Alsa there will be no song here.
If half-orcs were to have one I would hazzard a guess that it would be this
I will preface this by saying it is perhaps to late or at the moment early for me to be writting anything especially when it comes to something I am passionate about.
Couple that with my in ability to articulate myself with text it makes for a poor combination.
Now to the heart of the matter.
+2 to One [u]Ability Score[/u]: Half-orc characters get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice at creation
to represent their varied nature.
This is my gripe about this.
Half-elves are varied they live in caught between two different races with clashing ideals one being long lived the other doomed to fade away.
The Half-orc on the other hand.
Both races are short lived.
And he is not caught in a clash, no, he is torn between races that want nothing more than to see the other burnt to the ground and use there lands to further there own cause.
This gives the half-orc two choices be with the humans or with the orcs.
There is no give or take.
To be with the humans is to be looked upon as an ugly misfit whom will never be any of the qualities that humans want themselves to be known for.
They repesent the more base nature of a human and it revolts them.
Hired sword or bandit those are his choices in life.
To the orc there everything an orc can't be in both the good and the bad, they will never carry the strong bloodline that a chief wants but they have intelligence that he desires.
The choices there are tool or punching bag.
I would say that there pervious stats are a much better repsentation of half orc.
But everything else I believe captures the half orc to a T.
But I think the reason that I wanted to say something is because people don't know the half orc.
He is the outcast among outcasts.
Also he is not the cool outcast among out casts like wolverine.
He is fundamentally damaged.
And this makes them more driven then any puny half elf could be.
Take for example these two great half orc charater from the popculture of japan.
Narito from Narito and Guts from Berserk
I know some of you may go those are not half orcs but I urge you to read or watch the series that they are in.
They are both the juxtapose to one another in that they are the same that people see great potential with them but there reactions to it.
Narito is driven by his difference and hates the monster inside of him but sometimes has to call upon his darker side to get him threw.
Narito responds with passion.
Guts on the other hand is the otherside of how they turn out.
He is has this darker side and wears it but to him he sees it alround people have darker sides but they just don't wear them like he does.
Currupt politicians to cheating house wife.
Guts responds with apathy.
Call it a sterotypical view if you must but I don't think it is.
For the half orc unlike all of the other races there is little room to breath.
He must always walk with the air of distrust.
He is always forced to choose, with us or against us that is the choice for the orc.
Yet this is what I think can be compelling about the half orc.
He is aloud his pride and it maybe twisted beyond of any standard that we know.
He may kill those that he shares blood with but will not war against them.
He can disrust elves and others tell him thats his orc blood but he knows better being of two races of short life he knows of toil and struggle.
The elf is of long life and can not, will not understand us the short lived, no matter how in touch with nature they are unnatural.
His wisdom is granted not by his blood but by his way of life.
He is forced into postions where no ammont of weighing your options will help you.
It's your gut that pulls you through.
And with that my gut is telling me it's getting a bit long in the tooth.
Thanks for having a read.
If your thinking of playing a half orc or you haven't done it before I highly recommend it for the cathartic value alone.
Have a good one.
I feel for you.
But you have to understand things from the point of Jason.
I am guessing here, but I think he saw what I did too.
+2 Strength, +2 Wisdom, -2 Int was TOO good. It was overly focused on making melee classes race.
Also Jason also probably kept in mind the balancing system of WotC with DnD, where +2 str and dex cost -4 to mental stats. So what he did was gave everyone +2 to a mental stat, and balanced their +2 to a physical stat with a -2 to a physical stat; if they didn't just get a +2 to only one stat of choice. This brought to him a problem with the half orc because no one would ever put up with the half orc getting a -2 to a physical stat. So he was caught in his system to give them what the half elf and human got.
So I purpose to you this.
As constantly striving to be acknowledged in an orc world, and being physically inferior, but mentally superior he learns the ins and outs of the tribe/culture he is in of the orc world. He learns everyone's mental/emotional weakness or even physical ones though contacts to keep himself ahead, and most importantly the pecking order and proper social responses to the superiors and how to manipulate the situations.
