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I know this sounds awful but, if my husband were threatened or my niece and nephews were threatened, and I was around. On those terms I would be a murderer.Why do you think that is awful? Is it better to sit back and let someone harm your family? I feel exactly the same way, even more, since anyone who broke in my house while I was present would also be 'killed' (I don't consider that murder).
I have a big problem with killing anyone and I loath the day it ever happens. But thats not too say I don't see the unfortunate necessity of it in certain situations. I wouldn't hesitate if my loved ones were threatened, but I'd likely feel horribly guilty for it.
. People are angry at vocal atheists because it's just not nice to rock the boat.I disagree. Rocking the boat, for me anyway, isn't the problem.
The problem is I see the promise of a new breed of zealots who can't even admit to themselves that they have a problem because their zeal is based in "logic" and "science" and "rational thought."
I love the fact that the iron grip of the religious powers that be is slipping.
I hate the fact that history repeats itsself, nature abhors a vacuum, and, inevitably, a new crew of douchebags will try to usurp the vacated throne.
The problem is I see the promise of a new breed of zealots who can't even admit to themselves that they have a problem because their zeal is based in "logic" and "science" and "rational thought."
On one level, they're annoying and brain-dead, but at least they're not afraid to stand up for the most hated minority group in the U.S. During the Civil Rights movement, MLK was marching for equal rights, and Malcolm X was advocating violence (which to the best of my knowledge no high-profile atheist is doing) -- so we don't look back and assume that "all people in favor of civil rights were violent anarchists." Yet that's exactly the sort of broad-brush strokes against atheists that are not only tolerated, but actively encouraged.
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The problem is I see the promise of a new breed of zealots who can't even admit to themselves that they have a problem because their zeal is based in "logic" and "science" and "rational thought."On one level, they're annoying and brain-dead, but at least they're not afraid to stand up for the most hated minority group in the U.S.
Holy crap I'm a gay atheist. I'm screwed.
And would probably be one of the first to scream for you to help him if it were he that was threatened. I guess it's ok to be a "serial killer" if it's his ass you're defending. That would be my guess any way
You guessed wrong. I don't see how trying to increase the death count from me to me+1 is the right thing to do.
Re: vocal atheists, think of it this way.
You're regularly told that:
And people wonder why a small minority of them get a bit agitated about it?
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People are angry at vocal atheists because it's just not nice to rock the boat.I disagree. Rocking the boat, for me anyway, isn't the problem.
The problem is I see the promise of a new breed of zealots who can't even admit to themselves that they have a problem because their zeal is based in "logic" and "science" and "rational thought."
I love the fact that the iron grip of the religious powers that be is slipping.
I hate the fact that history repeats itsself, nature abhors a vacuum, and, inevitably, a new crew of douchebags will try to usurp the vacated throne.
The abused becomes the abuser. It's hardly a novel concept. Why so shocked? I've also yet to see them as doing anything more than saying nasty things about theists and their imaginary friends. Has anyone blown up a cafe while shouting "I believe in a god-less universe"? Anyone been told they're not really Americans because they follow a God?
Maybe if Christians (as we're really talking about the American experience), or at least the extremist wings of the various branches, stopped trying to force their religious views on everyone else (compulsory public prayer in schools, wanting huge bloody great statues of the commandments built from public money and in the courthouses, lying to people about evolution, preventing wiccan symbols on the graves of wiccan soldiers because they're not christian symbols, persecution of homosexuals, etc., etc.) the atheists might not make such a fuss?
All that said, Dawkins is still an a~@~~+**. A very well-educated, articulate a$##~!#! but still an a~!%*#~*. If someone believes and doesn't try to impose it on you, it's none of your business, Richard.
The problem is I see the promise of a new breed of zealots who can't even admit to themselves that they have a problem because their zeal is based in "logic" and "science" and "rational thought."On one level, they're annoying and brain-dead, but at least they're not afraid to stand up for the most hated minority group in the U.S. During the Civil Rights movement, MLK was marching for equal rights, and Malcolm X was advocating violence (which to the best of my knowledge no high-profile atheist is doing) -- so we don't look back and assume that "all people in favor of civil rights were violent anarchists." Yet that's exactly the sort of broad-brush strokes against atheists that are not only tolerated, but actively encouraged.
Uh, yeah....from that link, considering that most atheist nations are peaceful?
What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so. Plus, that was more about communism than atheism. Atheists are the new buddha."Not that I think every atheist is a Pol Pot waiting to seize the reins, but from my standpoint, I don't trust people doing whitewashes.
