Can we please get feat retraining rules built into the core system?
New players make horrible choices for feats. Also some feats are good at lower levels but become nearly worthless at higher levers (Cleave, Arcane Strike, Dodge to some extent, etc). The player should have the option to occasionally rework parts of his character.
My thought was to allow the player to change out one feat at 7th level and one every 4 levels after that. Feats could not be retrained if they are required as prerequisites for other feats the player still has. This would give the player the chance to redo one feat at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels. So not a huge change but enough so players don't wind up dragging along a feat he doesn't use for the rest of the characters life.
I agree with your opinion. A technique for allowing a PC to retrain a feat that no longer has any viability is a good idea. WotC had a similar idea in the DMG II. I don't have my copy at present as it was loaned out but that is my memory of where it was.
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I'm undecided on this. I recall a game in which retraining was done freely, with us coming to the table with a different set of feats every game. It definately rubbed against my sense of character permanance. But I agree that some retraining should be allowed. How much, I can't say. Maybe earlier than you suggest, 4th level?
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Can we please get feat retraining rules built into the core system?
New players make horrible choices for feats. Also some feats are good at lower levels but become nearly worthless at higher levers (Cleave, Arcane Strike, Dodge to some extent, etc). The player should have the option to occasionally rework parts of his character.
My thought was to allow the player to change out one feat at 7th level and one every 4 levels after that. Feats could not be retrained if they are required as prerequisites for other feats the player still has. This would give the player the chance to redo one feat at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels. So not a huge change but enough so players don't wind up dragging along a feat he doesn't use for the rest of the characters life.
Personally I would rather see this in a supplement rather than the core. That I can decide if I want retraining in my game without it being forced upon me. I'd rather make a houserule to add optional items then having to make a houserule to eliminate it.
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I'm undecided on this. I recall a game in which retraining was done freely, with us coming to the table with a different set of feats every game. It definately rubbed against my sense of character permanance. But I agree that some retraining should be allowed. How much, I can't say. Maybe earlier than you suggest, 4th level?
4E does it well limiting your retrain to one thing per level. Every time you level you can change one skill/feat/power (power not applicable except for barbarians I suppose)
You can't break a prereq, like remove weapon focus in Longsword if you already have weapon spec in longsword. (now over two levels you could get rid of first spec, and then focus.) You also can't break feat/skill reqs for your class/prestige class. (paragon path...)
Part of what is nice about the retaining option is that you can pick up stuff from newer material and slowly change over time your character as she may naturally grow.
Clearly you shouldn't be allowed to spec into a feat that must be selected at first level, and really you shouldn't be able to spec out of it either. It could get complicated, but feats could be marked as retrainable or not. Also skill retraining could be limited to the number of skill points you got at that level. IE if you get 3 skill points, you could remove 3 skill points from other skills for retraining.
My thought was to allow the player to change out one feat at 7th level and one every 4 levels after that.If we're adding something to character advancement, it should be on 2nd level and every 4 levels thereafter (the dead levels where you get neither a new feat nor an ability score increase).
I really don't think it should be that early or frequent but.. that would bother me a lot less than the current state of no retraining at all.
I'm not keen on retraining at every level, for that matter even every other level. Players should be fairly static and change gradually over time.
I'm not keen on retraining at every level, for that matter even every other level. Players should be fairly static and change gradually over time.
PFRPG is a level based system. (edit: snipping strawman argument that did not in any way actually reflect Dennis da Ogre's actual opinion on the subject) I personally find that allowing unused abilities to atrophy and go away, and pick up new abilities, is part of the normal incremental growth described by a level based system, and I am therefore strongly in favor of at least feat retraining.
I'm not keen on retraining at every level, for that matter even every other level. Players should be fairly static and change gradually over time.PFRPG is a level based system. It is not point based, and you do not get to spend down your experience points to open up new abilities every time you can afford them, at least, not anymore, now that xp costs are gone. Therefore, there is nothing mechanically gradual about the existing level based system.
If you want characters to be static, and change over time, then you will need to handwave an awful lot of the system's incremental improvement which occurs in a level-based system. All the sudden, the wizard just wrote 2 new spells into their spellbooks, and the cleric's old healing magics are fractionally less powerful than they were before, whenever a level up is allowed to occur, and there are no fixed guidelines for when that happens. I personally find that allowing unused abilities to atrophy and go away, and pick up new abilities, is part of the normal incremental growth described by a level based system, and I am therefore strongly in favor of at least feat retraining.
You are reading more into my comment than I wrote and replying to things I didn't say. You are certainly reading what I wrote completely different than I do.
You are reading more into my comment than I wrote and replying to things I didn't say. You are certainly reading what I wrote completely different than I do.
Wow...sorry, I did not intend to mistake you for that strawman over there...
Nice strawman, happy strawman. Die evil strawman, die!
Again, apologies.
With that said, I do think every other level might be a bit too frequent. Maybe 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20?
You are reading more into my comment than I wrote and replying to things I didn't say. You are certainly reading what I wrote completely different than I do.Wow...sorry, I did not intend to mistake you for that strawman over there...
Nice strawman, happy strawman. Die evil strawman, die!
Again, apologies.
With that said, I do think every other level might be a bit too frequent. Maybe 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20?
Maybe you should read my top post because that's not much different from what I suggested ;) Your progression sounds fine to me.
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I have no problem with this.
The character's power is still measured by total number of feats, so the upper limit is still there.
Having to remember when you took a particular feat does not seem necessary, as long as the character is still (somehow) a legal build.
For those who think this option may be too powerful, this is actually less abusable than a player bringing a new or replacement PC into an ongoing game, and having freedom to customise his PC to his heart's content.