In the human world a half orc commonly finds the same situations as to hierarchy and social points to keep his lack of learning from getting in the way, but mostly taking advantage from his physical superiority, to lean to his intimidating ability.
With this concept I would suggest that we break ties with traditions and with the new Pathfinder game grant the following.
+2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Cha
This way you would be getting a mental stat bonus to the weakest stat for a melee class to balance out the lack of no minus to a physical stat.
My suggestion:
+2 Str, +2 Con
-2 penalty choice between int and cha
+2 Str, -2 Int OR Cha (Player choice), +2 any score but strength.
The races description as big and strong makes little sense if they aren't any stronger than the other races on average.
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I let my players have a choice between the "type" of halforc they wanted to be. If they choose the +2 to any 1 stat version that is in the Core book, they look mostly human with only a few half-orc indicators, grew up in human society, and therefore are less shunned by the other races. If they take the old stats, +2 str, +2 wis, -2 to int they look mostly like an orc, with perhaps facial hair or some other mild indicator of human blood, and they grew up either in the wild or in orc society. Most Shoanti and dwarves hate them on sight, and the rest of the races aren't very friendly or cooperative with them. We roleplay a lot so while they get the benefit of the old stats, it comes at a social cost, which can be especially expensive in towns and cities.
+2 Str, -2 Int OR Cha (Player choice), +2 any score but strength.
The races description as big and strong makes little sense if they aren't any stronger than the other races on average.
I have two suggestions for half-orcs:
1- +2 to any physical attribute. (Str, Dex or Con) to represent their varied nature but similar background.
2- +2 to Str, -2 to Int and +2 to an attribute of their choice that is not Str again. This put up a varied background without giving up the orc blood.
Wait, are you designing half-orcs there or Katanas?
Might get some opposition for this but I would go with:
+2 STR, +2 WIS, -2 INT, -2 CHA
Yeah, you end up -2 behind but you don't take a hit on any of the physical stats. It might not have the same symmetry but has slightly better game balance.
I don't like the +2 to any ability as well but I've decided to play a half-orc Ranger anyway. I had built a whole storyline around this character based on the beta version and when I was finally able to introduce him to the campaign, the changes came out. Oh well. This character was built for role-playing anyways so it was only a minor hiccup.
To Sir Hexen Ineptus
First off that is one cool as funk name.
However I can not agree with you on your idea of having orcs with plus two to charisma.
Wile I can see people desiring the half orc because of what comes from having an exceptional body.
Not the bluk and mass of an orc but still quite muscled the lean panther like conan type.
However beyond being a bit of eye candy I can't see them being charismatic.
It's fundamental to them.
Ever see the episode of nip/tuck where they give cosmetic surgery to the female gorilla, she ends up being ripped apart by the male which was brought in because he sensed her damage without seeing it.
Like the gorilla people can sense the hurt in the half-orc, it's like many things where even if we don't want to think about it, it is the for front of our mind that thing that makes the person we just met different.
Were animals and we will never except them.
This would count doubly so for orcs who are far more primal than humans.
As for the other thing.
I know why it was done.
But balance is so hard to achive and sometimes in giving balance it just makes people weigh the scales more.
I would not be unhappy with orcs being a highly melee focused race.
To Draco Bahamut
Plus two to any physical would be very interesting and would feel more repesentive of them.
The second choice I very much like for flavour.
That sour orc-y goodness, yum.
But I can see why they went away from having two physical stat bonuses
imagine the legion of half-orc fighter and barbarins at pathfinder society.
Your right that would be fantastic.
Completely unbalanced but fantastic.
To Trance-Zg
A man unto my own heart.
Balance can be four letter word! I want flavour damn it.
To Peter Stewart
That sounds much more interesting and balanced but due to the mutable nature of that I would say that is why they stayed away from something like that.
Plus imagine the rap they would get for that people had there arms up about rules for stairs people would explode into a fuming lot of rants had they done that.
But I like it :D
To stardust
Glad that your having fun.
Stength 20 is always fun.
To redcelt32
An interesting way of going about things you want bonus you get the stick, THE FLAVOUR STICK!