I don't think all the problems in the world can be traced to religion. I think they can be traced to people doing crappy things to other people for personal gain or out of some ideological zeal.
Frankly, I don't see a new ideological ideal whose adherents don't recognize it to be potentially dangerous as particularly promising.
I don't know who are more vocally annoying, the typical crusading atheist, or Jehovah's Witnesses.Fixed that for you. The "typical atheist" goes to church on Sunday, not believing but going along so as not to rock the boat, and because it's a nice social bonding activity. People are angry at vocal atheists because it's just not nice to rock the boat. The very few crusading anti-theists, people like PZ Myers (who desecrated the Host on film) and Samnell, seem to be the people you're referring to.
PZ didn't desecrate a Host, which anyway is trivial and you're forgetting that he did it in response to religious death threats, on film. He did it off camera and then took a still shot of the garbage can to show us it was done. He dumped the cracker, a page out of a Koran, and the title page of the God Delusion into the garbage with a pile of coffee grounds and and a few banana peels. Oh yeah, and he stabbed it with a rusty nail. In response to death threats. If that makes one a crusading anti-theist, then a crusading anti-theist is a great thing to be.
Also the typical American, let alone the typical atheist, doesn't go to church very often at all. Less than half of Americans even lie about it to pollsters.
Re: vocal atheists, think of it this way.
You're regularly told that:You obviously have no morals;
You deserve to go to Hell and suffer an eternity of torture;
You're obviously just too stupid or stubborn to "get it" and be a good Christian like everyone else;
You're obviously a Stalinist;
The pledge of allegiance, currency, and motto were all changed in the '50's specifically to label you as an outsider;
You shouldn't even be considered a citizen (this one from Bush Sr., whom I otherwise liked). And people wonder why a small minority of them get a bit agitated about it?
Yeah; it goes both ways.
And remember this: you can pretend that everything Stalin did was due to a different ideology and atheist governments are amongst "the most peaceful in the world."In a lot of ways, Kirth, you're preaching to the choir.
I don't have a problem with atheists. Zealots though? Meh....
What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so.
Just as much as you gloss over the Inquisition, I guess. I personally don't see that as a reason to persecute you and force you out of mainsteam society.
What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so.Just as much as you gloss over the Inquisition, I guess. I personally don't see that as a reason to persecute you and force you out of mainsteam society.
Neither do I.
It's not really you I'm that worried about Kirth.|
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What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so.Just as much as you gloss over the Inquisition, I guess. I personally don't see that as a reason to persecute you and force you out of mainsteam society.Neither do I.
It's not really you I'm that worried about Kirth.
It's me be honest.
I don't have a problem with atheists.Yeah, as long as they don't talk about it in public, and pray with the rest of you when they're told to.
No, as long as they don't preach at me the same way I don't preach at them.
I don't care what anybody does, man.If you tell a Christian holy roller to shut up, you're a hero.
If you tell an Atheist logic roller to shut up, you're the Spanish Inquisition.
It's me be honest.What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so.Just as much as you gloss over the Inquisition, I guess. I personally don't see that as a reason to persecute you and force you out of mainsteam society.Neither do I.
It's not really you I'm that worried about Kirth.
I worry about you in different ways.
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It's me be honest.What I see is "let's gloss over the killing fields in Cambodia because it's convenient to do so.Just as much as you gloss over the Inquisition, I guess. I personally don't see that as a reason to persecute you and force you out of mainsteam society.Neither do I.
It's not really you I'm that worried about Kirth.
I worry about you in different ways.
** spoiler omitted **
Nah see, I have no problem with nice peaceful religious belief. Most of my friends are theistic in some way or another. And if it brings them peace and happiness then I'm all for it. But zealous religion is another creature, and it's something I clash with.
If you tell a Christian holy roller to shut up, you're a hero.
If you tell an Atheist logic roller to shut up, you're the Spanish Inquisition.
In a word, yes. Because one of them is using his status as a favored majority in an attempt to wipe out a minority. The other is trying to preserve the rights of that minority. Context DOES matter. The majority ALWAYS has the duty, and the obligation, to protect the rights of nonviolent minority groups, rather than to use the majority status to try and further disenfranchise them. That's just basic Civics 101.
In a word, yes. Because one of them is using his status as a favored majority in an attempt to wipe out a minority.If you tell a Christian holy roller to shut up, you're a hero.
If you tell an Atheist logic roller to shut up, you're the Spanish Inquisition.
I just see the Lupin bit from Monty Python, man.
