I heard the new Rogue Preview was up so I went to check it out. Really disappointing. I mean, really disappointing. Everything's wrong with it.
To start: proficient with all simple weapons? Great--I guess rogues are too dumb to use anything complicated. Forget about being effective in combat. And "light" armor? Found a really cool set of dragon leather? Maybe a chain shirt? Tough luck--you can only wear "light" armor. And no shields, either, that's too complicated.
And how about those skills? Want to ride a horse? Too bad, Ride isn't a class skill. Want to be an expert dungeon-crawler? Too bad, Knowledge: Dungeoneering isn't a class skill. What to be a linguist? Too bad, Speak Language isn't a class skill. I guess that's not what rogues do. But hey--you get Perform, Tumble, and Balance to make up for it. Because rogues are supposed to prance and caper around, right?
And the class abilities are also kind of lame. Remember carefully sneaking around the evil boss and backstabbing him? Too hard. Now you have to "deny them their Dexterity bonus" (I assume with spells) or flank them. and forget doubling or tripling your damage, now you just roll a couple extra dice.
And how about Evasion? Right--a wizard lobs a fireball right at you and you're just "magically" unharmed. Super cheesy. I'll pass.
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The rogue preview's posted on www.d20srd.org, right?
Never mind; I thought it was funny!
But then, I am a sarcastic ranting bastard.
I thought it was funny too. And I'm NOT a sarcastic ranting bastard... well, not all at the same time anyway ;)
I just take this as proof the pro-4E crowd are just as trollish and blow-hardy as the anti-4E crowd.
Seriously guys, lets try to raise the level of discussion to reduce the trolling.
I agree.I just take this as proof the pro-4E crowd are just as trollish and blow-hardy as the anti-4E crowd.
Seriously guys, lets try to raise the level of discussion to reduce the trolling.
*CRAPS PANTS* Holy S***!!! If crosswired and I agree on something, you know its right.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I thought this was hilarious. If we're going to call this a troll, there are a number of posters that post in 4e threads with this exact same litany (minus the link to the d20 srd) who should also be labeled as trolls. That being said, such persons are normally serious whereas this post is clearly in jest.
Forget about being effective in combat. And "light" armor? Found a really cool set of dragon leather? Maybe a chain shirt? Tough luck--you can only wear "light" armor.
I know this was sarcastic and a joke or whatever but I thought I'd point out, chain shirt IS light armor. Research jokes better ;)
oh and btw rogues are often some of the most effective members in combat, in my esperience|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Forget about being effective in combat. And "light" armor? Found a really cool set of dragon leather? Maybe a chain shirt? Tough luck--you can only wear "light" armor.I know this was sarcastic and a joke or whatever but I thought I'd point out, chain shirt IS light armor. Research jokes better ;)
oh and btw rogues are often some of the most effective members in combat, in my esperience
That's part of the joke. If you were to read just the SRD rogue entry, there's nothing in it to indicate what is or is not light armor. Thus, you can twist it to mean anything you want. Similarly, there's a lot in the 4e rogue preview that is difficult to determine without the full rules set.
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*CRAPS PANTS* Holy S***!!! If crosswired and I agree on something, you know its right.I agree.I just take this as proof the pro-4E crowd are just as trollish and blow-hardy as the anti-4E crowd.
Seriously guys, lets try to raise the level of discussion to reduce the trolling.
I'm actually more agreeable than you may think.
I'm actually more agreeable than you may think.
To speak plainly, I think you and I agree on alot, it just so happens that the majority of our interaction is over 4E and that one point we do not agree. [Good natured ribbing] Well everyone has their faults.[/Good natured ribbing] But really, if you and I were at a game table together, I'd imagine we'd get along well, even if we don't see eye to eye on one thing.
That's part of the joke. If you were to read just the SRD rogue entry, there's nothing in it to indicate what is or is not light armor. Thus, you can twist it to mean anything you want. Similarly, there's a lot in the 4e rogue preview that is difficult to determine without the full rules set.
ah okay, well I wondered but then a lot of people make blanket rants w/o factual information so it's often hard to tell. Sarcasm, as much as I love it, doesn't come over in written form nearly as well.
Sarcasm, as much as I love it, doesn't come over in written form nearly as well.
In this case I think it worked just fine.
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I'm actually more agreeable than you may think.
To speak plainly, I think you and I agree on a lot, it just so happens that the majority of our interaction is over 4E and that one point we do not agree. [Good natured ribbing] Well everyone has their faults.[/Good natured ribbing] But really, if you and I were at a game table together, I'd imagine we'd get along well, even if we don't see eye to eye on one thing.
Bloody Hell!
Forget Middle East peace talks!I think I just saw a breakthrough!
If this is trolling, then I'm a Irish lass. Bloody hilarious, man. I don't think that it's trollish to parody some of the unreasonable arguments that have come out against 4e.
To be sure, there are plenty of pro-4e trolls out there - but this is just a joke.
BTW, how does a Rogue evade a Fireball that explodes upon impacting her? A big huge ball of fire (20' radius) explodes with the rogue at its nucleus and the rogue comes out completely unharmed through shear agility (but still in the same 5' square)?
BTW, how does a Rogue evade a Fireball that explodes upon impacting her?
Very carefully.
BTW, how does a Rogue evade a Fireball that explodes upon impacting her?Very carefully.
Maybe she Stops, Drops, and Rolls. She must have learned that in elementary school too!
