So my characters got to the Isle last session, and the T-rex on the beach promptly swallowed the rogue/swashbuckler. The question came up: does a rogue get sneak attack when attacking the stomach of a creature to cut his way out? I ruled yes, and the character did alot of damage to my poor dino. I'm not totally sure I ruled correctly.
The rules (in Monster Manual III) state the the AC of a creature's gizzard is 10 + 1/2 natural armor bonus, with no modifiers for size or dexterity.
Now, saying "no modifiers" is not the same thing as "denied it's dex bonus" from a literal standpoint. On the other hand, attacking a creature's gizzard would seem to qualify for hitting a vital spot.
Thoughts?
BTW, the T-rex was a great intro to the IoD. The party was very scared of it, and it took a while to bring down.
Most people rule that rogues can do sneak attack damage while in a creature's gizzard, but the rules for precision damage still apply: Can the rogue sense where the creature's most vital areas are? Does he have light or other abilities that allow him to tell what he's doing?
if the rogue had darkvision, I would allow it (depending upon the crampedness inside the Stomach ). If he had a light source, I would at the very least check if he held onto it (slippery business and lots of other stuff in the stomach, I suppose) ----> shadowy illumination or no illumination at all = Concealment/fighting blind = no possibly sneak damage. Good Luck
Yes, this means Rogues are usually buggered if they get swallowed
Although they might have the advantage of usually having a small slashing weapon at hand (many fighters do not), because since they are effectively still grappled (in an by the stomach's muscles ), they can't use anything besides..... being tossed about without any means of orientation by the beasts movements.... so do they really have the time and opportunity to pick a "vital" spot ? And actually pick the proper side of the stomach to gut themself out to safety - and not up further into the beast ?
Lets be serious - people who get gulped down _are_ in a quandary, it shouldn't be easy to escape
Yeah, they definitely need a light weapon out. This rogue is also a swashbuckler who is a two-weapon fighter with a rapier and a cutlass, so he can use his cutlass.
I think it comes down to the light source issue. Without one, no sneak attack. With one, you qualify.
Thanks for the input, guys!
You could argue that since you are "inside" the creature the entire area is considered "vital". I imagine stabbing someone from the inside out would hurt more than from the outside in. At the very least you shouldn't have to worry about any natural armor bonuses.
Definitely a good point, Ronin. Ruling against sneak attack really screws a swallowed rogue, while ruling in favor of it lets the rogue do beaucoup damage to the creature that swallowed him.
You do have to worry about natural armor bonuses, to an extent. A creature's "gizzard AC" is 10+ 1/2 natural armor, without modifying for Dex or Size. I would still give it any Deflection bonus it might have, though.
shadowy illumination or no illumination at all = Concealment/fighting blind = no possibly sneak damage.
This is one of the worst bugs in 3-5 in my opinions. Rogues have to avoid dark alleys in order to get sneak attacks?
shadowy illumination or no illumination at all = Concealment/fighting blind = no possibly sneak damage.This is one of the worst bugs in 3-5 in my opinions. Rogues have to avoid dark alleys in order to get sneak attacks?
obviously only dwarves , elves and gnomes are meant to be successful muggers... Half orcs and half elves too. Can't be helped *wicked grin*
I for one have concealment from shadowy lighting only occur at distances beyond 30', but that is as "house rules" as they come. I mean, you couldn't sneak attack someone clearly shadowed through a rice-paper wall. Someone please explain that top the ninja, hehe
if the rogue had darkvision, I would allow it (depending upon the crampedness inside the Stomach ). If he had a light source, I would at the very least check if he held onto it (slippery business and lots of other stuff in the stomach, I suppose) ----> shadowy illumination or no illumination at all = Concealment/fighting blind = no possibly sneak damage. Good Luck
Yes, this means Rogues are usually buggered if they get swallowed
Although they might have the advantage of usually having a small slashing weapon at hand (many fighters do not), because since they are effectively still grappled (in an by the stomach's muscles ), they can't use anything besides..... being tossed about without any means of orientation by the beasts movements.... so do they really have the time and opportunity to pick a "vital" spot ? And actually pick the proper side of the stomach to gut themself out to safety - and not up further into the beast ?
Lets be serious - people who get gulped down _are_ in a quandary, it shouldn't be easy to escape
I wrote a long reply to this and it got swallowed up by the Boardosaurus Rex. I guess I will have to be speedier.
