RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I've just taken a better look at both the Gazeteer, and The Demon Within, and i must admit i am a little worried and (frankly) pissed off. While i like the premise of D3, with its under-siege fortress and demonic infiltration, i must say the larger picture of a "Chaos Waste" that will almost certainly engulf all of Golarion while most of the world could not care less feels... off to me.
Maybe it is because of its northern location, or the described "Only the ancient whatchamacallits hold it in check, but for how long?" situation, but please leave these credibility-straining, overused "apocalypse any day now" elements subdued and local. Mendev may be in real danger, but the "continent and eventually world-spanning hell on earth" just... well, frankly i find it tired and abused so badly by GWs fiction and game books that even a fresh look doesn't quite thrill me. With "not quite thrill" being very diplomatic.
That said, a few high-level modules addressing this issue at its core , not necessarily stopping it dead, but allowing some real victories over the forces of the Abyss, not just "retake our land by the skin of our teeth" would be very welcome to me. :)
Director of Brand Strategy
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Seems like a bit of an overreaction to me. Sure, there are parts of Golarion that I would have done differently, and might alter in my own game, but there's no single element that is so earth-shattering that it is making me worried or (frankly) pissed off. Is this one nation so important that it taints the whole setting? In any case, the books are not only printed, but released, so your gripes won't really have any effect on the world, so why bother making such a big deal out of it? Just don't set your game in Mendev, or alter it so that it meets your standards of what a campaign setting should be.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'm not making a huge deal out of that (Notice the lack of drama queen threats ;) ). What worries me is the fact that it is there, and "should" be a big deal. I mean, hell on your doorsteps usually is.
What worries me is that such a scenario is in my limited experience extremely hard to do right, and you only need to slip once to mess up your setting forever. That is why i usually try to steer clear of these in my own homebrew.
While "Don't look there" may work very well for my home game, i am a bit... worried about the "larger Golarion". Especially if the timeline is supposed to advance. Call me burned by "And all the Anti-Tremere go POOF!" pulled by White Wolf a few years back. :)
EDIT: Removed smartass comments.
I've just taken a better look at both the Gazeteer, and The Demon Within, and i must admit i am a little worried and (frankly) pissed off. While i like the premise of D3, with its under-siege fortress and demonic infiltration, i must say the larger picture of a "Chaos Waste" that will almost certainly engulf all of Golarion while most of the world could not care less feels... off to me.
Maybe it is because of its northern location, or the described "Only the ancient whatchamacallits hold it in check, but for how long?" situation, but please leave these credibility-straining, overused "apocalypse any day now" elements subdued and local. Mendev may be in real danger, but the "continent and eventually world-spanning hell on earth" just... well, frankly i find it tired and abused so badly by GWs fiction and game books that even a fresh look doesn't quite thrill me. With "not quite thrill" being very diplomatic.
That said, a few high-level modules addressing this issue at its core , not necessarily stopping it dead, but allowing some real victories over the forces of the Abyss, not just "retake our land by the skin of our teeth" would be very welcome to me. :)
Everyone has their preferential genres. I for one love the "world teetering on the edge of being plunged in oblivion" plot device. Doomed crusaders slugging away at the evil of evils is certainly not a new idea but few ideas are new anymore. Its not the seed of the idea that matters, but how its cultivated and what grows from it. If you find Mendev a place stunted by a boring plot line, ignore it. That's why Golarion is a big, wide eyed world. Plenty for everyone.
As for why the world would tolerate this open sore....the gazetteer does mention that foreign soldiers are already on the scene crusading away at the darkness. Yes, this effort is meager, but what is the realistic alternative? The likelihood of a united nations styled peace keeping force being assembled is slim. First, I doubt many nations could spare dispatching a force necessary to make a difference. Second, many nations would be fearful of a massive army drawn from many nationalities assembling on their lands, much less marching through them. In addition, I believe if an army did manage to assemble itself, found some kind of impartial way to lead itself, the only likely approach would be to march through Numeria and I doubt they would welcome this foreign incursion with open arms and for that matter with the food and supplies necessary to stage said army. The other issue with the "world caring less" philosophy is indeed yes this gaping hole in Golarion is in the distant north. Stories filter down into the heartlands, but how many of them are believed? Even in our present time of constant media coverage, we still say, "oh it can't be that bad." Darfur comes to mind....I don't find Mendev's fight, credibility straining. Anyhow, though people want their fantasy world grounded with a certain sense of reality....it's still a fantasy world.
I'm not making a huge deal out of that (Notice the lack of drama queen threats ;) ). What worries me is the fact that it is there, and "should" be a big deal. I mean, hell on your doorsteps usually is.
