RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I have a confession to make. I've never really understood gnomes. I just don't get them.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a gnome-hater. I have no speciest objection to gnomes being in the game. Anyone wants to picket WotC headquarters with signs that saying "Honk if you love gnomes" I might honk. (I wouldn't really mean it by just to show support I'd probably honk).
Explain gnomes to me. In which novel can I find a really perfect gnome character? How would you play a 'typical' gnome.
Well you're at it, I also don't understand how 'emo' differs from 'goth'. If you feel like killing two birds with one stone, explain 'emo gnomes' to me.
Rumpelstiltskin was a gnome.
Well you're at it, I also don't understand how 'emo' differs from 'goth'. If you feel like killing two birds with one stone, explain 'emo gnomes' to me.
I don't know about emo gnomes, but goth is all about the fun in darkness and death, bands like Bauhaus, Souixie and the Banshees, and My Chemical Romance (though MCR is a little emo).
Emo is all about how I'M GOING TO CUT MYSELF, BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY DYING HEART! and bands like Dashboard Confessional (the ultimate emo band).
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Well you're at it, I also don't understand how 'emo' differs from 'goth'. If you feel like killing two birds with one stone, explain 'emo gnomes' to me.
I don't know about emo gnomes, but goth is all about the fun in darkness and death, bands like Bauhaus, Souixie and the Banshees, and My Chemical Romance (though MCR is a little emo).
Emo is all about how I'M GOING TO CUT MYSELF, BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY DYING HEART! and bands like Dashboard Confessional (the ultimate emo band).
That's easy. When I ask my students they just sneer and name emo people or bands. They don't tell me what makes them emo.
Thanks.
Explain gnomes to me. In which novel can I find a really perfect gnome character? How would you play a 'typical' gnome.
I hate to be a tease (but I will be a pimp): Kobold Quarterly #4 willl have an article by yours truly that attempts to answer this question. :-)
That's easy. When I ask my students they just sneer and name emo people or bands. They don't tell me what makes them emo.Thanks.
Alan Cross' The Ongoing History of New Music covers a wide verity of topics including the Goth Movement and Emo.
Episodes can be streamed and listened too and it may give you a better understanding of the two scenes and their differences.
This takes you to the page with the first episode on Goth (at the top of the list).
Gnomes are never really well-liked. I can't understand why. Personally, gnomes are among my favorites. But I guess I don't 'get' them either. They're an odd race. They have always been misrepresented by WotC. Gnomes could be more than silly little tinkerers and tricksters. I'll try and come up with a better way to represent them.
Well you're at it, I also don't understand how 'emo' differs from 'goth'. If you feel like killing two birds with one stone, explain 'emo gnomes' to me.
AHHH. Search Emo on paizo, I have a thread all about how I hate Emo Kids with a firey passion. Also go to Youtube and look up a video called Tickle Me Emo...I cut myself to feel...boo whoo grow up. Sorry not a fan of Emo-ness. Emo is kind of the whinny moody verison of goth. It tends to have less of a death and darkness motif and more of a my soul hurt with such saddness because no one loves or cares about me.
I will say goth women can be hot tho.
Gnome, think dwarf plus halfling with a dash of kender, that's at least how I see them.
Fizz
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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AHHH. Search Emo on paizo, I have a thread all about how I hate Emo Kids with a firey passion. Also go to Youtube and look up a video called Tickle Me Emo...I cut myself to feel...boo whoo grow up. Sorry not a fan of Emo-ness. Emo is kind of the whinny moody verison of goth. It tends to have less of a death and darkness motif and more of a my soul hurt with such saddness because no one loves or cares about me.
So the annoying goths that we would only invite to our parties back in the 80s because they had low self-esteem and were rather easy are now called emo?
I will say goth women can be hot tho.
Yes. Hence the party invitation.
Goth women are totally hot.
