Okay so this is my first post, my friend loves these chats so I figured I would give it a try.
I should start by saying I'm slightly against multiclassing (this being the main reason I want to try it). I only have one other character: Xiloscient (Lvl 19, so to be 20, High Eldarin Ranger). I've been playing for about 3 years and I've had one "multiclasser" in my playing group and none in the group I DM. The player who multicalssed is a 8th lvl fighter and a 11th level wizard and he does not contribute much to the group (this could be why I'm against multiclassing). In any sort the character in need of help is my rouge. I started as a rouge and took my second level in fighting, I hope that wasn't a mistake but I did it for the hit points and the bonus feat. I'm thinking about heading back to rouge at lvl 3 but am not sure how wise that will be for future building.
So I want the character to be sneaky assasin type but can hold his own in a fight. But mainly I want it to be fun and let me know the benefits of multiclassing. I have access to a good amount of books so throw any ideas you can at me. . .please please help!!!!!
Welcome to the boards Xiloscient.
Come on FH. There's a ROUGE here needs some help.
Emergency! Calling Fake Healer!
You are needed urgently your Fakeyness.
On a more serious note, welcome to the boards Xilo (you will learn in time the FH inside joke with regards to Rouges lol).
I personally like the fighter rogue multiclass build. My advice is go one more level fighter (for one more feat) and then switch back to rogue for a few. Take feats that maximize your teamwork mellee (read sneak attack heaven from flanking etc...), or go for a ranged weapon build (those extra fighter feats will come in handy!). Whatever you decide, enjoy. And to adress your point about your friend not contributing much, a multiclass WILL obviously be inferior in any one aspect to a pure class, but's the versatility that you get in return to the power tradeoff (not to mention the very cool character concepts possible when you multiclass).
Be safe.
Yes, there are people here who would like to point out that rouge is the cosmetic product, rogue is the character class...
What multiclassing options one should choose depends on what your image of the character is and also what role does he fulfill in the group. For mechanistic purposes, having second level of fighter is a good idea at some point for that extra feat but if you should take it now or later...if you and the group needs the skills, go for rogue and take the fighter level later, if you need hitpoints and combat ability take the second level of fighter and after that go back to rogue.
Multiclassing requires some consideration, especially for spellcasters as for them slower spell progression really limits the power, but having couple of levels of other class is often a good idea, you get some interesting extra goodies and can address weaknesses of your main class while your main class progresses still well enough. Two levels of fighter is popular choice for those two feats, hit points, attack bonus and proficiencies for martial weapons and armor...barbarian and ranger are possibilities too. Having a level or two of rogue or bard gets better skills and sneak attack (for rogues) or some basic spells and songs (bards). Both monks and paladins get a bunch of potentially useful abilities on low levels...and so on.
And multiclassing brings flavor to the character. And are required for some of the prestige classes.
I love multiclassing, except when playing wizards (because of the loss of highest-level spells compared with single-class ones of the same character level). The thing is, you need to be careful with it, as Magdalena pointed out. Some specific examples: A fighter 8/wizard 11 has only 5th level spells instead of 9th, and has MANY fewer hp and combat feats (and one less attack) than a 19th level fighter... it's a bad deal on both ends. A fighter 1/wizard 18, on the other hand, would have a 9th level spell, and at low levels would still have been able to fight respectably well. A fighter 1/wizard 8/eldritch knight 10 would be better (9th level spell and BAB +15).
For rogues, fighter/rogue is pretty good if you want to be able to fight, and still have enough skill points to be useful outside of combat. As pointed out, you might want to start with Rogue at 1st level to get all those gobs of skill points, then take 1-2 levels of fighter to keep you alive, and then switch back to rogue. The only real drawback with this is that your Search and Disable Device will be 2 levels below par (most adventures seem to be written assuming that a single-classed rogue in the party has maxed them out).
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The False One has arrived to smite the infidel! Rouge is a color, or a type of make-up. ROGUE is a core class that is stealthy. Now that that is out of the way....
