Just wondering,.. how much competition is there?
A WHOLE LOT of competition Yogi, a WHOLE LOT...
Just wondering,.. how much competition is there?
In previous years, the judges were not willing to answer this question. I suspect it is because they do want to discourage anybody from entering.
Just remember that competition is good for the soul. For those without a soul, competition fills the void left by the soul thereby causing a unusual warm sensation but don't worry that warm fuzzy feeling tends to diminish and eventually disappears with time.
Contributor
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
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This is a bit out of context so it might be irrelevant, but I recall one of the judges saying that he'd rather have 500 good items than 100 good items and 400 poor items. So I imagine we're talking about roughly 500 submissions per year.
RPG Superstar 2013
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Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9
aka Steven T. Helt
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It had been stated there were over 850 submissions year one, more submissions in year two, and I don't recall if year three was estimated relativwe to those figures. However, there's never been an exact number. It does seem like last year someone remarked that there were fewer entries, but better entries overall.
My goal, compete with Spicer's leaves. You're not competing with every item, only with the best 32. You just don't knwo what they are. :}
It does seem like last year someone remarked that there were fewer entries, but better entries overall.
And that's a good thing. I think the auto-reject rules may help promote that trend, fewer entries, but of a higher quality. We want are judges to be well rested.
Actually I am hoping for more entries and of higher quality. I want to make it tough on the judges. Better entries mean better final product and isn't that what we all want, the best!
Actually I am hoping for more entries and of higher quality. I want to make it tough on the judges. Better entries mean better final product and isn't that what we all want, the best!
You hear that Neil? You're a final product.
You're right once again Scipion del Ferro, for Neil is a final product and his edges look all shiny and new. Just be careful handling him for the edges are SHARP!!!
...Just be careful handling him for the edges are SHARP!!!
Oh...you have NO idea. :->
I'm sure that Neil's just happy that nobody picked up on the comment about him being the judge's "final product" :)
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I'd be curious to know roughly what proportion of submissions fall at the first cull -- over the word limit, not in English, not PFRPG, or simply just very obviously staggeringly bad? Where the judges are just spending 3 seconds deciding whether a submissions worth spending 30 seconds reading.
If around 700-1000 submissions are made then the judges can't spend even a minute on each, there needs to be some fairly quick & brutal culling to get the volume down to the level where each judge can spend several minutes considering each potential member of the top 32.
When I've been involved in running creatively-oriented competitions in the past the proportion of instant rejections is depressingly high (a third to a half in some cases); hopefully it's not that bad here.
I'd be curious to know roughly what proportion of submissions fall at the first cull -- over the word limit, not in English, not PFRPG, or simply just very obviously staggeringly bad? Where the judges are just spending 3 seconds deciding whether a submissions worth spending 30 seconds reading.
If around 700-1000 submissions are made then the judges can't spend even a minute on each, there needs to be some fairly quick & brutal culling to get the volume down to the level where each judge can spend several minutes considering each potential member of the top 32.
-snip-
Well, considering that the judges have about 47 days to review the submissions, I don't think it's quite as bad as that. I'm sure each gets a fair bit of consideration (fair as in appropriate, not fair as in "good sized"). It's the multiple passes that kill the judges' time. Suppose there's only 700 entries, and they spend a minute on each initially to determine auto-reject status. That's 700 minutes, or about 15 minutes/day. Not too bad.
But that will only narrow it down to the non-rejects - and that's where the real effort comes in. What we'll never know is how many are not auto-rejected, and how much time is spent on the remaining passes. But if we suppose that one third are auto-rejects (and I am guessing the number gets lower every year), that means there's over 450 items that the judges have to re-read more thoroughly ... so that's another 900+ minutes ... that's just the second pass of many, I'm sure, and we're already over minutes per day, on average. And I'm being very conservative. Most likely, it's double or even triple that for the first two passes.
It's clearly an extensive effort on the part of the judges. I've judged a science fair before, and I tell ya, it's a challenge - and that was only one day and only a couple hundred entries - and I only had to evaluate something like 20% of them. That's why it's so important to have multiple judges.
It's really pretty simple.
The process involves evaluating submissions as soon as they come in (or at least, that's what I'm striving to do), by checking for new ones several times during the day. I quickly go on record as a Keep or Reject and wait for the other judges to do the same. Once enough of us are in agreement, we sort the item into a Keep or Reject pile. We repeat that from now until the submission deadline at the end of the month.
Once we've given everything that initial pass, we'll be going back through the Keep pile and assessing everyone's votes. All the judges have to get on record. And unanimous items quickly move up the list for possible inclusion in the Top 32. After that, if we still don't have enough to make 32 items, we'll look at the remaining slots and consider further discussion or a "golden ticket" method whereby each of us can champion an item we want to elevate despite not having unanimous support for it.
But we'll cross that last bridge when we get there. As the quality of submissions goes up, I suspect we'll find a lot more unanimous items...which means we may have to debate a few a little more extensively than in the past.