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Might I recommend the Kalamar book Friends and Foes: Gnomes and Kobolds for a nice take on the woodsy sort of gnomes. They love their festivals, live in hidden burrows, have badger riding knights and love jokes (especially puns). They are family and clan oriented. They spend a great deal of time planning before undertaking any project or endeavor from jokes to alchemy. They are also inquisitive, loving to take things apart to see how they work.
It's a pretty good book and the kobold section is also well worth the read.
I don't know anything about Goths and Emos; if I met two on the street I wouldn't even realize the difference. My guess is that the difference between the two is like the difference between a Baptist and a Jehovah's Witness--the difference is there somewhere, but it only matters to those involved in Christian theology. To the rest of us, Goths and Emos are just bad fashion statements.
As to gnomes, I think 'getting' gnomes is a matter of taste. I myself prefer the Dragonlance gnomes from Mt. Nevermind but a college buddie of mine loved gnomes. His recurring gnome character, named Dimbleton, was usually an archer based off of a gnome cartoon he watched as a kid--Rupert the Gnome or something. Dimbleton was the classic trickster-prankster; many was the inopportune moment when he would use prestidigitation to drop a paladin's visor down.
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In a sense, I think gnomes in D&D do have a loose resemblance to gnomish creatures of legend. Very loose, though. Thanks in large part to Dragonlance, though, they've developed a reputation as absurd tinkerers who have nothing better to do with their lives than try to blow themselves up with lunatic experiments.
You can get a sense of gnomes from their spell-like abilities, I think; they were somewhat fae creatures of the woods and the wilds - similar to how dwarves take on the temperament of the mountains in a 'traditional' sense, gnomes take on some of the feel of the woods - clever, tricky creatures who have a love of the colorful mysteries of their homes, prone to pranking those who can't share their feel for the natural world.
I'd say the gnomish hatred of kobolds comes from kobolds tending to turn their environs into an ongoing gauntlet of sorts, which makes it less a novelty to the gnomes.
This is all just IMO, of course.
Indeed there is often a bit of confusion between gnomes and halfings.
Especially if you consider halflings on the Tolkien aspect.
Both are rural and give high values to their community, family, parties and nature. Both are often silly and pranksters.
They also have some differences.
Gnomes are often more attracted by magic and technology.
But we all know we shouldn't judge a race on stereotypes.
Any race can vary greatly from one setting to another, from one world to another, even from one region to another.
Gnomes don't have to be stuck in their archetypes rogue/illusionist (cf. AD&D) or bard (D&D3), even if they excel in both.
A gnome can also be a fierce warrior, defending his community against invaders, and not only small ones like goblins and kobolds.
Using his size and his smarts, he can be a sneaky spy or even an assassin, without having to be a whisper gnome (in my opinion exagerated).
From his link with nature and animals, he can of course be a great druid, or a ranger.
Obviously he can also make a cool wizard.
Hey, he can be anything, like any race should. That's the point of a character race, isn't it ?
Gnomes are fun, original, imaginative, crazy.
They are... different.
They make great characters.
Go gnomes :)
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I've played many a Gnome character over the years, they're one of my favorites. Here is my interpretation.
It's good to always remember that Gnomes are Fey. Too many people play them too close to halflings or dwarves. Neither halflings or dwarves have natural magic abilities. In fact some dwarves are known for their anti-magic bent.
So I've always had the Gnomes in my campaign settings be a kin to the pixies and dryad's that inhabit a forest or wild hills. They "feel" the natural magic in the air. Some use that Fey connection to great use as illusionists or other magik types. Some use it for nefarious means as rogue's. The more gregarious Gnomes become bards, using their Fey connection to enhance their stories and songs.
I've often had Gnomes acting as the go between for the Fey and the outside world as they live in both. Most Gnomes live beneath the elven woods - very popular to have a secret door beneath a large tree be the entrance into a Gnome house.
I've never completely understood the campaigns that turned Gnomes into tinker/inventor types, other then somehow tying their Fey connection into powering the devices somehow. But I've never used those settings much.