What worries me is that such a scenario is in my limited experience extremely hard to do right, and you only need to slip once to mess up your setting forever. That is why i usually try to steer clear of these in my own homebrew.
While "Don't look there" may work very well for my home game, i am a bit... worried about the "larger Golarion". Especially if the timeline is supposed to advance. Call me burned by "And all the Anti-Tremere go POOF!" pulled by White Wolf a few years back. :)
EDIT: Removed smartass comments.
Going out on a limb here..... but from what I read I think we can trust the staff at Paizo not to sink Golarion into an oblivion world destroying metaplot. Are you worried that because you feel there is no possibility of Mendev holding, Paizo is setting us up for some kind of world shattering timeline advancement with hell on earth pouring over the setting you've become endeared with? Trying to speak for others.... but I think when the Paizo staffers created Golarion they wanted to provide many distinct genres in as coherent a fashion. Mendev happens to be the focal point of one of these genres. I don't think they're planning on letting it over flow into the rest of Golarion or becoming a dominant theme in the setting.
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Creative Director
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We've spent a year building Golarion. Blowing it up anytime soon is not on any of our agendas.
Which is another way of saying that the situation in the Worldwound, while dire and dangerous, won't be busting open to engulf the world anytime soon. Unless we do a big adventure about the possibility of it, in which case it's up to the PCs to stop it.
If the Worldwound and its threat were anything but relatively subdued and local, you would have heard a lot more about them in Pathfinder's Adventrue paths or the non-Demon Within adventures, in any case, so you don't have much to worry about.
The references to the worldwound do read like it's only a matter of time before Golarion is drawn wholesale into the Abyss. Avistan running out of heroes and so on.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you. It's a nice threat, a plot device perfect for epic level play that doesn't all take place in the planes or in a nation where everyone and everything is 20 levels higher than elsewhere.
And the fact that the whole continent doesn't band together to take care of this problem isn't that surprising to me: It's not impending. It's not quite on the horizon yet. It's not "unless we stop this now, we won't live to see the next winter", maybe not even "... won't live to see our children grow up."
And there are more pressing matters, like making sure that your cut-throat neighbours from next nation won't conquer your homeland while you go save the world.
"The other nations want to know what they'll get out of helping us save the world."
"Well, I thought we saved the world for them, too."
"Yes, but that doesn't exactly give them an advantage they haven't had before. Nothing changed for them."
"But if we don't do it, their nations will go down."
"Yes.... but this is politics. Besides, everyone's nations would go down, so they wouldn't end up worse than everyone else."
(It's not word perfect, but a conversation very much like this took place in The Last Hero. Like always, Terry Pratchett knows people suprisingly well.)
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My only complaint about the Worldwound is that it sounds like such an interesting setting I want to set my games there... and Cheliax, and Absalom, and Land of the Mammoth Kings, and... and... and...
dang it guys, I can only run so many games in so many locations... You guys are making too many interesting and irresistable locations.
Stop making such good stuff!
I tell ya what we need is an adventure that takes the PCs all over the world.
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Back in the day...
I used to run my games in Mystara. I had the same problem, just smaller quantity. I wanted a game that would take my party across the Known World.
So I set the foundation for a world war. The PCs job was to stop it. The PCs were members of an elite combined military force, composed of humans, elves and dwarves, which patrolled a common border with the orcs. The cool thing was that the PCs had factions too, sort of. They reported to their military commander, to their own governments, their churches and guilds. The political intrigue got hot and heavy because often times the players were working against one another.
Anyway, they first run into the problem when their fort is overrun by orcs using enchanted dwarven arms and armor. The dwarves are accused of supply arms to the orcs to overun the human and elven nations. They follow leads to Rockhome and from there to every counry on the map, until they get to the final city. There a powerful wizard, who hated dwarves, elves, halflings and about everyone, wanted to start a world war to weaken the other powers. Then his country could overrun the survivors and claim it all for him.
The party finally fought him, to find out he was in fact a red dragon. The final fight was nasty and brutal. All but one PC was dead. The dragon was slain (barely) and the next round the last PC died from his wounds. No survivors. But they saved the Known World from certain doom.
And in the process they visited every nation, solved puzzles, rescued maidens and explored ruins. It was the best campaign I ever had.
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Maybe it is because of its northern location, or the described "Only the ancient whatchamacallits hold it in check, but for how long?" situation, but please leave these credibility-straining, overused "apocalypse any day now" elements subdued and local. Mendev may be in real danger, but the "continent and eventually world-spanning hell on earth" just... well, frankly i find it tired and abused so badly by GWs fiction and game books that even a fresh look doesn't quite thrill me. With "not quite thrill" being very diplomatic.