Chief Technical Officer
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I'd be curious to know roughly what proportion of submissions fall at the first cull -- over the word limit, not in English, not PFRPG, or simply just very obviously staggeringly bad? Where the judges are just spending 3 seconds deciding whether a submissions worth spending 30 seconds reading.
I haven't read them all, but we've had just a few over the word limit. There have been a couple by people whom we suspect don't use English on a regular basis, but I've seen worse in past years. A few have entirely lacked required information such as aura, price, or construction requirements. (One single item actually hit on all three of those sentences.) And we've had a few that are clearly not Wondrous Items (these almost always turn out to be weapons).
And we've had a few that are clearly not Wondrous Items (these almost always turn out to be weapons).
Vic,
Is anything resembling a weapon automatically out? I was thinking... Maul and Mattock of the Titans were filed as wondrous items. What about weapon-like effects, like last years Gloves of the Deceiver? I am sure there's a line somewhere... when does one cross it?
Thanks.
Is anything resembling a weapon automatically out?....I am sure there's a line somewhere...when does one cross it?
It's usually pretty clear. Like...when it's a sword or a dagger. Or...when it includes Craft Magic Arms and Armor in the requirements, but doesn't even bother with Craft Wondrous Item.
Other times, it's more complex, though. Items that quite clearly have more of a weaponized purpose (i.e., functions as a +1 cold iron longsword) have an uphill battle to convince the judges that it's a wondrous item rather than a weapon. A lot of it depends on whether that's its primary purpose. Or even an item that a PC would choose to wield as his primary weapon because it's far better than anything else he'd likely have in his inventory. To me, that's when we start deciding if it's more weapon than wondrous item. In and of itself, that might not knock you out of consideration. But, if there are other problems with the item, that's certainly not going to help in the assessment when comparing it to other entries.
Just my two cents,
--Neil
... I am sure there's a line somewhere...when does one cross it?...
Just my two cents,
--Neil
The line between Wondrous Item and Magic Weapon is that not clear, in that the two types of items use different creation and pricing rules?
A Rod of Lordly Might for instance is a weapon, but it is first and foremost a rod.
Hypothetically: If it had been a submission for a RPG Superstar contest Round to create a rod, would the RoLM have been rejected on grounds of being a weapon rather than a rod?
Oh I can easily see how this can happen. One reason I didn't submit a certain item is due to the thin line between the two and after the 1st round has ended and the 2nd round has started I will post the item I didn't use so you can see how the line could be crossed or blurred by individuals.
Hypothetically: If it had been a submission for a RPG Superstar contest Round to create a rod, would the RoLM have been rejected on grounds of being a weapon rather than a rod?
Yes, because it's a Rod and not a Wondrous Item. Also it is a prime example of a Swiss Army Knife and Spells in a Can.
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Hypothetically: If it had been a submission for a RPG Superstar contest Round to create a rod, would the RoLM have been rejected on grounds of being a weapon rather than a rod?Yes, because it's a Rod and not a Wondrous Item. Also it is a prime example of a Swiss Army Knife and Spells in a Can.
It's just simpler to not even have that line approached. Don't make an item that could be considered from another category. No weapons, no rods, no staffs, no rings, no head gear, no armor. Although there are some Wondrous Items out there that blur the line, for this competition just don't go near it. It's ok in your our game to create a Helm that's considered a Wondrous Item. Just not in this competition.
I mean, it's very easy to turn your Cloak of Cool Tricks into a Brooch of Cool Tricks. Or your Sword of Dastardly Slaying into a Fork of Dastardly Slaying.
Actually I just noticed he said if the round was about creating a Rod specifically. So it could likely be DQ'd for the SAK and SIC.
Actually I just noticed he said if the round was about creating a Rod specifically. So it could likely be DQ'd for the SAK and SIC.
That's the kind of thing I most appreciate Sean's auto-reject posts for -- because it wouldn't have (previously) been obvious to me that a lot of the traditional/core items wouldn't pass muster for Superstar.
no head gear,
There is a separate magic headgear category..?
It's ok in your our game to create a Helm that's considered a Wondrous Item. Just not in this competition.
I'm fairly certain a weirdass Helm made top 32 in one of the previous years.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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It's just simpler to not even have that line approached. Don't make an item that could be considered from another category. No weapons, no rods, no staffs, no rings, no head gear, no armor. Although there are some Wondrous Items out there that blur the line, for this competition just don't go near it. It's ok in your our game to create a Helm that's considered a Wondrous Item. Just not in this competition.
I mean, it's very easy to turn your Cloak of Cool Tricks into a Brooch of Cool Tricks. Or your Sword of Dastardly Slaying into a Fork of Dastardly Slaying.
While I agree with some of the ideas behind this advice, I still think that if your coolest item is a helm, and it has to be a helm (isn't as cool if you changed it into a sock or rainbow or fuzzy dice or whatever), then just bite the bullet and do it. Even if it has a weapon-like component that is essential and can't be taken away without losing mojo, then take that risk.