Pete
I don't know anything about Goths and Emos; if I met two on the street I wouldn't even realize the difference. My guess is that the difference between the two is like the difference between a Baptist and a Jehovah's Witness--the difference is there somewhere, but it only matters to those involved in Christian theology. To the rest of us, Goths and Emos are just bad fashion statements.
Goth kid. Note the use of all black, chains, and pale skin. His hair is cut short and black, which could be seen as standard. However, many goth kids wear they're hair long. However, a lack of styling is key.
Emo kids. Note the heavy use of black, thick rimmed glasses, short dark hair, and tattoo sleeves on the male. Most have some sort of facial peircing, either a labret or an eyebrow peircing. They tend to more stylised fashion choices, with heavy use of hair products and artful applications of eyeliner when appropriate. Most trendy college aged students look like emo kids to some degree, however, to spot a true emo kid one must look to the intensity of the attention mongering.
The two subcultures are very similar, both spawning from the post punk scene in the late 70s and early 80s. From what I can gather, its only with the current emoplosion that it's become harder to tell the difference between the two.
I've thought about this a lot and had to explain the differences to many different people over the past 4 years or so. I used to work in a coffee house/rock club and got to see how emo kids, goth kids, wannabe punks, and adventurous jocks interacted with each other when packed into a hot smokey room and given caffeine. It's quite interesting, really, to see where these kids are now and how they've changed.
The "ideal" gnome figure in literature? Tom Bombadil.
Now he is the "ideal", so he is closer to a gnome deity then a typical gnome, but you definitely get the gnome feeling from him. He is intouch with nature, has a good sense of humour, has some natural magical ability to him, but seems just a bit too flighty to care about the activities of the outside world. Besides which he is a great dresser.
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Gnomes = Fey. Flighty, connected to nature, love to tinker. Think Santa's 'Elves,' without all the singing about wanting to be dentists.
Dwarves = What Vikings turned into. Hard-working, beer-swilling, loud-singing, physically-boisterous people with excessive hair. Only shorter, and rarely seen riding Harleys.
Halflings = Pech, from the movie Willow, which are essentially Hobbits from LotR. Or Kender, but I abjure that version of Halflings.
Here's my take on the topics at hand.
Good example of a gnome character. I believe the gnomes of Mt. Nevermind in Dragonlance would fit the bill of a typical tinker gnome. Jack in the recent Orc King show a sort of anti-gnome gnome who breaks from the norm (and sort of defines it along the way) as fairly interesting villain.
As for the emo/goth issue. Here is my general impression.
Goth is all about being counter-culture. Dark, brooding, mysterious.
Emo is all about being emotional...which for teenagers tends to mean angst, depression, isolation, etc.
The two are, oddly, related, however, and there is some level of overlap.
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In our games the gnomes are one of the most popular races to play. I would rather see halflings out of the PHB than gnomes. They are just misunderstood lol
we play them as light hearted, secretive, creative and unpredictable. They are cousins to the dwarves and the fey. According to maps there are no gnome villages or countries as they are never found. But in fact there exists many villages and countries of gnomes beneath the surface of the humans and near the dwarves. The dwarves have an idea where they are, but that is about it.
Gnome caravans show up seasonally to trade with humans and elves and dwarves. Then they return to places unknown.
They have natural affinity with small animals and enjoy frivolous fun. They are also fascinated by how things work. Everything from clockwork machines, to gunpowder and steam machines to living creatures and nature and magic. They are the DaVinci's and Einstein's of D&D.
If the party has just been routed by the enemy and is sitting nursing their wounds and a fighter says, "If only we could have floated in silently above them without magic we could have caught them by surprise." The next day the gnome has a schematic of some kind of natural looking, oddly dangerous looking, floating contraption that may or may not work. But he is willing to gamble the fighter's life to find out.
