| faustusnotes |
Have you ever been in the midst of a warhammer 2nd edition battle and thought to yourself, "Holy Gods of Chaos but this is taking a long time to get over with"? I think it's a common view that because Warhammer characters are so crap at everything, combat must in essence be deadly. However, I've analysed the probabilities on my blog, comparing survival probabilities with D&D3.5 for first level characters, and found that Warhammer characters in general survive a lot longer than D&D3.5 characters at first level. It takes 17 rounds for a Warhammer fighter-type character to have a 50% chance of dying, while this takes 11 rounds for a D&D3.5 fighter-type.
Also, the length of combats seems to be independent of level - a 4th or 5th level character will have a very similar cumulative probability of death to a first level character.
I'd be interested to see if this matches any readers' experiences of playing warhammer 2nd ed - I've only played twice and both times found this length of combat to be a significant problem.
| faustusnotes |
Thanks for reading it, Zombieneighbours. I excluded the critical chance because it is actually close in probability to the chance of a critical in D&D - a 1 in 10 chance of extra damage after you hit, followed by a critical "check" (an attack roll test), means your total chance of a critical in any round is (original damage chance) [times] 10% * (hit chance)=(original hit chance) [times] 3%, while for D&D it's (5%) [times] (original hit chance). So they roughly come out in the wash, and I excluded them from the calculations for both systems for simplicity.
I plan another post on the "aim" and "feint" actions because I think they barely increase the overall hit chance but at the cost of an action. I think it's possible to show, for example, that there is no possible level of attack skill (between 0 and 100) at which it is better to sacrifice a defense action for a feint.
Stefan Hill
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I'd be interested to see if this matches any readers' experiences of playing warhammer 2nd ed - I've only played twice and both times found this length of combat to be a significant problem.
As my longest living 2nd ed. WH character was a surgeon I never really bothered to much with combat. I was usually hiding. I think you are right that the length of a combat may be similar (longer?) but the outcomes are usually more interesting from a role-playing point of view in WH. The critical tables, assuming you don't go toes up, make a character dynamic in funny ways. Our 2H weapon warrior lost a hand in one combat and also went insane (same encounter, don't ask). So he stuck a puppet to his hand and it "guided him" from that encounter forth. D&D = unco. or dead no middle ground and no downside, other than death, for biting off more than you can chew. I think you risk more to your character in WH by engaging in combat. However, losing a hand or leg isn't very heroic - D&D shines at heroic, WH shines at grime (er...).
S.
| faustusnotes |
Balfic-graa, I aim mostly to do simulations pitting basic characters against each other - there's so many choices in any rpg that you can't simulate them all. Hopefully when I develop a simulation it will include the option to, for example, pit a fighter-type against a surgeon, which is interesting from the point of view of comparing different systems' ability to mash non-combatants but isn't actually going to produce unexpected results.
Stefan Hill, I certainly like the criticals but it's the fact of their taking so long to get there that is is the problem. An average of 17 rounds and 25 die rolls to get a one-on-one battle out of the way is just not very interesting for most people - you could drop this to 6 rounds, for example, using my "control" system, and keep the criticals.
I've got another post on my blog now about the way that warhammer encourages non-combatant games, and the up- and downsides of this. I played in Japanese and the Japanese version encourages the same kind of cautious, find-a-way-around-it approach of western gamers, which makes me think that the system has a universal dampening effect on high adventure. To me, this is more a minus than a plus; but it's a design intention, so it's a good thing that it comes out this way even when played in very different languages and cultures. The system has strong effects.
| Lorm Dragonheart |
I think you are forgetting that an average beginning character has a 31 in S, T and WS. that would mean almost a 1/3 chance of hitting. Average damage would be 1d10 + 3 = 8. Average T + armour would be a 5. Overall damage would be a 3. The character would be able to take about 4 hits before worrying about crits which would = about 12 rounds not 17.
| faustusnotes |
Lorm, although the average character has a 31 in WS (I have given them 35), the chance of doing damage is not 1/3 - it's actually 15% due to the interaction of parry and damage reduction. I have given the character armour of 1, which with your average damage calculations means overall damage would be 4.5 (toughness is 3). This means 3 hits before death. Note that 4 hits before death extends the survival time, rather than reducing it.