You are a rogue first and foremost. by multiclassing you reduce your effectiveness at being a rogue. If you keep dipping you will slightly raise your combat skill while seriously hampering your ability to deal with your rogue duties. Your friend made his PC into a character that can't fight or cast spells of any effectiveness. If you are gonna multiclass, have a clear path, like Arcane Trickster PRC (rogue/wizard), or play a class that mixes the 2 at the start. Maybe a Scout or a Swashbuckler or something. Your friend could have went with a fighter/wizard mix and got into the Eldritch Knight PRC which would have increased BAB and Caster level each level with only a level or 2 of fighter. He would be a much better caster and have a higher base attack then he has now. You need to figure out what role in the party you wish to pursue and find the path that gets you there with the least amount of damage to your effectiveness.
Your PC loses effectiveness by wearing heavier armor but without heavier armor you are more vulnerable in battle.
Your PC has a d6 hit die from being a rogue, if you dip too much into fighter to get the extra HP you are nerfing your rogue skills.
I would actually suggest taking sorcerer levels or something and trying to go Arcane Trickster. Then you could buff yourself, cast Invis on yourself and sneak attack with Ray spells.
Or max out your Use Magic Device skill and get a wand that does touch attacks/ ranged touch attacks. Much easier to get off a sneak attack with a touch attack(ranged or otherwise).
FH
well, go to the store and have someone analyze your facial tones and bone structure; then choose colors to coordinate your favoring colors with your wardrobe.
oh; or did you mean rogue?
hehe their is a whole thread on this; am trying to lightheartedly save you from a whole lot of thunder from some peeps that are hot; really hot on this issue. ***wince***; hide now; hide as FH isnt the only one :)
hehe their is a whole thread on this; am trying to lightheartedly save you from a whole lot of thunder from some peeps that are hot; really hot on this issue. ***wince***; hide now; hide as FH isnt the only one :)
Fakey, I'll let you deal with the "there" vs. "their," given your effectiveness on the Rouge issue. Valegrim, I assume you did that on purpose.
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hehe their is a whole thread on this; am trying to lightheartedly save you from a whole lot of thunder from some peeps that are hot; really hot on this issue. ***wince***; hide now; hide as FH isnt the only one :)Fakey, I'll let you deal with the "there" vs. "their," given your effectiveness on the Rouge issue. Valegrim, I assume you did that on purpose.
Valegrim has an english degree or something so I would guess it was a joke.
On Topic: for the record.
I wasn't saying that a Fighter/Rogue mix isn't effective, just that it is less effective as a fighter than a fighter and less effective as a rogue than a rogue. If your party needs a full-fledged trapmeister alot then you need to stay the rogue course. If your party doesn't encounter alot of disable device, search, and sneaking, and has a prolific amount of stand-up combats, then by all means become more effective as a melee rogue by adding fighter levels into the mix.
FH
Another thing to consider, and this gets even more meta-gamey, but can be important for your overall fun. Does your DM use published adventures, or write his own? If he uses published, they assume that the party is kind of stereotypical arcanist/divine caster/stealth master/strong warrior, and that each person is "maxed" in his respective class. If you will be doing a lot of such adventuring, reducing your rogue abilities isn't such a good idea.
HOWEVER, it really comes down to this: How responsive is your DM to your character? How much does he take it into consideration that you have abilities A, B, and C, and not X, Y, and Z? The DM can change all the Disable Device and Search checks needed in an adventure with a wave of his magic hand. Afterall, the point is to get past these things and have fun, with a moderate chance of failure to enhance said fun. So, simply applying a -2 or so to the DCs achieves the same play balance as leaving them the same and pitting them against a full-classed stealth character.
Also, if the DM isn't responsive, it doesn't matter whether or not he uses published adventures, since he would then be no more likely to design an appropriate adventure on his own.