Goth - as in nihistic misanthropes who dress all in black - is a fairly old subculture, but it tends to pop up in popular culture around the fin de siecle, or at least it has in last two or three centuries.
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I don't know about emo gnomes, but goth is all about the fun in darkness and death, bands like Bauhaus, Souixie and the Banshees, and My Chemical Romance (though MCR is a little emo).Emo is all about how I'M GOING TO CUT MYSELF, BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY DYING HEART! and bands like Dashboard Confessional (the ultimate emo band).
In my opinion:
Bauhaus is goth. However, Siouxie Sioux and the Banshees are DEFINITELY punk in my book. MCR is what's classified as 'emo-core', though they're rapidly morphing into Queen-ish theatrical glam rock. And yes, Dashboard is definitely emo.
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Goth women are totally hot.Spoken as someone who hasn't seen the ones trying to cash in on that mental image. There's something kind of sad about seeing a 5'2" women who weighs in around 300 pounds trying to do the Goth Allure thing.
That's if you can work through the black smoke billowing from your eye sockets.
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Yes. Hence the party invitation.
I will say goth women can be hot tho.
"I can't talk to goth girls, I just stare and stammer. Like, 'my name is MC Fram... Framma... Damn her if she giggles, damn her double if she laughs, goth girls love it when you double dammit twice fast. Goth girls, goth girls, they're the girls that go to see the nerdcore rapper with the geeked-out flow; at the show you can see the black lace on parade, met a hundred dozen of 'em, but I ain't got laid."
- MC Frontalot|
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I don't know about emo gnomes, but goth is all about the fun in darkness and death, bands like Bauhaus, Souixie and the Banshees, and My Chemical Romance (though MCR is a little emo).Emo is all about how I'M GOING TO CUT MYSELF, BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY DYING HEART! and bands like Dashboard Confessional (the ultimate emo band).
In my opinion:
Bauhaus is goth. However, Siouxie Sioux and the Banshees are DEFINITELY punk in my book. MCR is what's classified as 'emo-core', though they're rapidly morphing into Queen-ish theatrical glam rock. And yes, Dashboard is definitely emo.
Threadjack for the wayback machine!! Siouxsie, (notice the spelling, people?) was definitely more Punk then Goth, but she had her influence as well. Bauhaus, Speciman, The Damned, Joy Division (was going to go to the Chicago show in 80 but they canceled), and to a certain degree early Cure. This was like 80-81-82 when my high school suddenly exploded with black clothes and mascara. Then it went away for awhile and with all things cycles back through. I was *so* amused when my wife loaned her old dog collar to our daughter to wear for a dance a few years ago.
And don't get me started on what kids today call "Punk". Feh. At least my son likes the Ramones and Clash so we have some common ground.
Btw, I have never even heard of an "Emo" other then from his excellent Emo Phillips Live at the Hasty Pudding theatre that I had on cassette. But I don't think that's who you meant. :-)
-Pete
Goth women are totally hot.
No offense to anyone intended, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. I just don't see the appeal.
I've no affinity to any degree with goths or emos, but from my high school experience, the goths I knew were actually some of the most friendly, cheerful people around. It appears to be more of an expression of separation and counter-culture than anything else. I was going to say it was a claim to individuality, but identity is a better term, since there are so many repetitious and stereotypical elements of goths that individuality just doesn't apply.
I've never actually met any "emo" people, but I get the impression that they're the whiney, bad-attitude versions of the goths, the types of people you'd expect to look as goths do look (not trying to offend, just stating my observation as colored through my opinions). Also from my experience in high school, most of the goths I knew seemed to think of emos as stupid/silly/boring/wanna-be.
Wow, I didn't know I had that much to say on this subject!
The more you know...
Gnomes...while they might appear at first glance to be similar to hobbits, burrowing small humanoids, there are plenty of differences.
PHB description might differ from what I am about to tell you, in case of conflict I am right and PHB is wrong.