Submit your coolest item and win or lose based on that. Don't try so hard to avoid any possible controversial category that you end up with the beige spoon of infinite blandness. And if you don't win, be happy that you lost by sticking to your guns and doing your best work, not by watering it down into something less cool.
Keep in mind this might be horrible advice in many cases.
But I still think that if you have something you love love love and feel passionate about, then maybe that's what you need to submit. Even if it's risky. Even if it violates an auto-reject category or two.
Yes make sure you follow all the rules to the letter, and take Sean's advice very seriously. But if you have to dance close to an auto-reject category to make an awesome item work, then that's a risk that's worth taking. That doesn't mean the judges won't hate it. But I'd rather take a risk and submit a cool item that loses than submit a watered down item that loses. It might be best to come up with an awesome concept that comes nowhere near an auto-reject category, but if that isn't your best concept, then weigh the risks and go with your gut.
That's just my opinion, so feel free to ignore it completely. But I'd rather lose with a really cool item than lose with a kinda cool item.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Star Voter Season 6
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Hypothetically: If it had been a submission for a RPG Superstar contest Round to create a rod, would the RoLM have been rejected on grounds of being a weapon rather than a rod?Yes, because it's a Rod and not a Wondrous Item. Also it is a prime example of a Swiss Army Knife and Spells in a Can.
Last character I had with a RoLM developed the bad habbit of saying 'go go gadget!' when using it.
Likely if you're making it a weapon, you're doing it wrong. Remember the Mattock and the Maul are tools, that can be used as weapons.
To use something from the opposite direction, Hank's bow and Shelia's pole/javalin are both weapons, despite doing non-weapon things. A flailing cloak that attacked on its own would be a wondrous item, even though it has a combat function. If you make a guitar though that key magical property is that it can be used as a +2 thundering shocking burst great club when the dial on it is turned up to 11, that's making a weapon and disguising it as a 'wondrous item'.
Edit: Shelia was supposed to be 14??? Whoa, they drew her a lot older I thought,
Edit II: If they ever did a live action version of the cartoon, here's Diana.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Actually I just noticed he said if the round was about creating a Rod specifically. So it could likely be DQ'd for the SAK and SIC.That's the kind of thing I most appreciate Sean's auto-reject posts for -- because it wouldn't have (previously) been obvious to me that a lot of the traditional/core items wouldn't pass muster for Superstar.
A lot of items which are good for play aren't particularly creative.
I'd go further and suggest that the average published item (WotC or Paizo) would not make it into RPGSS. That doesn't make them bad, it's a tough competition and you need to be a bit more creative to win than doing many of the more traditional items.
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no head gear,There is a separate magic headgear category..?
It's ok in your our game to create a Helm that's considered a Wondrous Item. Just not in this competition.I'm fairly certain a weirdass Helm made top 32 in one of the previous years.
Yep, at least two helms have made the Top 32: the batrachian helm and the helm of the golem master I believe.
And in regards to the discussion about rods and other magic item categories, I think it's important to realize that the auto-reject criteria that have been presented for wondrous items might not be the same if the contest involved other types of items. It's kind of impossible to create a staff that isn't a "spell in a can" and/or a "Swiss army knife." Rods are much the same case, except they are often much weirder because they have weapon properties and strange abilities that must make them tricky to price.
To be clear:
Head Gear is an item slot, not a category in it self.
Actually all headgear items are also Wondrous Items.
No one should be discouraged from submitting head gear items.
Hypothetically: If it had been a submission for a RPG Superstar contest Round to create a rod, would the RoLM have been rejected on grounds of being a weapon rather than a rod?Yes, because it's a Rod and not a Wondrous Item. Also it is a prime example of a Swiss Army Knife and Spells in a Can.Last character I had with a RoLM developed the bad habbit of saying 'go go gadget!' when using it.
Likely if you're making it a weapon, you're doing it wrong. Remember the Mattock and the Maul are tools, that can be used as weapons. ...
I am pretty sure my submission is no where near the grey area between magic weapon and WI.
When I began creating sample wondrous items in preparation for this year's contest, the first one I really liked (and even planned to submit) skirted the weapon/item line. Having read this thread, I'm pretty sure my item did NOT cross that intangible line- it followed the advice of "Likely if you're making it a weapon, you're doing it wrong. Remember the Mattock and the Maul are tools, that can be used as weapons."
But at the time, I rejected that item as a submission because I was afraid it would be auto-rejected. (Plus it referred to some home-campaign material, in a very minor way.)
This was actually for the best, because it forced me to work harder on my other wondrous items, until I was sure the one I did submit was RPGSuperstar quality. (I might be wrong about that, but I feel I'm not. Now it's up to the judges!)
Thanks for all the advice, friends! I feel better about myself every time I read the boards here. Even if I don't make the grade, it wasn't for lack of trying! Best of luck to everyone.
That's the reason they limited us to wondrous items, IMO. All the other categories are pretty limited in what new and inventive stuff can be added to them. Wondrous items, however, are effectively limitless in scope and variety, and thus prove to be a greater testing ground for the creativity that the judges are looking for.
See my new thread.
Clark's new thread