The light issue in my mind is a poor argument, like the FAQ writer couldn't come up with a good excuse to prevent sneak attacks. The only thing that makes sense to me is to use grappling rules for this type of scenario. The physiology of the beast means the swallowed PC doesnt have a lot of room to work with. They also can't see the internal organs, not because of no light, but because they are inside an organ already!
If any of my players get gulped down when they meet the T-Rex soon, they will be using grappling rules and will be unable to sneak attack
Cheers!
does a rogue get sneak attack when attacking the stomach of a creature to cut his way out?From the [u]3.5 FAQ[/u] (if desired):
"Can a rogue who has been swallowed whole by a
monster use sneak attack against it? And does this damage
apply to the monster’s normal hit points?
Yes and yes, though that first yes has a qualification
attached. Since a creature that has used swallow whole to gulp
down a foe is effectively denied its Dexterity bonus to AC, it’s
potentially vulnerable to a sneak attack. (Intuitively speaking,
this makes pretty good sense. It’s hard to imagine a better place
to attack a monster’s vulnerable parts than from inside the
monster itself.)
However, keep in mind that the inside of a stomach is almost
certainly pitch-black, and therefore the critter has total
concealment against attacks. The rules indicate that a rogue
can’t use sneak attack against a creature with concealment, so
unless she’s packing a light source in there she’s probably out
of luck vis-à-vis sneak attack. (The Sage imagines that most
DMs ignore the 50% miss chance in such situations, which
seems like a reasonable house rule.)
Damage done to a creature to cut your way out is applied to
its hit points as normal."
Nope, sorry. Not buying it. Whoever wrote this was being lazy. A rogue's sneak attack ability is defined (roughly) as the ability to wait for the right opening in combat such that a vital area can be hit, or the ability to pinpoint such a vital area while the target is distracted. In this situation the target is neither distracted nor (technically) in combat with the rogue. And while it's true that a creature is probably most vulnerable from within, all those vulnerabilities are figured into the stats already. This was just sloppy work and I'm surprised it made it into the FAQ.
While I'm aware that an argument could be made vis a vis the target creature not receiving its Dex bonus, this is yet another instance in which the DM must interpret the spirit of the rules rather than the letter.
Or to put it another way, there's no way you can convince me that your rogue has been swallowed enough times that he's been able to practice the best way to attack creatures from inside. Besides which, I seriously doubt he has even a single rank in Knowledge (monster anatomy).
If any of my players get gulped down when they meet the T-Rex soon, they will be using grappling rules and will be unable to sneak attack
Cheers!
Anyone that gets swallowed won't even be able to cut their way out unless they have a light weapon in hand when they are gulped down. IIRC you can only attack with a light weapon in a grapple and can only draw a weapon with a successful grapple check.
It's been a while since my group fought the T Rex but I seem to remember his grapple check being around a +36 or +37. Anyone in my group at that level would have struggled to even make a check of 37 let alone beat the check of the T Rex.
The party tank got swallowed and was basically stuck inside the creature until the rest of the party killed it. Luckily he had a good amount of hit points- he basically got swallowed approaching the T Rex by the AoO it got from reach. If this would have happened to the rogue (or almost any other PC in our group) they would have died inside the T Rex.
I could see the sneak attack debate going either way honestly. I'd be a little hesitant about using the grappling angle though since it would likely kill a character. On the other hand, it would make for a fine welcome to the Isle of Dread!
Anyone that gets swallowed won't even be able to cut their way out unless they have a light weapon in hand when they are gulped down. IIRC you can only attack with a light weapon in a grapple and can only draw a weapon with a successful grapple check.
It's been a while since my group fought the T Rex but I seem to remember his grapple check being around a +36 or +37. Anyone in my group at that level would have struggled to even make a check of 37 let alone beat the check of the T Rex.
The party tank got swallowed and was basically stuck inside the creature until the rest of the party killed it. Luckily he had a good amount of hit points- he basically got swallowed approaching the T Rex by the AoO it got from reach. If this would have happened to the rogue (or almost any other PC in our group) they would have died inside the T Rex.
I could see the sneak attack debate going either way honestly. I'd be a little hesitant about using the grappling angle though since it would likely kill a character. On the other hand, it would make for a fine welcome to the Isle of Dread!
In either case, the swallowed pc must use a light weapon (I would also rule must be capable of dealing slashing damage) to cut themselves out of their dilema. The grapple rules also allow grapplers to draw a light weapon as a move equiv action and to attack their grappler with a light weapon with a -4 penalty, no check needed. I don't see a problem here, using the grappling rules only serve to hamper the swallowed, not immobilize them.