One of the driving forces of gnomes is curiosity. They are not as ADD as kenders while still sharing some characteristics, they are creatures of change and thus much more fey-like than dwarves (while dwarves build halls of stone, gnomes burrow in softer ground and surround themselves with forests and such).
Gnomes do not like to make long-term commitments, be it for home, community, family or interest. Gnomes usually live in small communities where everyone knows everyone, but are also likely to move to different communities (where they quickly come to know everyone). Gnome marriages typically last only some years and what typical gnome considers as "family" is a large group of people some of which she shares biological bond and many which she does not.
Being a gnome is all about being a member of intricate, constantly changing social network which has no permanent hierarchy.
Minding other people's business is societal norm: everybody does it and everybody is expected to do it; that's how gnomes new to the community are quickly integrated...everybody just goes and finds out everything there is to know about the new gnome and probably soon arranges a new marriage match or business deal or similar to the newcomer (not to mention that the newcomer is bound to meet a cousin of a second husband of her grandmother).
However, it is also societal norm to lie, mislead and fool others on those subjects you do not want to become common gossip, and again everyone does it and are expected to do it. It's a matter of prestige to be mysterious and to know more about others than they know about you.
Gnomes are usually not particularly fond of agriculture: they do some of it but nobody tends the same fields all their lives. Hunting and gathering and trade of crafts are more common sources of livelihood. Gnomes appreciate most more elaborate and fine metalcrafts, like machinery and goldsmithing, and are also skilled tailors. And of course there are plenty of gnomes who peddle information, sages and bards. Gnomes like to move around so they choose livelihoods which allow it.
While dwarves are stuffy, slow and humorless gnomes have enough common ground to get along with them (and they are important trade partners).
Also nomadic halflings are friendly and have enough similarities with gnomes, even while they don't appreciate finer things in life...gnomes are endlessly fascinated by elves (who in many ways are ideals of gnomeness) but difference in cultural norms usually make sure elves try to keep distance from gnomes...humans are also fascinating but weird and often humorless, taking offense on the strangest things, and goblinoids are just rude, stupid and charmless.
Oh, and communities and social networks are constantly being shaken up by gnomish love of fashion. What is good today will probably not be so tomorrow, and keeping up with the changes are a sign of charm and wit, characterstics much appreciated by gnomes.
I cannot think of any great gnome characters in fiction which are actually gnomes, but to get an idea, there are some who think like gnomes...typical good sources are dandyish and somewhat jaded aristocrats: Emma Woodhouse by Jane Austen is a gnome, as is Lord Peter Wimsey by Dorothy Sayers (as are Marquise de Merteuil and Vicomte de Valmont from Liaisons Dangereuses, fo those of you who want to play evil gnomes).
And first goth of D&D world is probably a gnome, as idea of painting your fingernails black and exhaling decadence over a glass of Absinth in an attempt to appear mysterious is definitely something a gnome would do.
...and goths and emos: emo is a newer subculture which afaik springs originally more from hardcore punk scene than gothdom (bands like Fugazi and Sunny Day Real Estate as more an inspiration than Sisters of Mercy or Bauhaus). Though the outer trappings are similar nowadays.
And good rule of thumb for now: more girls than boys are goths and definitely more boys than girls are emo.
I completely forgot to let you in on the secrets of gnomes!
When the Primal Age drew to a close, the titans left the world, leaving it to their children, the giants, as well as their servants, the dwarves who had been born of elemental earth. A third race was also present, created by the titans rather than descended: the gnomes. This race had been vested with great magic; born of no single element, they held power over all of them. Even as the great dwarven and giant kingdoms were rising, the Age of Stone was dominated by the gnomes. They wrenched the tops of mountains into the air, created rivers and oceans where they pleased, and controlled the power of fire. But their power was their doom. More than the dwarves, the gnomes clawed at the earth, reaching down as far as they could to touch the raw elements needed for their magic. The tunneled down, down, farther than mortals were meant to reach, and touched the prison of the Nether Lords, those aberrant creatures we call illithids and ethergaunts and spellweavers and more; imprisoned before the world was made from the Void.