Having people decide how orcish they want to be that also helps drive the game people can decide if they want to be a HALF orc or a half ORC.
This I can see also help drive your story.
Sounds good.
To Frogboy
You really do want to removed the idea of half orcs as casters don't you.
I am not sure about that balance.
To Roagh
I think it was because people went to the half like this, "OK, I am a cleric or a melee class" "What about-" "Melee or cleric" "But there-" "MELEE or CLERIC"
Which is what I imagine Jason's goal was to avoid.
And i am fairly sure the minus two to intelligence goes beyond "Me half-orc stupid", it repesents there lack of ability to be given learning.
They are focused on survival to them it doesn't matter why it work but how.
People would say to them "Ok so you X, Y and Z and then you get this"
"Ok" "Don't you want to know why it works" "No just that it works"
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Caladors & Trance-Zg,
I agree with what the others said about balance issues with the half-orc's stats in Beta; getting +2 to Str and Wis made them the optimal choice for melee-type clerics. Likewise, giving a race a bonus to *two* physical stats (i.e. Str and Con) would make them the optimal overall melee character (fighter and barbarian, namely). Not everyone optimizes, but if there are clearly superior races (especially as there are no official racial feats or alternate class features in the game) for certain classes there's usually at least one guy in the group who always exploits them ("Meet mr. Half-Orc Barbarian number 5!").
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Caladors & Trance-Zg,
I agree with what the others said about balance issues with the half-orc's stats in Beta; getting +2 to Str and Wis made them the optimal choice for melee-type clerics. Likewise, giving a race a bonus to *two* physical stats (i.e. Str and Con) would make them the optimal overall melee character (fighter and barbarian, namely). Not everyone optimizes, but if there are clearly superior races (especially as there are no official racial feats or alternate class features in the game) for certain classes there's usually at least one guy in the group who always exploits them ("Meet mr. Half-Orc Barbarian number 5!").
Ah, but they also made great Druids and Fighters or Barbarians with a slight bump to Will saves. I mean Elves currently are the best Wizards. Period. +2 Int, +2 Dex for those ranged touch spells. Bonus to overcome SR. And there's nothing wrong with that, is there? If not, why was the Half-orc issue such big deal?
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Alright, balance aside, here's why I like the change:
It makes a lot of sense to me that, in a world without the history of humans and orcs, Half-Orcs would be equally strong, smart, wise, etc. However, the savagery of their orc parents leaves them with a large social burden--expect a half-orc to be brutish, and that's what he'll be. They probably aren't immediately welcome at most wizard and bard academies, so we find that most half-orcs who take up a life of adventuring gravitate toward the martial classes (note that half-elves, who have the same +2 to anything, aren't often fighters or barbarians--they might be said to be a product of the opposite expectations in human societies.)
Essentially, step back from looking at these ability score adjustments as 'averages', and look at them as 'potentials'--dwarves, because of their species and their culture, have a lower potential for a high charisma than humans, but half-orcs, who have that wonderfully adaptable human half and no central culture of their own, have the same potential for charisma/intelligence/wisdom as humans, but more rarely fully realize that potential, classically concentrating on physical stats instead.
Makes a lot of sense to me--curious to see what others think.
To SkullBeard
Sorry I didn't reply in the post above but I had to leave quickly.
Role playing I think should be what drives any game.
I encourage my players to optimize merely because that will keep everyone on an equal playing field.
One player helps the other because he wants a better team mate and then tries to improve his own.
However I have no pun puns.
I believe you can still get a simliar result using points buy to give minus two anyway.
My gripe as I hope I got it across is flavour.
To Asgetrion
I do believe I said as much about the balance already but there is alot of others here and they don't all share your opinion could you please indicate whom you are agreeing with?
To Roagh
I play a game called magic the gathering and there is a term that has been coined in that game.
Net decking.
Where one takes a deck developed by someone else and uses that but they only use decks develped by other people.
I am not bad at the game but I said to my friend once "I don't want to be lame and just netdeck all the time, I would like to win as well though" he replied (his somewhat better than me top GPs and the like)
"Do you think you are the best deck maker in the world?"