As far as the High grapple check (+30 in the case of the standard T-Rex) I am not totally without compassion or sense. Grapple is BAB + Str mod + Size Mod and it could be argued particularly in this case that the rex's strength is in its jaws so I would consider reducing the Grapple check modifier by 9 to make it a more reasonable +21. Alternatively, you could treat the Grapple modifier as a static DC to 'save' against, either the 30 or 21 depending on your style. Rogues should probably have spent some ranks on Escape Artist, to make grapple checks easier to beat. All this would do in the context of being swallowed would be to alleviate the -4 attack penalty.
Back to the Sneak Attack damage. Since the PC is in some creatures digestive tract I would say, light source or not, the critter has concealment which negates sneak attacks. Also, flanking would seem difficult and there is no reason to say that the rex would lose its Dex bonus with regard to the swallowed character.
After having written this, I am looking forward to watch a few PC's get gulped down.
Cheers!
Nope, sorry. Not buying it. Whoever wrote this was being lazy. A rogue's sneak attack ability is defined (roughly) as the ability to wait for the right opening in combat such that a vital area can be hit, or the ability to pinpoint such a vital area while the target is distracted. In this situation the target is neither distracted nor (technically) in combat with the rogue. And while it's true that a creature is probably most vulnerable from within, all those vulnerabilities are figured into the stats already. This was just sloppy work and I'm surprised it made it into the FAQ.
Thanks bubbagump, this expresses exactly my take on this part of the FAQ. Sloppy, lazy work.
I said as much in the post I made earlier, the one that got swallowed by the board.
Cheers!
I wrote a long reply to this and it got swallowed up by the Boardosaurus Rex. I guess I will have to be speedier.
The light issue in my mind is a poor argument, like the FAQ writer couldn't come up with a good excuse to prevent sneak attacks. The only thing that makes sense to me is to use grappling rules for this type of scenario. The physiology of the beast means the swallowed PC doesnt have a lot of room to work with. They also can't see the internal organs, not because of no light, but because they are inside an organ already!
If any of my players get gulped down when they meet the T-Rex soon, they will be using grappling rules and will be unable to sneak attack
Cheers!
They are inside an internal organ—which seems to open up the possibility of sneak attack. If delivering a direct hit to a vital organ qualifies you for sneak attack then gutting that organ from the inside out seems like it should as well. Just because you don’t have much room to work with doesn’t mean you can’t get sneak attack—that issue is already taken care of by the light weapon restriction. I agree with you about using the grapple rules, but there’s nothing that says you can’t ever get grapple in a sneak attack. I know that grappled targets are not denied their AC to each other, but if the target was denied it for some other reason, it’s grappling opponent could sneak attack it with a light weapon.
Since the PC is in some creatures digestive tract I would say, light source or not, the critter has concealment which negates sneak attacks.
Why would the creature have concealment, light source or not? If the PC has the ability to see then he what else is providing concealment? All the goup and digestive fluids? I don’t think those would necessarily give concealment.
Also, flanking would seem difficult and there is no reason to say that the rex would lose its Dex bonus with regard to the swallowed character.
The rules on Swallow Whole in the MM state that the AC of a creature's stomach does not figure in dex bonus.
Nope, sorry. Not buying it. Whoever wrote this was being lazy. A rogue's sneak attack ability is defined (roughly) as the ability to wait for the right opening in combat such that a vital area can be hit, or the ability to pinpoint such a vital area while the target is distracted. In this situation the target is neither distracted nor (technically) in combat with the rogue. And while it's true that a creature is probably most vulnerable from within, all those vulnerabilities are figured into the stats already. This was just sloppy work and I'm surprised it made it into the FAQ.While I'm aware that an argument could be made vis a vis the target creature not receiving its Dex bonus, this is yet another instance in which the DM must interpret the spirit of the rules rather than the letter.
Or to put it another way, there's no way you can convince me that your rogue has been swallowed enough times that he's been able to practice the best way to attack creatures from inside. Besides which, I seriously doubt he has even a single rank in Knowledge (monster anatomy).
Attacking a vital spot—like the inside of the stomach. I would also argue that the target is distracted—once he’s swallowed a meal he’s not even thinking about it anymore—he’s trying to get the next meal. They're definitely in combat with each other--the T-rex is doing damage, the rogue can attack or make grapple checks, if they're not in combat with each other than no one is. I don’t really think the question of whether the rogue has had enough time to practice is an issue. Characters are assumed to be able to adapt to new situations. If a rogue is attacking something with an unusual anatomy but that otherwise qualifies for sneak attack, would you tell the rogue he doesn’t get it? I wouldn’t.