Maybe I'm a bad person, but I'm getting the giggles at the thought of logic rollers. How dare they try to be and ask others to be logical! What we really need is for more people to just make stuff up and make no sense at all. That's the ticket!
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Wow, this got kind of uncivil while I was gone.
The whole "atheists are the new religious zealots" thing is bull, by the way. No one (rational) is trying to force atheism on anyone or take their rights away. We're trying to ensure the rights of everyone, and stop people from forcing their own religion onto others.
And being an advocate of logic, reason, science, and rational thought does not make one a zealot - one must abandon those ideals in order to become a zealot.
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zealot: an excessively zealous person; fanatic.
zealous: full of, characterized by, or due to zeal; ardently active, devoted, or diligent.
zeal: fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor.
fanatic: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal.
Since definitions were obviously unknown.
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zealot: an excessively zealous person; fanatic.
zealous: full of, characterized by, or due to zeal; ardently active, devoted, or diligent.
zeal: fervor for a person, cause, or object; eager desire or endeavor; enthusiastic diligence; ardor.
fanatic: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal.
Since definitions were obviously unknown.
Nope I still clash with zealots. Sorry CJ, zealots are either the ones criticizing me for my marriage or they're the ones telling me I'm not doing enough for civil rights. I find the ones that are that enthusiastic about it are the ones with issues one way or another.
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zealot: an excessively zealous person; fanatic.
In this context, I inferred that the "fanatic" definition was being used. Unless you guys are actually saying that you can't stand anyone who's enthusiastic about their pursuits?
fanatic: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal.
Once you've stopped thinking critically, you've abandoned scientific rational thought, as I said.
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zealot: an excessively zealous person; fanatic.In this context, I inferred that the "fanatic" definition was being used. Unless you guys are actually saying that you can't stand anyone who's enthusiastic about their pursuits?
fanatic: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal.Once you've stopped thinking critically, you've abandoned scientific rational thought, as I said.
Changing a definition to suite your wants and needs does not make it less real.
@ Jeremy I never said they were not fanatics, it does not preclude you from being one too if you choose.
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zealot: an excessively zealous person; fanatic.In this context, I inferred that the "fanatic" definition was being used. Unless you guys are actually saying that you can't stand anyone who's enthusiastic about their pursuits?
fanatic: a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal.Once you've stopped thinking critically, you've abandoned scientific rational thought, as I said.Changing a definition to suite your wants and needs does not make it less real.
@ Jeremy I never said they were not fanatics, it does not preclude you from being one too if you choose.
I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.
Maybe I'm a bad person, but I'm getting the giggles at the thought of logic rollers. How dare they try to be and ask others to be logical! What we really need is for more people to just make stuff up and make no sense at all. That's the ticket!
No, Samnell. You couldn't possibly be a bad person. You have logic and rationality and science on your side. Nothing bad ever occurs where logic, rationality, and science rule the hearts of humans.
Perish the thought.
I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.
You better cowboy up if you're gonna be a REAL ghostbuster, kid.
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I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.You better cowboy up if you're gonna be a REAL ghostbuster, kid.
Am I asking to much to be just left alone now that the issue is settled in my country. We have had gay marriage since 2005, if some shit disturber tries to inflame something then he's going down. The issue is settled. When our conservative party came in decided they were going to reopen the debate, they couldn't even get enough votes in the house of commons to reopen the issue, people were done with it. So yeah I get upset with the shit pulled to the south of me. I may comment on it, but I never actually do anything about it. I got 2 jobs a husband and a PHD thesis to worry about. Not to mention a my niece and nephews I help support (times are tough and no one else in the family will help). So when I say i don't have the energy for it, I really don't.....
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Am I asking to much to be just left alone now that the issue is settled in my country. We have had gay marriage since 2005, if some s!%* disturber tries to inflame something then he's going down. The issue is settled. When our conservative party came in decided they were going to reopen the debate, they couldn't even get enough votes in the house of commons to reopen the issue, people were done with it. So yeah I get upset with the s!%* pulled to the south of me. I may comment on it, but I never actually do anything about it. I got 2 jobs a husband and a PHD thesis to worry about. Not to mention a my niece and nephews I help support (times are tough and no one else in the family will help). So when I say i don't have the energy for it, I really don't.....I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.You better cowboy up if you're gonna be a REAL ghostbuster, kid.
Keystrokes take energy, my friend. Let us voters in Texas worry about Texas.
Oh, and by the way, um, there is no way in hell anyone is overturning the Supreme Court's ruling eliminating the sodomy laws down here.