That's part of the joke. If you were to read just the SRD rogue entry, there's nothing in it to indicate what is or is not light armor. Thus, you can twist it to mean anything you want. Similarly, there's a lot in the 4e rogue preview that is difficult to determine without the full rules set.Forget about being effective in combat. And "light" armor? Found a really cool set of dragon leather? Maybe a chain shirt? Tough luck--you can only wear "light" armor.I know this was sarcastic and a joke or whatever but I thought I'd point out, chain shirt IS light armor. Research jokes better ;)
oh and btw rogues are often some of the most effective members in combat, in my esperience
As far as I had experience with it, D&D pre-3 did not have chain shirts as armor at all. So from the POV of a pre-3 gamer, why is the question even posed.
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That's part of the joke. If you were to read just the SRD rogue entry, there's nothing in it to indicate what is or is not light armor. Thus, you can twist it to mean anything you want. Similarly, there's a lot in the 4e rogue preview that is difficult to determine without the full rules set.
Although there is a difference:
Light Armor could mean anything if you do not know what it is.But it would strech my belief to subsume Chain Shirt under "Leather Armor".
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If this is trolling, then I'm a Irish lass. Bloody hilarious, man. I don't think that it's trollish to parody some of the unreasonable arguments that have come out against 4e.
To be sure, there are plenty of pro-4e trolls out there - but this is just a joke.
BTW, how does a Rogue evade a Fireball that explodes upon impacting her? A big huge ball of fire (20' radius) explodes with the rogue at its nucleus and the rogue comes out completely unharmed through shear agility (but still in the same 5' square)?
She hides behind the fighter who is burnt to a crisp?
She leaps up the chandalier does a somersault and drops down in the space she was?
Did I spell chandalier and somersault correctly? I don't have one and can't do the other so you'll have to excuse me if I didn't.
But I get your point Chris. Easy fix. House rule: "The rogue must move 2 squares to evade."
Or we could raise the level of trolling to reduce the ... ummm ... low-level trolling?
yea that low-level trolling is way to swingy. we need to widen the sweet spot of trolling. And no more heroic trolling for us. Only paragon trolls and epic level trolls.
Although there is a difference:
Light Armor could mean anything if you do not know what it is.But it would strech my belief to subsume Chain Shirt under "Leather Armor".
I wonder if we'll see Hide Armor moved from medium into a lighter category (like leather).
On a similar note (and just as off-topic), on ENWorld someone analyzing the screen captures of the DDI noticed weapons grouped into simple, military, and superior. I wonder how that all works?
BTW, how does a Rogue evade a Fireball that explodes upon impacting her? A big huge ball of fire (20' radius) explodes with the rogue at its nucleus and the rogue comes out completely unharmed through shear agility (but still in the same 5' square)?She hides behind the fighter who is burnt to a crisp?
She leaps up the chandalier does a somersault and drops down in the space she was?
Did I spell chandalier and somersault correctly? I don't have one and can't do the other so you'll have to excuse me if I didn't.
But I get your point Chris. Easy fix. House rule: "The rogue must move 2 squares to evade."
Ah, but according to my hypothetical situation, the fireball explodes upon impacting the rogue herself. No time for chandeliers or somersaults or 2 square moves. I would house rule it that a Rogue cannot evade a fireball if it explodes upon impacting her.
Some day we'll have the perfect rules system, without holes, with simple rules that reflect the complexity of real life physics, and which pleases 100% of gamers, and converts all non-gamers to the gaming world. Just like world peace, it probably won't happen in my lifetime, but by D&D 45.7, I forsee a perfect system...
If I had to use one thread to sum up the level of sarcasm, infighting, trolling, eletisim and overall blase and ennui that has forced me into near-permanent lurk mode for the last four months, it would be this one. All it needs is some joke accounts and a little vomit, and I would be able to frame it and thus need only be able to point at it and say "This is why I stopped posting."
Hell, I stay logged out all the time so I won't say things like this. But alas, it is too late- The submit key has already been pressed.
If I had to use one thread to sum up the level of sarcasm, infighting, trolling, eletisim and overall blase and ennui that has forced me into near-permanent lurk mode for the last four months, it would be this one. All it needs is some joke accounts and a little vomit, and I would be able to frame it and thus need only be able to point at it and say "This is why I stopped posting."
Hell, I stay logged out all the time so I won't say things like this. But alas, it is too late- The submit key has already been pressed.
I hate to disagree, but the only thing missing is popcorn and candy. And I'm serious, not kidding. There's been plenty of really negative anti-4th edition lampoons.. and fair is fair.
The OP had a little fun, didn't insult anybody directly, and made some worthwhile points. I truly appreciate the desire for mature thoughtful discussion with mutual respect ...but the original post should not be the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.
And the posts that followed? Well, sometimes it's hard to take what has been dished out, and that's all you're seeing here. This by-play shouldn't be the condemnation of everything.
(I'm Edition Neutral btw)
If I had to use one thread to sum up the level of sarcasm, infighting, trolling, eletisim and overall blase and ennui that has forced me into near-permanent lurk mode for the last four months, it would be this one. All it needs is some joke accounts and a little vomit, and I would be able to frame it and thus need only be able to point at it and say "This is why I stopped posting."
I'm not sure I see the same barf inducing meanness you see. This thread is more in jest than anything. And if using humor to bring a point across is bad, than I'll stop reading Mark Twain and all other intelligent, thought-provoking satirists. To me this is nothing compared to the sometimes maddeningly ill thought out and unreasonable arguments and direct attacks people make on both sides of the edition aisle.