Yeah, so anyway, about that "spirit of the rules" thing...
I'm sorry, I just don't see how giving sneak attack (assuming a light source is available--a pretty big assumption) violates the spirit of the rules. I think carving up the inside of a creatures digestive track is a pretty good definition of hitting a vital spot.
I think carving up the inside of a creatures digestive track is a pretty good definition of hitting a vital spot.
On the other hand, carving up the vitals might just not get you out. Most real critters have stomachs next to the abdominal wall (it's nice when a full meal distends your belly outward, rather than squeezing in and restricting the freedom of your lungs to expand); likewise most critters keep the really vital stuff further in. So it might not be unreasonable to say that you can turn your blade inwards towards the big thumping bits and do sneak attack damage or you can head for the abdominal wall and try to cut your way out.
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I think the 'concealment for darkness' argument is a red herring.
It applies during normal fights, since two combatants in adjacent 5' squares are constantly moving around and thus, at any given time, could be anywhere from zero feet away to ten feet. That doesn't apply to a swallowed character, who knows exactly where his opponent is, since he is touching them.
Whether one has a light source (or darkvision) is also irrelevant, since you'll probably have your eyes shut, or you'll have them full of acidic goop, neither of which is conducive to pinpoint accuracy.
The acid test is to consider a creature who doesn't rely on sight at all, like a grimlock rogue? As it stands, using the concealment argument, he'd have free reign to wreak havok. Ask yourself if you can forsee any circumstances in which such a combatant could be foiled.
It would probably be fair to have a miss chance (or possibly, to roll 50/50 between a normal hit/sneak attack), but this would be completely unrelated to vision, being instead, due to the disorientation of being buffetted around, and the difficulty of wielding one's weapon. There's a difference between being able to wiggle a dagger a few inches, and being able to aim at a specific spot and plunge it in. I see rogues as favouring a very mobile combat style, relying on ducking, weaving and dodging, to deliver their blows where they want. Immobilise the rogue, and you could argue they have no more right to inflict sneak attacks than anyone else.
How about a Concentration check to keep one's wits while taking continuous damage? Pass the check, sneak attack. Fail the check, normal attack.
How about a Concentration check to keep one's wits while taking continuous damage? Pass the check, sneak attack. Fail the check, normal attack.
Not a bad idea, but since only spellcasters add ranks to Concentration, it will leave the ones most likely to get gulped with less chance to operate successfully. So I don't think thats the solution I am looking for.
I'm sorry, I just don't see how giving sneak attack (assuming a light source is available--a pretty big assumption) violates the spirit of the rules. I think carving up the inside of a creatures digestive track is a pretty good definition of hitting a vital spot.
Sorry for the confusion, but what I am referring to as 'vital' organs are the heart, lungs, spleen, brain, things like that and those are concealed from the pc by the walls of the gizzard that they are trying to escape from. I may have confused the game mechanic terminology, I always confuse concealement and cover. All damaging the gizzard will get you is out of the beast (a good thing, no doubt).
In the T-Rex description (from the SRD), "A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 12). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out." Doesn't sound like a vital organ to me.
I know that grappled targets are not denied their AC to each other, but if the target was denied it for some other reason, it’s grappling opponent could sneak attack it with a light weapon.
ok, if someone can work out a way to deny the Rex his Dex to AC, I would consider revising this. Flanking is essentually impossible because the swallowed character can't see the flanker. Flanking requires interacting with an ally, which isn't happening from a Rex's gizzard
The rules on Swallow Whole in the MM state that the AC of a creature's stomach does not figure in dex bonus.
Ok, but that in no way indicates that the creature is denied its Dex bonus to AC for the purpose of sneak attacks. That section also states that the swallowed creature is considered grappled while the swallowing creature is not.
Cheers!
In either case, the swallowed pc must use a light weapon (I would also rule must be capable of dealing slashing damage) to cut themselves out of their dilema. The grapple rules also allow grapplers to draw a light weapon as a move equiv action and to attack their grappler with a light weapon with a -4 penalty, no check needed. I don't see a problem here, using the grappling rules only serve to hamper the swallowed, not immobilize them.
As far as the High grapple check (+30 in the case of the standard T-Rex) I am not totally without compassion or sense. Grapple is BAB + Str mod + Size Mod and it could be argued particularly in this case that the rex's strength is in its jaws so I would consider reducing the Grapple check modifier by 9 to make it a more reasonable +21. Alternatively, you could treat the Grapple modifier as a static DC to 'save' against, either the 30 or 21 depending on your style....