That being said, once Pathfinder is firmly established, I wouldn't mind see a post-apocalyptic setting ala Rifts or Torg that uses the Pathfinder system. Just a suggestion.
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I tell ya what we need is an adventure that takes the PCs all over the world.
I ran a campaign in the Uresia setting for Big Eyes Small Mouth that was almost exactly this. In that setting a group of primeval beings had taken control of an elven kingdom as the result of a desperate deal from that kingdom's elders to overthrow an occupying nation. Some of the elves in the kingdom felt that this was just trading one oppressor for another, and so when rumors that an ancient ritual could banish the darkness were heard the PCs were brought in to help find it. The problem was the different parts of the ritual were scattered across the known world and hidden away in secret. And since this was an anime game, the parts were all mystically tattooed on the bodies of elven maidens, ala Those Who Hunt Elves.
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And since this was an anime game, the parts were all mystically tattooed on the bodies of elven maidens, ala Those Who Hunt Elves.
Ahhhh sweet I must remember that one and use it.
"excuse me, but you have a wonderful tatoo. I must examin it in great detail to save the world. Please take off your clothes and get comfortable. Would you like some wine to relax? And remember your cooperation will save the world."
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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The references to the worldwound do read like it's only a matter of time before Golarion is drawn wholesale into the Abyss. Avistan running out of heroes and so on.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you. It's a nice threat, a plot device perfect for epic level play that doesn't all take place in the planes or in a nation where everyone and everything is 20 levels higher than elsewhere.
[...]
That pretty much sums up my concern. The Gazetteer left the impression that this was another "inevitable slide into oblivion any day now", which is exactly what i do not really want to see done yet again. While it is a small part of the actual world, it has a large effect on how the setting "smells" to the reader. I've actually had a player reject the whole setting on grounds of it being "Yet another doomed world not worth fighting for", and he only joined my playtest group after i promised not to touch Mendev with a 30' pole.
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That pretty much sums up my concern. The Gazetteer left the impression that this was another "inevitable slide into oblivion any day now", which is exactly what i do not really want to see done yet again. While it is a small part of the actual world, it has a large effect on how the setting "smells" to the reader. I've actually had a player reject the whole setting on grounds of it being "Yet another doomed world not worth fighting for", and he only joined my playtest group after i promised not to touch Mendev with a 30' pole.The references to the worldwound do read like it's only a matter of time before Golarion is drawn wholesale into the Abyss. Avistan running out of heroes and so on.
Not that I'm complaining, mind you. It's a nice threat, a plot device perfect for epic level play that doesn't all take place in the planes or in a nation where everyone and everything is 20 levels higher than elsewhere.
[...]
Sounds like said player needs to get over himself...
Let's see we are in a recession, the world is overpopulated, Global Warming threatens to erradicate our food supply...
Yet another world not worth fighting for...
I assume he wants to play in a Disney Land-esque world?
I guess the god dying, an asteroid slamming into the world, a permanant hurricane, etc are not doom and gloom enough, the kicker is a demon infested land... tell him I have some old Dr Seuss books he can have.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Which is another way of saying that the situation in the Worldwound, while dire and dangerous, won't be busting open to engulf the world anytime soon. Unless we do a big adventure about the possibility of it, in which case it's up to the PCs to stop it.
If the Worldwound and its threat were anything but relatively subdued and local, you would have heard a lot more about them in Pathfinder's Adventrue paths or the non-Demon Within adventures, in any case, so you don't have much to worry about.
That is good to hear. I for one just wanted to raise that flag a little. There are enough "On the brink of the apocalypse" worlds out of there (Warhammer, Midnight, almost anything White Wolf ever produced, ...) and i actually like what i know about the rest of Golarion way too much to see it sacrificed for the cheap "Yeah, but all life depends on you" kind of enforced-motivation scenarios.
One of my pet peeves with these worlds is that they are specifically not worth fighting for. If you can only win pyrrhic victories that at best delay the inevitable another few weeks, it is extremely frustrating to the players. In addition, these settings usually are in such piss-poor situations that oblivion does not even look so bad, once you look closely.
I guess the Worldwound and crusader-overrun Mendev, where the LG Queen does not care that holy warriors burn innocents pushed all the wrong buttons with me and my group.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Sounds like said player needs to get over himself...
Let's see we are in a recession, the world is overpopulated, Global Warming threatens to erradicate our food supply...
Yet another world not worth fighting for...
I assume he wants to play in a Disney Land-esque world?
I guess the god dying, an asteroid slamming into the world, a permanant hurricane, etc are not doom and gloom enough, the kicker is a demon infested land... tell him I have some old Dr Seuss books he can have.