Elves are the best wizards, I am not going to argue this.
However I believe that Jason has done a bit of testing and he discovered that the Half-orc race was warping the game.
Half-orcs became the best paladins they became the best fighters,barbarians, rangers, monks, clerics and druids.
I think here was the problem.
Just as I answered my friend to that question I think I would respond the same to this.
"Do you think your the best game designer in the world?"
"No I don't but I think the stuff I make is decent"
To judasburrito
What is average?
With the old stats make everything ten add the stat bonus.
According to that in 3.5 the half orc is as strong as a dog or a pony, as stupid as a gnoll and as wise as a hyena.
On the top of what they can reach assuming 18 instead.
They can be as strong as an ape, as smart as a succubus and as wise as Unicorn.
As you can see all of these examples are useless.
So what I do is I go off what I know.
Ever done the smell test?
BBC Doco I watched, we can tell the compared how close or how far there immune system is to our own. (the further away the more desirable)
Why do I think this has any relevance because it shows we are still animals when it comes down to it.
And we sense innately that this person is not one of our own regardless how much they try to fit in.
So I think that perhaps even a minus to charisma over intellgence but I can never see them reaching the pinnacle of charisma.
To everyone else.
I am sure it may seem confusing when I say yes I can see that there are balance issues ecta.
But I would like it back the old way.
What I would like to know is why.
Wile the half-orc would only like to know how it works I am a little more interested.
I would like to know what tipped them over to changing it to the way it is now.
Were there more pressing issues at hand ecta ecta.
Regardless of how it answered I will still miss my dark brooding half orc not full able to articulate his objections.
Still able to get across the emotional reaction still.
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You can still have your dark, brooding, low-INT, emo half-orc. Just build him that way. The only difference is, with a low-range INT of 7 instead of 5, he can speak properly (whether or not you choose to make him is up to you) and I can build my half-orc wizard who overcame the societal hurdles placed in front of him without it being an eternally stats-challenged character. Leave the "Ugh. My name Thog." characters to the full orcs, ogres, and other monsters, and let's celebrate a new era of versatility and deeper characterization for this oft-maligned race.
Some suggestions i had for half orcs back in 3.5
Empty headed: Half orcs have a +2 bonus against mind affecting spells and effects.
Abused: Can Take Die Hard feat without meeting prerequisite.
Kinslayer: +1 to hit orcs in melee
-These are human raised traits-
Labourer +50% carring capacity
Thrown down the well and came right back: +2 to swim and climb checks.
-These are orc raised traits-
Orcish leader: +2 to Leadership score if cohort and at least 50% of followers have orc blood.
Beast rider +2 to ride checks and handle animal on dire wolves [or other campaign specific orcish mount].
Nobody's b*~**: +4 to on checks to escape grapple and break pins.
The pretty face: +3 on diplomacy checks with orcs, gnolls, gobliniods, minotaurs and non-good giants.
Those are great! LOL
To judasburrito.
Dark and brooding is not emo.
There to hard core to be emo.
God hate emos.
I didn't say morons ethier.
being at 8 means your just below average.
but also being at twelve wisdom means you know that.
So you have people unable to full commincate what they trying to get across so often they choose silence as it seems to be the better option.
To Frankthedm
I am not sure what to say.
Cool and funny.
Seems more satirical than anything else.
but I just liked the titles more than anything else.
ok my half-orc MAGE! is alotta fun. I started out with 18 Str,9 Dex, 18 Con, 16 Int, 9 Wis and 11 Cha. All after racial adjustments. We were allowed to take the Forgotten Realms feat Spellcasting prodigy and I took colliegiate wizard and Least Dragon Mark (house Thorashk of course) my DM allowed Unearthed Arcanna flaws to allow for the extra 1st level feats.
So far the int hit hasnt been that bad, granted its not something I like and I wish I had found the race of Shakrum(Not sure of the spelling) out of races of destiny first They get a +2 str and +2 to int with only a minus -2 cha and -2 dex. Thats more what I think the half orc shoud be like. We got rid of the extra stuff except for the darkvision and orc blood so they wouldnt be a +1 ecl anymore.