So, hopefully you have a responsive DM who will work with you to make this character a success. If such is the case, go for it. You will loose just a tad of your rogue-y-ness, but the fighter benefits are nice and synch well. Also, no one said you have to wear full plate just because you have fighter levels. Just stick with a mithril chain shirt, and your Armor Check will remain 0.
Now, the converse side of this is that if your DM isn't responsive, you may want to go for it anyway, since there's no guarantee that sticking to pure rogue is going benefit you. A non-responsive DM will just throw out whatever adventures and challenges pop into his mind with little consideration for the player's abilities. In this case, you're more likely to "feel" the loss of your rogue abilities when he throws out a challenge that conforms to the Standard Party assumption, but then again, you have no assurance he's going to use the Standard Party assumption at all.
In the end, go with whatever seems the most fun and provides the coolest character. I haven't said anything rules-specific or provided that type of analysis because everyone else seems to have already covered that.
I will just say this: What was the fighter/mage thinking?! Not taking levels in Eldritch Knight or its equivalent? Sure, he seems to have gotten through well enough so that he now has access to things like disintigrate, but overall, it was a bad, bad choice. He could have just taken Duskblade, if you have the PHB2.
Indeed, building a respectable warrior/mage is possible in the rules only by taking prestige class like Eldrich Knight. Otherwise nothing good is expected. The pure spellcasters are the tricky ones with their demands for high-level spells and low hit points, while combinations of fighter, barbarian, rogue, ranger, paladin, monk or even bard can do something with practically any level combination (some of them are better than others, though, and having more than two classes requires again more careful planning).
Of course assuming that DM responds to non-typical characters, as Saern mentioned above.
Well I like Rogue/Fighter when I have certain builds in mind. A ranged rogue does well with all the extra feats from fighter. If you want weapon specialization there fighter is nice. If you trying to go down a long feat path like Spring Attack then the fighter feats help. Otherwise if I don't want those things I would prefer rogue/swashbuckler. It get the the BaB and hit points of the fighter, but have more synergy in my mind. It focuses on mobility in combat which means tumbling to flank for sneak attacks and being able to move where needed unhindered. I don't know it just feels better to me.
Rogue/Ninja is an interesting combination, Rogue/Warlock can be pretty effective if played properly. If you want the extra fighter feats I would suggest taking two levels in fighter. Rogue/Ranger is good if you choose archery as your combat style. If you're Rogue is Lawful than a Rogue/Monk is good due to things like fast movement and a few bonus feats.
Rogue/Beguiler can be effective because most of the spells on the beguiler's list are especially useful for a Rogue. Rogue/Sorcerer/Arcane Trickster can be good as can Rogue/Shadowdancer or Rogue/Duelist.
A notation on the Rogue/Warlock; I'm not sure that this is legal but if you could get a sneak attack coupled with the Warlock's Eldritch Blast it could deal massive amounts of damage.
A notation on the Rogue/Warlock; I'm not sure that this is legal but if you could get a sneak attack coupled with the Warlock's Eldritch Blast it could deal massive amounts of damage.
It seems within the rules to me. You would have to be within 30ft and the foe would have to be flat-footed. If you want to be able to do it by flanking, you would need hideous blow so that it can be done in melee. It would be interesting at higher levels since you need to decide between multiple sneak attacks or just one with eldrich blast.
hehe you guys caught me with the hand in the proverbial cookie jar; was wondering if anyone would as I smirked to myself; hehe good job guys.
oh; by the by; a ww error, wrong word, is one of the most difficult errors to find as to most spell checkers it is correct; only during some grammar analysis is this found; a real person can catch these errors, but it takes a reread or and edit read which most people do not do, especially in informal writing.
Hey FH, I think I forgot one important piece of info. . .my rouge is on a solo mission, so I don't have a group to be effective for, just myslef : (. But I do like the arcane trickster route, I've just heard so negatvie things about it, I was thinking about it though. So with that being said, I think I'm going to start on the track to arcane trickster with a socerer level next.