Thanks for being so constructive ;)
Seriously, though... the kicker here is the "Can not win" angle. While i am not quite as extreme in my view as that player, i do understand where he is coming from.: "If you can not win, why bother playing?"
The asteroid impact, Death of Aroden, permanent hurricane, ... all are background elements that do not prevent you from having a noticeable effect on the world at large. In fact, none of the three has any major implications on the future beyond being history. Yet if you know that a some years down the road, everything will be overrun with the hordes of the abyss, that takes away your chance of heroism. Why bother if the Whispering Tyrant conquers Lastwall, if it's not going to matter in 50 years... might actually be better for the people there to die now, instead of being soul-eaten later.
It is like playing Civilization on your computer, knowing full well that whatever you do won't matter because once you reach 200 AD, an unstoppable army of space aliens spawns and wipes you off the map.
That pretty much sums up my concern. The Gazetteer left the impression that this was another "inevitable slide into oblivion any day now", which is exactly what i do not really want to see done yet again.
Not "any day now". I pointed out that it is exactly not "any day now". It's "sooner or later".
If it becomes immenent, there will probably a more joint effort to contain it, maybe even with Cheliax going first (or, rather, Cheliax's devil allies going first) to show those abyssal punks what real fiendish power looks like.
But it's not immenent, so there's lots of people and nations who table it. Just like in the real world, really.
While it is a small part of the actual world, it has a large effect on how the setting "smells" to the reader. I've actually had a player reject the whole setting on grounds of it being "Yet another doomed world not worth fighting for", and he only joined my playtest group after i promised not to touch Mendev with a 30' pole.
Wow. I'd have just done without him.
And since this was an anime game, the parts were all mystically tattooed on the bodies of elven maidens, ala Those Who Hunt Elves.Ahhhh sweet I must remember that one and use it.
"excuse me, but you have a wonderful tatoo. I must examin it in great detail to save the world. Please take off your clothes and get comfortable. Would you like some wine to relax? And remember your cooperation will save the world."
They didn't exactly go about it like that. They more or less just hunted them down (it *was* "those who hunt elves") and ripped off their clothes to look at the tattoo (to "defend" the series, though, you didn't get to see any nekkid elf chicks, though). Not a group of maniacs known for their subtlety.
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They didn't exactly go about it like that. They more or less just hunted them down (it *was* "those who hunt elves") and ripped off their clothes to look at the tattoo (to "defend" the series, though, you didn't get to see any nekkid elf chicks, though). Not a group of maniacs known for their subtlety.
Wait wait wait wait... you're telling me... wait I am really trying to comprehend this here... you create that cool setting and adventure and... and... and no one gets to see any nekkid elf chicks?!?!?!?!?!?!
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
that's it! I'm taking my cheetos and Mtn Dew and going home to the internet.
*mumbling* I mean really all that work and not ONE lousy nekkid elf chick. sounds like a crappy game... maybe I can go play in a world where it is doomed and all hope is lost... that would be more exciting than playing in a lousy game with NO NEKKID ELF CHICKS! *mumbling*
Just for that you can't have a copy of my Hot Elf Chicks calendar when it comes out next year *see links in the pointy eared elf" thread.
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Creative Director
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Seriously, though... the kicker here is the "Can not win" angle. While i am not quite as extreme in my view as that player, i do understand where he is coming from.: "If you can not win, why bother playing?"
I'll counter that with this argument: "If the world's such a happy place with no big conflicts, why does anyone become an adventurer in the first place?" Put another way... a game world NEEDS conflict if it's gonna work at all as a game world.
The asteroid impact, Death of Aroden, permanent hurricane, ... all are background elements that do not prevent you from having a noticeable effect on the world at large. In fact, none of the three has any major implications on the future beyond being history. Yet if you know that a some years down the road, everything will be overrun with the hordes of the abyss, that takes away your chance of heroism. Why bother if the Whispering Tyrant conquers Lastwall, if it's not going to matter in 50 years... might actually be better for the people there to die now, instead of being soul-eaten later.
The future of Golarion isn't set in stone. We've mapped out the history of the world up to the current point, but we're not really using the adventures to map out the progress of events on a year-to-year basis. Rise of the Runelords, for example, was printed in 2007, and while by implication that means that it takes place in the year 4707 in Golarion... that's not CANON. You can fire up a Runelords game in 4707, 4708, 4770, or whenever. Same goes for most every adventure we publish, with the exception of direct sequels.