A great devastation swept over the world as the mad void-beings escaped their prison-tombs. The cruelty of the Nether Lords was especially painful for the gnomes, who had first released them and whose great magic drew the monsters like moths to the flame.
The evil of the Nether Lords was so great that the elves left their homes amongst the stars, descending to the mortal world to imprison the hideous creatures once again. But the gnomes had lost their great kingdoms by this time. They had fallen from the halls of power. They became a people without a home, wandering the world. They took refuge with the elves in the forests, and in the caverns of the dwarves. Eventually, they settled with the two races and between them. The gnomes also forswore their elemental magic. They had seen the devastation wrought by tampering with the forces of nature. The small race turned its spellcraft away from the real and into the unreal, the illusionary. They began to question the nature of reality and the world around us all. And they remembered the sorrow of their great loss. But rather than be buried by it, the gnomes learned to laugh. They learned the precious value of joyfulness, of song, and of jokes. And so they became philosopher-comedians, content with a small, quiet, and often overlooked place in the world.
They have seen the rise of the halflings, the drow, the goblins, the fall of the giants, and creation of humans since then. Today, as for thousands of years, gnomes travel the land. They converse philosophically, seeking and spreading knowledge. But moreover, they bring traveling shows with them, filled with fantastic illusions and clever, yet clownish, antics, spreading light and hope through laughter in a dark world.
I don't know about emo gnomes, but goth is all about the fun in darkness and death, bands like Bauhaus, Souixie and the Banshees, and My Chemical Romance (though MCR is a little emo).Emo is all about how I'M GOING TO CUT MYSELF, BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY DYING HEART! and bands like Dashboard Confessional (the ultimate emo band).
In my opinion:
Bauhaus is goth. However, Siouxie Sioux and the Banshees are DEFINITELY punk in my book. MCR is what's classified as 'emo-core', though they're rapidly morphing into Queen-ish theatrical glam rock. And yes, Dashboard is definitely emo.
I'd agree that Bauhaus started the movement with the release of Bela Lugosi's Dead and Siouxie Sioux only ever referred to one of her albums as Gothic not her music in general, That said her material and Joy Division was probably the most influential on the movement as a whole. So those Goth bands that sprang up in London in her wake felt that she was the prototype of what Gothic was. Her sense of fashion had a huge impact on the dress of the movement. So we end up in a slightly odd place where its perfectly arguable that she is not Gothic herself but at the same time she is practically the very definition of the movement.
In a lot of ways I think that its very difficult for any group around for a significant amount of time to be or remain Gothic. The classic Goth movement was pretty much confined to London from 1979-1983 maybe '85 at the latest. This means that there really is only a very small sampling of sound that defines the movement. Classically they played with usually higher notes, the base got used a lot more then usual to make melody and you backed it with keyboards but its a pretty confined space musically. Attmpts like Darkwave to expand the concept beyond this never really caught on hence I have a hard time thinking of any band that could really remain 'Gothic'. You might start there and then begin to branch out as the modern group Abney Park appears to be doing. You might start somewhere else and end up there as the (again modern and independent) group Johnny Hollow seems to have done but I kind of doubt you can long stay there. So its kind of reasonable if we find that Siouxie Sioux started there and then moved on. I wanted to argue that she started somewhere else (probably in punk) and passed through on her way to somewhere else but Scream is too influential to the rise of the Gothic movement to really allow for that.
In the end almost everyone eventually ends up somewhere else. Andrew Eldritch of Sisters of Mercy is possibly an exception but thats essentially because he stopped releasing new material and even here Vision Thing's metal tinge seems to indicate he was progressing to another place and probably would have had he continued to release new material. It seems everyone eventually moves on unless they die or some such.