Zombieneighbours, I gave the Warhammer character armour of 1 (I failed to specify this in the example, sorry), i.e. leather. The D&D character has chain, as does the C&C character - so their survival is lower even though they have heavier armour.
Today I'm investigating the feint move, which has revealed further details about the system that are quite painful. I'll comment here when I get the post up (it's fiddly).
| faustusnotes |
I've now put up an even more hideously long-winded post about the warhammer feint ability which shows that:
a) The Feint always reduces your effectiveness relative to not using it, no matter what the situation
b) attack success for evenly-matched antagonists with very high or very low WS is appallingly low, and fights in these situations will almost certainly drag out forever.
For example, a character with a WS of 90 will reduce their effectiveness in combat against any opponent by about 90% using feint; and two antagonists both with WS of 90 will find they have just a 6% chance of actually doing damage, so the fight between them will last a very long time - my guess is 30 rounds in 50% of cases - and if they have increased toughness and wounds even longer. It's literally possible for a duel between two people with WS 90 and toughness 60 to go on forever.
| PsychoticWarrior |
This is why I play v1 of WFRP with only a smattering of v2 rules thrown in (the magic system and some combat options). The low bonuses (+5% instead of 10%) to the WS & BS scores set off warning bells for me - with stuff like parry & dodge making it harder to hit already low WS & BS were not a desirable thing.
Stefan Hill
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For example, a character with a WS of 90 will reduce their effectiveness in combat against any opponent by about 90% using feint; and two antagonists both with WS of 90 will find they have just a 6% chance of actually doing damage, so the fight between them will last a very long time - my guess is 30 rounds in 50% of cases - and if they have increased toughness and wounds even longer. It's literally possible for a duel between two people with WS 90 and toughness 60 to go on forever.
Not sure I take issue with this. You present two characters who are arguably at the top of their game when it comes to combat (90 WS!!!). My Surgeon even at his height would last only a few rounds against someone like this (if he's lucky). Thus my surgeon would seek to spike their drinks and then when they are sleeping soundly cut their throats - trying feinting that. The example you give is like diamond scratching diamond - same thing is seen in games like Stormbringer. My point being in most (all?) RPG's you can construct situations where combats are either no-win or go on forever seemingly. T
This isn't a shot at either D&D or WH - but if your thinking of a combat heavy game then D&D is a no brainer choice, if your going to make combat something that happens only when players can't resolve the problem another way, then WH strikes me as the better system.
| faustusnotes |
Stefan, I agree it's not necessarily unrealistic, but in pure game mechanical terms it's tedious as hell - spending 30 or 40 rounds rolling multiple dice to take out a single person means that if a player ever gets sucked into combat it's going to be really boring.
However, having said that, I prefer a combat system in which very skilled characters are deadly and a fight between them is brutal, fast and over very quickly. This is also something that doesn't happen with D&D - my probability analysis uses 1st level characters and every additional level increases the time they take to die by quite a lot. This comparison was originally sparked by two very long battles in a row, one in pathfinder and one in warhammer.
The main issue with this for me is that it makes combat really boring and the difference between a relatively tough character and a relatively untough character is very small - a few percentage points on a 100 sided die. This means that fights take a long time and the ultimate winner is going to be the person who manages to roll a few percentage points lower (or get a crit), not the person who uses their special abilities creatively (there aren't that many) or even the better fighter (in many cases).
The upshot is that combat in warhammer is best avoided because it's boring, not because it's dangerous.
Stefan Hill
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The upshot is that combat in warhammer is best avoided because it's boring, not because it's dangerous.
Perhaps you have had a little bad luck on the exact combats. It depends a lot on if you line up 1 on 1 and go at it = dull, agreed. The situation can dramatically (no pun intended) change the outcome of a battle - environment, superior numbers etc. I can only speak from personal experience - but I got dropped by a single arrow shot from an elf (slight diplomacy break down). If we examine extremes like WS 20 vs WS90 or WS 20 vs WS 20 or WS 90 vs WS 90. In case the first case we have a superior combatant taking apart a muppet = short fight, and the second two muppet flailing around at each other = long fight, and the last your diamond vs diamond match up = long fight. We found that as soon as you can get 1 or 2 extra people involved then the poor surrounded target gets dealt too quite quickly - or surrenders.
If you find the combats are taking too long, perhaps take a closer look at the adventure (if from Black Ind. then no excuse... but we did play them all and didn't run into combat-fatigue - mind you I let the people with swords fight...), and if a DM written adventure perhaps the match-up's can be changed to provide the players more fun?