If you have anymore advice PLEASE share!!!!
Thanks for your help
Nothing
Were you planning on saying something there?
Well I like Rogue/Fighter when I have certain builds in mind. A ranged rogue does well with all the extra feats from fighter. If you want weapon specialization there fighter is nice. If you trying to go down a long feat path like Spring Attack then the fighter feats help. Otherwise if I don't want those things I would prefer rogue/swashbuckler. It get the the BaB and hit points of the fighter, but have more synergy in my mind. It focuses on mobility in combat which means tumbling to flank for sneak attacks and being able to move where needed unhindered. I don't know it just feels better to me.
Currently, my favorite character is a rogue/swashbuckler. Great stuff, there, but he doesn't spend a lot of time in prepublished dungeons. A responsive DM is a must.
Hey everyone thanks so much for you help. . .like I said to FH this is a solo mission. . .so if you recommendations change please let me know! Thanks again everyone!
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Hey everyone thanks so much for you help. . .like I said to FH this is a solo mission. . .so if you recommendations change please let me know! Thanks again everyone!
If your DM will allow it, go with the Divine Trickster for a prestige class, basically same thing as an Arcane Trickster but with a cleric/rogue instead. You would be able to do the stealth thing, heal yourself, and gain access to alot of good buff spells.
*really read the whole class before you make a decision, I think it is perfect for your sitch*FH
Indeed, building a respectable warrior/mage is possible in the rules only by taking prestige class like Eldrich Knight. Otherwise nothing good is expected. The pure spellcasters are the tricky ones with their demands for high-level spells and low hit points, while combinations of fighter, barbarian, rogue, ranger, paladin, monk or even bard can do something with practically any level combination (some of them are better than others, though, and having more than two classes requires again more careful planning).
3.5 in general just demands that either 1) you stay in the same character class for all 20 levels or 2) have a definite plan on how you want the character to advance. Even with something as simple as barbarian 16/fighter 4, figuring out when you want to take the fighter levels can be tricky. One thing that you don't want to do is greatly weaken your ability to fill your primary role by trying to fill too many other roles. Pick one (or at most two) roles to focus on: arcane caster, divine caster, locks/traps, melee combatant, NPC interaction, and ranged combatant.
The fighter/wizard in the original post is pretty sub-optimal. The best warrior/mage progression I've come up with is wizard 6/fighter 1/spellsword (CW) 1/eldritch knight 8/archmage 4, and even that works better as an arcane caster/ranged combatant than as any sort of melee type.
For a combat rogue, the best choice would probably be to take the nightsong enforcer PrC from Complete Adventurer or the invisible blade PrC from Complete Warrior.
As the DM I would like to say (to help my player with ideas and ideas from you guys) that there is going to be action, sneaky things that kill at night, and undead, cults, murder, blackmail, and things I couldnt say as to not give it away all over the place so this character could do many a thing and like I said before Xilo you can be anything from any book as long as I ok it. Do you think I should write Xlio story on the boards here?
As the DM I would like to say (to help my player with ideas and ideas from you guys) that there is going to be action, sneaky things that kill at night, and undead, cults, murder, blackmail, and things I couldnt say as to not give it away all over the place so this character could do many a thing and like I said before Xilo you can be anything from any book as long as I ok it. Do you think I should write Xlio story on the boards here?
Hey friend, I think I'm going to go with Divine Trickster. . .but with no diety just devoting myself to a cause. My domain is going to be Luck for one, I'm not 100% sure about the other one. . .reading up though. Anysort 300 comes out this friday, so you go to go or no?
If your DM will allow it, go with the Divine Trickster for a prestige class, basically same thing as an Arcane Trickster but with a cleric/rogue instead. You would be able to do the stealth thing, heal yourself, and gain access to alot of good buff spells.