According to the PHB you can draw a light weapon while grappled as a move action with a successful grapple check. I did get my T rexes confused however, I was thinking about the legendary one at the tar pits. Still a +30 is no joke at the level the party will be at when they hit the Isle of Dread.
I wouldn’t change the grapple check; instead I’d swallow an NPC first. Then you could only swallow one other PC because the T rex can only swallow two medium creatures before it is full. Imagine the shock when it swallows an NPC, then again as it swallows a PC, and then again when the T rex runs off with a PC in it’s belly! The race would be on to stop it from leaving so they could save their friends.
Do you think the 25 points of damage has to be done with one attack? That sounds rough but if the “muscular action” closes the hole once a medium size creature gets out why wouldn’t it close a smaller hole each round? Just thinking out loud here..
Bottom line- anyone that gets swallowed isn’t getting out for a couple of rounds at least. You need to account for that or you could lose a character.
So much rules lawyering! Must we forget that the rules exist merely as a framework for determining believable outcomes for a character's actions?
Let us remember that we're talking about attacking a creature from inside it's stomach! How can you think that a puny rogue - however sneaky he might be - is ever going to cause more damage than the burly fighter with his superior strength and expertise at slicing enemies?
In either case, the swallowed pc must use a light weapon (I would also rule must be capable of dealing slashing damage) to cut themselves out of their dilema. The grapple rules also allow grapplers to draw a light weapon as a move equiv action and to attack their grappler with a light weapon with a -4 penalty, no check needed. I don't see a problem here, using the grappling rules only serve to hamper the swallowed, not immobilize them.
As far as the High grapple check (+30 in the case of the standard T-Rex) I am not totally without compassion or sense. Grapple is BAB + Str mod + Size Mod and it could be argued particularly in this case that the rex's strength is in its jaws so I would consider reducing the Grapple check modifier by 9 to make it a more reasonable +21. Alternatively, you could treat the Grapple modifier as a static DC to 'save' against, either the 30 or 21 depending on your style....
According to the PHB you can draw a light weapon while grappled as a move action with a successful grapple check. I did get my T rexes confused however, I was thinking about the legendary one at the tar pits. Still a +30 is no joke at the level the party will be at when they hit the Isle of Dread.
Yep, that's what I wrote (and you quoted above). I haven't gotten to the Rex at the pits yet, so I dunno what his grapple check will be. that'll be one tuff beastie.
I wouldn’t change the grapple check; instead I’d swallow an NPC first. Then you could only swallow one other PC because the T rex can only swallow two medium creatures before it is full. Imagine the shock when it swallows an NPC, then again as it swallows a PC, and then again when the T rex runs off with a PC in it’s belly! The race would be on to stop it from leaving so they could save their friends.
I agree, that will give them a scare. :) they got a shock when they fought the Hydra too, they really weren't expecting all the heads to get attacks even after a move. hehe. up til then, they weren't getting hit much. they got hit big. the Rex is nearly a cant miss beast too.
Do you think the 25 points of damage has to be done with one attack? That sounds rough but if the “muscular action” closes the hole once a medium size creature gets out why wouldn’t it close a smaller hole each round? Just thinking out loud here..Bottom line- anyone that gets swallowed isn’t getting out for a couple of rounds at least. You need to account for that or you could lose a...
Oh no, I believe the intent is to have them do a TOTAL of 25 damage to the gizzard to escape. not many PCs can generate that much damage in one round. It won't close a smaller hole each round because the cutter is actively forcing the hole to remain open. In your scenario above, with two bodies in the gizzard, I would probably allow both to escape thru the same hole.
2d8+8 bludgeoning and 8 acid damage per round in the gizzard averages 25 damage per round. 2-3 rounds will definitely be the end to most characters that get swallowed.Cheers!
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ok, if someone can work out a way to deny the Rex his Dex to AC, I would consider revising this. Flanking is essentually impossible because the swallowed character can't see the flanker. Flanking requires interacting with an ally, which isn't happening from a Rex's gizzard
As people said, spirit of the rules. Flanking bonus is based on splitting a opponent's attention between 2 opponents, right? So have you ever had a stomach ache so bad that it distracted you from work? multiply that by 10 or 20 and thats how distracted having something live trying to stab you from the inside will do. Plus how is dex bonus (moving away from the threat) going to work you can't move away from your stomach unless you're a sea star that throws up it's stomach to digest food?