The Pathfinder Society MIGHT end up establishing an advancing timeline, but if it does, that's actually an argument for keeping events in the Pathfinder Society relatively small-key. I'm not interested in publishing something that, say, sinks Varisia into the sea, since that implies that you can't play Runelords or Crimson Throne or Second Darkness after a current point. That sort of self-obsolescence might work for other companies, but it doesn't sit well with me. That said... that would not in any way prevent me from publishing an adventure in which the bad guy WANTS to sink Varisia into the sea, and that if the PCs fail that adventure, that's what happens. But that's just canon for one game group, not the entire line of products.
One more thing. One of the base design philosophies for Golarion is that we want to create a game world that accommodates a WEALTH of game play styles. If you like gritty, Conan-style fantasy, check out the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. If you like creepy Ravenloft style horror, check out Ustalav. If you like pirates and swashbuckling adventure, check out the Shackles. If you like Knights in Shining Armor, check out Lastwall. If you like mixing sci-fi with your fantasy, check out Numeria. If you like high-fantasy with crazy magic, check out Nex or Geb. And if you like a really downbeat, grim, "we can't win but at least we can die trying," check out the Worldwound.
If one of those regions doesn't appeal to you, it's pretty easy to ignore that region.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Seriously, though... the kicker here is the "Can not win" angle. While i am not quite as extreme in my view as that player, i do understand where he is coming from.: "If you can not win, why bother playing?"I'll counter that with this argument: "If the world's such a happy place with no big conflicts, why does anyone become an adventurer in the first place?" Put another way... a game world NEEDS conflict if it's gonna work at all as a game world.
Agreed. :) Conflict needs to be there. But conflict should not be hopeless.
The Pathfinder Society MIGHT end up establishing an advancing timeline, but if it does, that's actually an argument for keeping events in the Pathfinder Society relatively small-key. I'm not interested in publishing something that, say, sinks Varisia into the sea, since that implies that you can't play Runelords or Crimson Throne or Second Darkness after a current point. That sort of self-obsolescence might work for other companies, but it doesn't sit well with me. That said... that would not in any way prevent me from publishing an adventure in which the bad guy WANTS to sink Varisia into the sea, and that if the PCs fail that adventure, that's what happens. But that's just canon for one game group, not the entire line of products.
That is very good to know, actually. "Metaplot" has become a swearword around my gaming table. In an adventure, pretty much anything goes, agreed. It is canonical consequences that can really become a horrible problem IMHO
One more thing. One of the base design philosophies for Golarion is that we want to create a game world that accommodates a WEALTH of game play styles. If you like gritty, Conan-style fantasy, check out the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. If you like creepy Ravenloft style horror, check out Ustalav. If you like pirates and swashbuckling adventure, check out the Shackles. If you like Knights in Shining Armor, check out Lastwall. If you like mixing sci-fi with your fantasy, check out Numeria. If you like high-fantasy with crazy magic, check out Nex or Geb. And if you like a really downbeat, grim, "we can't win but at least we can die trying," check out the Worldwound.
If one of those regions doesn't appeal to you, it's pretty easy to ignore that region.
That's what we are currently doing. I really am not "all up in arms against Mendev" as much as the player i mentioned. I was merely concerned about the "dying light" feeling i sensed here, and that the "running out of heroes" quote signifies a spread of that feeling to the rest of the setting.
Thanks for clearing this one up, and sorry to be a bother ;)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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We're aware of the risks of metaplot and don't intend to change major things about the world before we've even finished detailing it.
Which (as the author of the Worldwound) is my way of saying: So noted, try not to worry too much about it.
As James said, when I sat down with Bulmahn to create the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, I tried to think of as many campaign styles as possible and then wove together a world where all of them could be used. The whole "force back the tide of evil" thing is one such style, so we included it. I put it up near the top so it would be more easily ignored by players who don't care for that style of play.
--Erik
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We're aware of the risks of metaplot and don't intend to change major things about the world before we've even finished detailing it.
Which (as the author of the Worldwound) is my way of saying: So noted, try not to worry too much about it.
As James said, when I sat down with Bulmahn to create the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, I tried to think of as many campaign styles as possible and then wove together a world where all of them could be used. The whole "force back the tide of evil" thing is one such style, so we included it. I put it up near the top so it would be more easily ignored by players who don't care for that style of play.
--Erik
ahhh so this is realy really interesting...
would you be willing to reveal a bit more about the creation process? I like the idea of brainstorming on playing styles, creating palces for them and then arranging them.
I don't think of it as a spoiler, rather a methodology to help my own creative aspirations. It is easy enough to come up with ideas, buut then executing the idea and making it fit the original vision is often the harder part for me. Any methodology that I can "borrow" peices of will help.
:)
Please
:)
I'm not making a huge deal out of that (Notice the lack of drama queen threats ;) ...