*really read the whole class before you make a decision, I think it is perfect for your sitch*
FH
Hey FH,
Thanks for the recomendation, I read over both Arcane Trickster and Divine Trickster and I think Divine Trickster is the way I want to go with this character. I know I'm going to go with the Luck domain but I'm not sure about the other. I'm thinking Knowledge. . .it seems to help with thieveing and finding the correct path. . .or maybe Trickery because the spells it give will help with sneaking around town, getting places I need to be through the disguise and invisibility spells. . .or Healing so I can heal myself. So if you can give me some advice as for the best possible choice I would really appreciate it. Thanks again FHXilo
and undead,
Undead = BAD NEWS for rogues! Just so you're aware. Happy gaming >:)
Director of Narrative
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I think I'm going to go with Divine Trickster. . .but with no diety just devoting myself to a cause. My domain is going to be Luck for one, I'm not 100% sure about the other one. . .reading up though.
Go with Olidamara and take Luck and Trickery. Luck is obvious, but Trickery will keep your roguish skills a bit more up to where they should be. I played a rogue/cleric of the Laughing Rogue when a DM ran us through that series of modules that WotC put out I was the party rogue and healer. This was pre-Divine Trickster so I was kinda weak on between the two, but for a solo with a good DM you should be quite effective.
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I think I'm going to go with Divine Trickster. . .but with no diety just devoting myself to a cause. My domain is going to be Luck for one, I'm not 100% sure about the other one. . .reading up though.Go with Olidamara and take Luck and Trickery. Luck is obvious, but Trickery will keep your roguish skills a bit more up to where they should be. I played a rogue/cleric of the Laughing Rogue when a DM ran us through that series of modules that WotC put out I was the party rogue and healer. This was pre-Divine Trickster so I was kinda weak on between the two, but for a solo with a good DM you should be quite effective.
Yeah, what he said. Trickery and Luck are nice ones to have. Also see if your DM will allow you to use alternate turning damage rules (burst effect centered on you, does 1d6 per level of damage to undead in a 20' radius (I think)).
Spell selection is gonna be key. Start reading up on cleric spells and look at making a list of must-haves for flavor and survival. Make a list of buff spells that last long times. If possible get some in wand form so you can free up spell slots for more spells while still having the ability to buff yourself up.FH
There are some spells that hallow you to sneak attack undead (in the Complete Adventurer, I think) otherwise you're screwed if you are facing large quantities of undead with no backup.
On another note would it be possible to combine a turning attempt and a sneak attack?
Take 3 levels of Swashbuckler(Complete Warrior) and however many levels of Rogue you wish. Make sure to have a good Int score, for a good damage bonus from Insightful strike. Make sure to take the Daring Outlaw feat(Complete Scoundrel) so that your levels stack.
I.E. An 8th level Rogue/3rd level Swashbuckler would have Grace +2, Dodge bonus to AC +2, and Sneak Attack 6D6. This feat alone is a good reason for owning both books. Plus Skill Tricks ROCK and ROLL ALLNIGHT LONG SWEET SUSIE. Anything else is Fey by comparison.IMLTHO.
There are some spells that hallow you to sneak attack undead (in the Complete Adventurer, I think) otherwise you're screwed if you are facing large quantities of undead with no backup.
On another note would it be possible to combine a turning attempt and a sneak attack?
I knwo the spell is definately in the Spell Compendium. I think it's called Grave Strike and it's a first level cleric spell.
Since its a cleric spell that would work pretty well for you and if you took either a level or two in ranger or a Undead Bane weapon then that would make you even more effective.
Hey guys, thanks soooo much for all your imput. I've decided to go with Divine Trickster-no devotion-domains luck and trickery. Thanks for all the info and thanks to FH for posting this character class!
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Hey guys, thanks soooo much for all your imput. I've decided to go with Divine Trickster-no devotion-domains luck and trickery. Thanks for all the info and thanks to FH for posting this character class!
Let us know how it works out in the game. I would like to hear someone else's opinion on the class after they have used it.
And my pleasure,FH
Roojh.
Or "thief".