D&D and/or WH may just not suit your style of role-playing? As luck would have it their are plenty more fish in the sea, as they say.
| faustusnotes |
Stefan, it's not so much that WH isn't for me - I really like the world, and I am a fan of deadly systems too. It's more that the combination of incompetent characters and poorly-designed system, with lots of dice rolls, means that combat just isn't fun, nor is it particularly deadly, and this lets down the gritty realism of the piece. If it were the case that the incompetent characters could die easily even when fighting someone just like themselves, it would be a dark low-fantasy world (killed by a camp-follower is surely the definition of a dark low-fantasy world). But spending 20 or 30 rounds, rolling 3 times a round, to kill a basic mercenary, doesn't seem an essential element of dark low fantasy. Even the WS20 vs. WS90 case won't escape this - the WS90 character still only has a 50% chance of damaging their opponent, which is pretty poor when you think of the difference between their levels. In my previous post I estimated that such a fight would take 7 rounds to resolve on at least 50% of occasions, when it should be over in 3 at the most (hitting every round).
Ordinary street-fights with knives are over much faster than this. If two untrained muppets in suburban england can do each other in in a few seconds, surely their equivalents (say, a rat-catcher and a camp follower) in WH's dark Europe should be able to do the same, rather than spending 20 rounds desperately trying to hit each other?
| Zombieneighbours |
Faustusnotes,
You have fallen into a very large conceptual trap. Your looking at elements of the system in isolation, both from each other and from the setting.
Your evidence that a lot of blows can be traded without death is accurate*, but because your looking only at two fighters going at each other with swords you miss the wider picture. Firstly magical healing is practically a non-factor in the warhammer world, and the game is built with the core assumption that in combat healing will not occure.
A first level party of wizard, fighter, cleric and rogue in Pathfinder have a considerable amount of healing which a first 'level' WFRP party does not have. Once channeling has been used up, along with any remaining cure lights, combat could have been extended by a considerable length beyond that which a warhammer fight can run too
Warhammer could, very easily be made more realistic, and the system is not especially realistic. Double to hit chances, remove parry and dodge options, have ulrics fury funtion on 9/10, would speed things up and make it much more like the north london knifeing. But you'd have a situation where characters died in every combat, and the game would be all but unplayable.
Instead, we have a situation where characters can survive, can fight two or three fights in a row, without death, but the combat still feels dangerous, where preventing yourself being hit matters.
Even at the 6000 exp mark, when you might reasonably be in full plate, a group of seven or so beggars with rusty knives can kill you in one turn, and do so with relative ease. Ask your self this, how many level 1 commoners with daggers would it take to take down a level twenty fighter in full plate and tooled out with full treasure for that level.
*that said i think your handling armour wrong, in that the vast majority of starting warriors have only a point on the arms and the body, but not the head or legs.
| faustusnotes |
Zombieneighbours, it's definitely a conceptual trap, deliberately of my own making - I'm assessing an element of the system, specifically investigating the reasons why a fight takes so long, not looking at the whole adventure. Play style is too variable and complicated a thing to simulate, after all, but it's from these combat mechanisms that play style is built. After all, if D&D combat weren't deadly at first level clerics wouldn't be in demand, and a decision not to use a cleric is also a playing style decision (albeit one not usually available to WH players).
My guess is that most people who GM and play WH do it on the assumption that the world is a grim, dark, deadly place, so they stay near towns at low level, the GM designs very small non-dungeon adventures, etc. (I have played WH twice and both adventures were political/social, not at all combat focussed). I think it is very interesting that the combat system in essence doesn't support these fears, and it's a complement to the world-building efforts of GW that their players and GMs operate on the assumption of a dark, deadly fantasy world that doesn't actually obtain in the most basic, fundamental unit of conflict in the world.
Incidentally, the armour I wore (leather) had 1 ap on every body part. I am assuming that for this simulation. And your 7 commoners would have at most a 7% chance of doing damage against the fighter (assuming they have 30% weapon skill and he can't parry any of them), which, given full plate armour, suggests he would take a very long time to die indeed. I don't think their rusty knives would be sufficient for the task you set them.
| faustusnotes |
I now have a report up on my blog of the Warhammer session I played in Japanese two weeks ago, for those who're interested...