No, really. You're about to go play 4E aren't you.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I'm not making a huge deal out of that (Notice the lack of drama queen threats ;) ...No, really. You're about to go play 4E aren't you.
I don't even own 4E, and frankly... if i wanted to play a system based on "exception based design", with characters who start heroes and become demigods in short order... I'd go with Exalted, first Edition. :)
But as it stands, i am having too much fun reading the Adventure paths, and playing the odd module in the playtest (no Demon Within, though)
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Back in the day...
I used to run my games in Mystara. I had the same problem, just smaller quantity. I wanted a game that would take my party across the Known World.
So I set the foundation for a world war. The PCs job was to stop it. The PCs were members of an elite combined military force, composed of humans, elves and dwarves, which patrolled a common border with the orcs. The cool thing was that the PCs had factions too, sort of. They reported to their military commander, to their own governments, their churches and guilds. The political intrigue got hot and heavy because often times the players were working against one another.
Anyway, they first run into the problem when their fort is overrun by orcs using enchanted dwarven arms and armor. The dwarves are accused of supply arms to the orcs to overun the human and elven nations. They follow leads to Rockhome and from there to every counry on the map, until they get to the final city. There a powerful wizard, who hated dwarves, elves, halflings and about everyone, wanted to start a world war to weaken the other powers. Then his country could overrun the survivors and claim it all for him.
The party finally fought him, to find out he was in fact a red dragon. The final fight was nasty and brutal. All but one PC was dead. The dragon was slain (barely) and the next round the last PC died from his wounds. No survivors. But they saved the Known World from certain doom.
And in the process they visited every nation, solved puzzles, rescued maidens and explored ruins. It was the best campaign I ever had.
Have you ever watched "The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny"? If not, you should. Its a 3-5 minute music video about a battle between pretty much everyone in the world. Amongst others, the video has cameos from Godzilla, Shaq, Aaron Carter, Jackie Chan, Indiana Jones, Optimus Prime, Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf the White, Monte Python and the Holy Grails Black Night, Benito Mussolini, the Blue Meany, Cowboy Curtis, Jambi the Genie, Robocop, the Terminator, Captain Kirk, Darth Vader, Lopan, Superman, Bill S. Preston, Theodor Logan, Spock, the Rock, Doc Octupus, Hulk Hogan, Chuck Norris and many others.
Essentially, they all fight each other for no good reason with one survivor who then commits ritual Sepuko. I wish I had a link, but you can find it easily enough if you google it.
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I'll counter that with this argument: "If the world's such a happy place with no big conflicts, why does anyone become an adventurer in the first place?" Put another way... a game world NEEDS conflict if it's gonna work at all as a game world.
I'm not sure adventurers is a correct term here. An adventurer could be an explorer, or artist, or anyone with an imagination to go beyond what they are.
I think the correct way to look at it, if the world is such a happy place, the world doesn't need heroes.
I'm not interested in publishing something that, say, sinks Varisia into the sea, since that implies that you can't play Runelords or Crimson Throne or Second Darkness after a current point. That sort of self-obsolescence might work for other companies, but it doesn't sit well with me.
Doesn't sit well for me.. or a lot of other fans of other settings who've been burned hard.
That said... that would not in any way prevent me from publishing an adventure in which the bad guy WANTS to sink Varisia into the sea, and that if the PCs fail that adventure, that's what happens. But that's just canon for one game group, not the entire line of products.
There should always be the possibility of failure and consequences for failure. If some PCs survive or you continue to play in that setting, it creates a unique history for those players.
One more thing. One of the base design philosophies for Golarion is that we want to create a game world that accommodates a WEALTH of game play styles. If you like gritty, Conan-style fantasy, check out the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. If you like creepy Ravenloft style horror, check out Ustalav. If you like pirates and swashbuckling adventure, check out the Shackles. If you like Knights in Shining Armor, check out Lastwall. If you like mixing sci-fi with your fantasy, check out Numeria. If you like high-fantasy with crazy magic, check out Nex or Geb. And if you like a really downbeat, grim, "we can't win but at least we can die trying," check out the Worldwound.
Something for everyone is what I love about Pathfinder. Lots of familiar and lots new.
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We're aware of the risks of metaplot and don't intend to change major things about the world before we've even finished detailing it.
Which (as the author of the Worldwound) is my way of saying: So noted, try not to worry too much about it.
As James said, when I sat down with Bulmahn to create the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting, I tried to think of as many campaign styles as possible and then wove together a world where all of them could be used. The whole "force back the tide of evil" thing is one such style, so we included it. I put it up near the top so it would be more easily ignored by players who don't care for that style of play.
--Erik
And when can we expect an AP for Worldwound, maybe start at the Inner sea as protecters for the Pilgrams?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Back in the day...
