" an animal, and "training" ride skill, are separate situations.
I also, would not mind seeing mechanics wherein a PC must spend some time with a new pet/mount to get to know each other to even further maximize the PC and pet/mount symbiosis. Many animal trainers put pet/mount and intended owner together for final training.
Quality "time" with your "trained" mount and the PC's "riding skill" lvl, all add to the final sum total.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I know...after my last wall of text, you'd think I'd be finished...
Thinking more about mount and rider skills, I'm wondering how that list of skills might look and which riding skills augment which mount skills. The skills suggested below are of course in addition to a mount's starting stats and abilities (its speed, potential damage, armor, encumbrance, etc. for its species). I would suggest that these skills are one time applications to the mount as an item, in the same fashion that keywords are applied to a weapon or piece of armor. Greater performance could be augmented by the mount's personal stats and the owner's corresponding riding skill.
Mount Skills:
Armor ready - enables a mount to perform its other skills without penalty (or with a reduced penalty) when in barding (armor).
Jumper - enables the mount to jump an obstacle or distance higher/longer than usual.
Climber - enables the mount to be more sheer-footed, thus reducing the speed reduction of scaling slopes (if a penalty exists).
Stalwart - enables the mount a better check against events/spells/affects that would normally spook or cause creatures to be effected by fear.
Agile - enables the mount to maneuver better (wheel about, change course, react to sudden events, etc.), adding to its and its rider's appropriate saves. If mounts have different base maneuvering statistics (an elephant doesn't wheel as fast as a horse), this skill would increase its maneuvering speed.
Swift - enables the mount to run faster. This may only be an incremental increase (not to outdo traveler flags), but enough to escape a monster or mounted opponent on a slightly slower mount.
Strong - enables a mount to carry more and/or with less speed penalty due to encumbrance.
Warrior - enables the mount to attack without penalty while mounted (bite, kick/claw, charge/trample, etc.).
Riding Skills:
Basic Riding - enables a player to ride a mount and receive normal handling and speed control. If you are not trained to ride, I would suspect you could manage to ride but not proficiently (penalties could include lag time for direction change, speed decrease, chance to fall off, etc.). If you've ever watched un untrained rider, everything happens in slow motion, actions and reactions are tentative, etc. This skill allows you regular handling for direction of movement, the mount's max speed, etc.
Combat Riding - Allows the rider to fight from horseback without fear of falling off. This skill also augments the mount skills: stalwart, agile, strong, and warrior. Having a trained combat rider further pushes the mount to more heroic feats such as facing danger, outmaneuver opponents, carrying that extra load, and gaining bonuses to attacks.
Trick Riding: Allows the rider to stay in the saddle when performing dangerous feats that might normally be impossible for an ordinary rider or require a check for being dismounted. This skill also augments the mount skills: jumper, climber, agile, and swift. A trained trick rider has expert timing and knows how to shift his/her weight to better enable their mount to perform dazzling jumps, pick out the narrowest path up a cliff, dart between objects like a barrel racer, and outpace whatever might be hot on your heels.