What my DM might also allow is for the player to chose which stat he takes after from his orc heritage, for example Orcs get +4str and minus -2 on all int,wis,&cha stats so a half orc should be able to chose +2 for str and either -2 int &cha or -2 wis and cha.
Thats the varients we are working on. Mind you all of this is straight 3.5 not pathfinder.
I like this forum and hope to see what others have done with the half orcs.
I'd take +2 str, -2 Dex, +2 Wis.
Half-Orcs is first ed had no modifier for dex, but they had a stat max of something like 14. And you could still be a solid rogue, just more focused on str for damage. Your dark vision and 30 move makes you one of the best scouts already.
Well, thanks for the thread. I've been wondering how to solve this myself, because I agree that the flat +2 just isn't right. The ideas proposed here have given me my solution, though it's not precisely any of the above. :)
Half orcs in my campaign will have +2 to one physical stat, +2 to one mental stat, and -2 to one mental stat, all of the player's choice. They may pick the same mental stat for both the bonus and the penalty.
Hmm... actually, thinking about it some more maybe letting them choose the physical bonus is too versatile. That should be Strength, period.
So then I wonder if the mental penalty should be always Charisma, and you can just choose to negate it with the bonus? Feh. It's all for flavor anyway; perhaps more extensive play with RAW is in order.
(How long has there been a timeout on when you could edit a post, anyway?)
Well, thanks for the thread. I've been wondering how to solve this myself, because I agree that the flat +2 just isn't right. The ideas proposed here have given me my solution, though it's not precisely any of the above. :)
Half orcs in my campaign will have +2 to one physical stat, +2 to one mental stat, and -2 to one mental stat, all of the player's choice. They may pick the same mental stat for both the bonus and the penalty.
Actually races tend to have +2 to physical stat, +2 mental stat, -2 physical stat, unless their +2 physical stat is con. Giving a -2 IMHO would be too powerful compared to other races.
Actually races tend to have +2 to physical stat, +2 mental stat, -2 physical stat, unless their +2 physical stat is con. Giving a -2 IMHO would be too powerful compared to other races.
Well, according to that scheme the RAW half-orc is overpowered. Ditto half elf and human. All three get +2 to a physical stat with no downside, if they want it. To compensate, their racial abilities are less spectacular.
Anyway, I've settled on +2 Str, -2 Cha, +2 to one mental stat (can be used to cancel Cha penalty) as what I'll do if it feels like something actually needs to be done.
Actually races tend to have +2 to physical stat, +2 mental stat, -2 physical stat, unless their +2 physical stat is con. Giving a -2 IMHO would be too powerful compared to other races.Well, according to that scheme the RAW half-orc is overpowered. Ditto half elf and human. All three get +2 to a physical stat with no downside, if they want it. To compensate, their racial abilities are less spectacular.
Anyway, I've settled on +2 Str, -2 Cha, +2 to one mental stat (can be used to cancel Cha penalty) as what I'll do if it feels like something actually needs to be done.
I like that ideal.
But +2 to any stat is in it's own case has its ups and downs, as you can get +2 to one stat, instead of +2 to two not of choice.
So if you need two 18s or even 16s this makes it a lot more possible with other races.
I just like the old stats because they made an AMAZING DRUID!!!!!
personally, I didnt like the + 2 wis it got in beta, a full-blood orc had / has as far as I know - 2 wis so it didnt make much sense to me.
I think they at least on average should be stronger than humans, since orcs got + 4 on str. + 4 is too huge of a bonus to equalize.
I'd suggest give an half-orc a steady + 2 on str and no other bonus or penalty for other stats, a minor secondary benfit to compensate would be fair. I suggest to give an half-orc access to two favored classes
(like humans and half-elfs).
I'd really not like to see an half-orc starting with int, wis or cha 20.. it doesnt seem to me half-orcs have to be stupid, oblivious or shallow, but unlikely to be super-intellectual or wise