I used to run my games in Mystara. I had the same problem, just smaller quantity. I wanted a game that would take my party across the Known World.
Coulda' just had them join the crew of the Princess Ark. ;)
[Have you ever watched "The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny"? If not, you should. Its a 3-5 minute music video about a battle between pretty much everyone in the world. Amongst others, the video has cameos from Godzilla, Shaq, Aaron Carter, Jackie Chan, Indiana Jones, Optimus Prime, Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf the White, Monte Python and the Holy Grails Black Night, Benito Mussolini, the Blue Meany,...It's Awesome!!!
I would like to point out something about Mr Jacobs statement about encompassing multiple styles of play.
The best made world for gaming plot up to date is Eberron in my opinion, and most of my gaming group agrees...they simply don't like the setting (i.e psionic continent, warforged, shifters, etc). Eberron was built in with enough plothooks and open-ended intrigue that it made dreaming up a story and direction even on the fly a simple matter if you knew the material...it basically made the artful part of gaming much much easier and enjoyable.
From a DM's perspective, after reading the books I wish all settings were made that way and you don't have to clumsily trip over pre-existing events that your PC's have nothing to do with because it alters the very history of setting...it's much more fun to be involved in the history (even in a small way) and use the setting hooks to paint what you want to.
Pathfinder helps me solve this problem because everybody likes the setting unlike Eberron, yet it seems to have been created in similar fashion. To be honest this is the most important thing in gaming for me, not the mechanical changes.
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I would like to point out something about Mr Jacobs statement about encompassing multiple styles of play.
The best made world for gaming plot up to date is Eberron in my opinion, and most of my gaming group agrees...they simply don't like the setting (i.e psionic continent, warforged, shifters, etc). Eberron was built in with enough plothooks and open-ended intrigue that it made dreaming up a story and direction even on the fly a simple matter if you knew the material...it basically made the artful part of gaming much much easier and enjoyable.
From a DM's perspective, after reading the books I wish all settings were made that way and you don't have to clumsily trip over pre-existing events that your PC's have nothing to do with because it alters the very history of setting...it's much more fun to be involved in the history (even in a small way) and use the setting hooks to paint what you want to.Pathfinder helps me solve this problem because everybody likes the setting unlike Eberron, yet it seems to have been created in similar fashion. To be honest this is the most important thing in gaming for me, not the mechanical changes.
I agree if some doesn't like a world they won't play.
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I would like to point out something about Mr Jacobs statement about encompassing multiple styles of play.
The best made world for gaming plot up to date is Eberron in my opinion, and most of my gaming group agrees... Pathfinder helps me solve this problem because everybody likes the setting unlike Eberron, yet it seems to have been created in similar fashion. To be honest this is the most important thing in gaming for me, not the mechanical changes.
It's like you're reading my mind; I agree completely.
I love the history of FR; and I love reading the source matter, but I enjoy gaming in Eberron more than in any other setting. I love Golarion because it seems to be a refined, perfected version of the Eberron concept.
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As a long-standing fan of Legend of the Five Rings, let me first say that I love games with metaplot. It makes them feel more vibrant, more alive, and more real. With that out of the way, let me also say that I liked L5R's metaplot before the emperor vanished/died for the fourth time in two generations. There's a certain point where you've got enough metaplot, and that's all you need. Once you start retreading the same ground, or throwing yet another world-shattering disaster at the setting in a relatively short period of time, or making old game information totally obsolete, that's bad. Good metaplot should be subtle and easy to work into your own game, and not invalidate rulebooks or entire fluff supplements (White Wolf, I'm looking at you!).
And I like the Worldwound. I mean, the Shadowlands. I mean, the Worldwound. XD
Jeremy Puckett
Wait wait wait wait... you're telling me... wait I am really trying to comprehend this here... you create that cool setting and adventure and... and... and no one gets to see any nekkid elf chicks?!?!?!?!?!?!YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!
that's it! I'm taking my cheetos and Mtn Dew and going home to the internet.
*mumbling* I mean really all that work and not ONE lousy nekkid elf chick. sounds like a crappy game... maybe I can go play in a world where it is doomed and all hope is lost... that would be more exciting than playing in a lousy game with NO NEKKID ELF CHICKS! *mumbling*
Just for that you can't have a copy of my Hot Elf Chick
It's an anime series, not a game. Or maybe there is a game, but I only ever saw the series.
And I know - it was shocking: Anime without nekkid chicks - especially with that premise. But those Japanese know how to really surprise people.
And I like the Worldwound. I mean, the Shadowlands. I mean, the Worldwound. XD
Now there's a happy use of my Lo5R material... *squee*
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I think the correct way to look at it, if the world is such a happy place, the world doesn't need heroes.
see, I'm not sure I would agree with heroes either. The vast majority of PCs really aren't "heroes." Often times they wind up being guys not quite as bad as the villain.
I mean breaking and entering, looting, wanton bloodshed, theft, drunkeness, carousing, etc etc etc doesn't strike me as heroic. I never saw Superman do those things...
I think I would just say a world like that doesn't need PCs :)
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Back in the day...
I used to run my games in Mystara. I had the same problem, just smaller quantity. I wanted a game that would take my party across the Known World.
Coulda' just had them join the crew of the Princess Ark. ;)
That came out a bit after we started the game :) Which, of course I have every issue now of the Princess Ark. :)
I think the correct way to look at it, if the world is such a happy place, the world doesn't need heroes.
see, I'm not sure I would agree with heroes either. The vast majority of PCs really aren't "heroes." Often times they wind up being guys not quite as bad as the villain.
I mean breaking and entering, looting, wanton bloodshed, theft, drunkeness, carousing, etc etc etc doesn't strike me as heroic. I never saw Superman do those things...
I think I would just say a world like that doesn't need PCs :)
Superman isn't a typical hero. He's propaganda material from the Heroes' Guild.
But your example shows how much a D&D world needs to be a dangerous place - if it wasn't, no one would put up with those bloodthirsty maniacs. But since there happens to be some guy who wants to plunge the whole world into chaos every otehr week, they put up with those "heroes" and their "antics" - because it's better than becoming demonfood - or worse.
James, you said in response to TerraNova's comment about being concerned about settings where the future is in such turmoil that the end of the world is nigh: "I'll counter that with this argument: "If the world's such a happy place with no big conflicts, why does anyone become an adventurer in the first place?" Put another way... a game world NEEDS conflict if it's gonna work at all as a game world."
TerraNova, as he stated, isn't against conflict- he's against oppressive dark, disturbing conflict.
And I have to agree with him that it's overdone.
In terms of credentials, I love China Mieville's extremely dark fantasy books, but they are dang depressing.
And frankly, the whole "points of light" thing for 4E annoys me a lot It calls to mind Greyhawk, which felt un-heroic (dying every five steps), and relatively low-powered 1E. Interestingly 4E's schtick seems to be "high-powered" but everyone else is weak, which frankly seems a little ridiculous when a DM needs to keep the players in line and let them know they aren't above the law and can't just roam and wreak havoc (CN and N players- I'm looking specifically at most of you for those particular atrocities). As an earlier poster stated, if I wanted to play Exalted, I would play Exalted.
While Forgotten Realms' power levels are ridiculous- Eberron's make sense- that's the direction I think a comprehensive game should adopt- the middle path. Interestingly, that middle path appears to be what James describes Pathfinder as striving toward, a world where either extreme can be enjoyed.
Examples of good fantasy with positive and yet grown-up themes where the players and the world can be made better with conflict are Eberron- or Lawrence Watt Evans' Ethshar series. Frankly, I think it's harder to write good fantasy adventures in a world like those- but much more rewarding because it's unique.
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Also James: "The Pathfinder Society MIGHT end up establishing an advancing timeline, but if it does, that's actually an argument for keeping events in the Pathfinder Society relatively small-key. I'm not interested in publishing something that, say, sinks Varisia into the sea, since that implies that you can't play Runelords or Crimson Throne or Second Darkness after a current point. That sort of self-obsolescence might work for other companies, but it doesn't sit well with me"
I very much agree with that idea. :)
The best made world for gaming plot up to date is Eberron in my opinion, and most of my gaming group agrees...they simply don't like the setting (i.e psionic continent, warforged, shifters, etc). Eberron was built in with enough plothooks and open-ended intrigue that it made dreaming up a story and direction even on the fly a simple matter if you knew the material...it basically made the artful part of gaming much much easier and enjoyable.
From a DM's perspective, after reading the books I wish all settings were made that way and you don't have to clumsily trip over pre-existing events that your PC's have nothing to do with because it alters the very history of setting...it's much more fun to be involved in the history (even in a small way) and use the setting hooks to paint what you want to.Pathfinder helps me solve this problem because everybody likes the setting unlike Eberron, yet it seems to have been created in similar fashion. To be honest this is the most important thing in gaming for me, not the mechanical changes.
Dave- you have it exactly right about the stylistics! :)
~LD
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I mean breaking and entering, looting, wanton bloodshed, theft, drunkeness, carousing, etc etc etc doesn't strike me as heroic. I never saw Superman do those things...
But Batman on the other hand does all of that except the last two on a regular basis. And Iron Man more than makes up for his lack on the last two.