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Am I asking to much to be just left alone now that the issue is settled in my country. We have had gay marriage since 2005, if some s!%* disturber tries to inflame something then he's going down. The issue is settled. When our conservative party came in decided they were going to reopen the debate, they couldn't even get enough votes in the house of commons to reopen the issue, people were done with it. So yeah I get upset with the s!%* pulled to the south of me. I may comment on it, but I never actually do anything about it. I got 2 jobs a husband and a PHD thesis to worry about. Not to mention a my niece and nephews I help support (times are tough and no one else in the family will help). So when I say i don't have the energy for it, I really don't.....I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.You better cowboy up if you're gonna be a REAL ghostbuster, kid.
Keystrokes take energy, my friend. Let us voters in Texas worry about Texas.
Oh, and by the way, um, there is no way in hell anyone is overturning the Supreme Court's ruling eliminating the sodomy laws down here.
Thats a positive thought.
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Am I asking to much to be just left alone now that the issue is settled in my country. We have had gay marriage since 2005, if some s!%* disturber tries to inflame something then he's going down. The issue is settled. When our conservative party came in decided they were going to reopen the debate, they couldn't even get enough votes in the house of commons to reopen the issue, people were done with it. So yeah I get upset with the s!%* pulled to the south of me. I may comment on it, but I never actually do anything about it. I got 2 jobs a husband and a PHD thesis to worry about. Not to mention a my niece and nephews I help support (times are tough and no one else in the family will help). So when I say i don't have the energy for it, I really don't.....I don't have the energy to be a fanatic. But yes I do feel the outrage at bigotry, and bigotted religion. But otherwise everything else is fine in religious terms. If your not going to bother me and my life then great, but if you try stupid ass legislation to limit my civil rights your going down in flames.You better cowboy up if you're gonna be a REAL ghostbuster, kid.
Keystrokes take energy, my friend. Let us voters in Texas worry about Texas.
Oh, and by the way, um, there is no way in hell anyone is overturning the Supreme Court's ruling eliminating the sodomy laws down here.
Barely any energy involved in that one with 0 effect in the end. My post will effect no policy change on the law whatsoever.
Nothing bad ever occurs where logic, rationality, and science rule the hearts of humans.
In the sense of human-created problems? I'm not aware of anything that has. (Of course floods, hurricanes, and the like are going to descend on people without inquiring as to their religion.) Care to give an example?
Or are you, like CJ, going to refuse to show me any evidence?
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Nothing bad ever occurs where logic, rationality, and science rule the hearts of humans.In the sense of human-created problems? I'm not aware of anything that has. (Of course floods, hurricanes, and the like are going to descend on people without inquiring as to their religion.) Care to give an example?
Or are you, like CJ, going to refuse to show me any evidence?
I am not refusing to show you any evidence you just refuse to notice the evidence all around you.
I am not refusing to show you any evidence you just refuse to notice the evidence all around you.
I have noticed the vast quantities of evidence that there is no god or other supernatural entity, least of all the kind you worship. One of us is clearly mistaken and I have attempted to find out which, but you keep refusing all such entreaties.
Why is that?
In a word, yes. Because one of them is using his status as a favored majority in an attempt to wipe out a minority. The other is trying to preserve the rights of that minority. Context DOES matter. The majority ALWAYS has the duty, and the obligation, to protect the rights of nonviolent minority groups, rather than to use the majority status to try and further disenfranchise them. That's just basic Civics 101.If you tell a Christian holy roller to shut up, you're a hero.
If you tell an Atheist logic roller to shut up, you're the Spanish Inquisition.
Oh; thanks for the insights btw. It does help.
I think we're two sides of the same coin.
In a word, yes. Because one of them is using his status as a favored majority in an attempt to wipe out a minority. The other is trying to preserve the rights of that minority. Context DOES matter. The majority ALWAYS has the duty, and the obligation, to protect the rights of nonviolent minority groups, rather than to use the majority status to try and further disenfranchise them. That's just basic Civics 101.If you tell a Christian holy roller to shut up, you're a hero.
If you tell an Atheist logic roller to shut up, you're the Spanish Inquisition.Oh; thanks for the insights btw. It does help.
I think we're two sides of the same coin.
Not to toot my own horn, but I work in medicine yadda yadda....
some (somewhat passive-agressive) family member kept asking me over and over "do you accept Christ as your lord and savior?" I wouldn't answer; she said it was a simple question, and I said it's essentially complicated by the fact that I believe that everybody who comes here needs to feel like there isn't any sort of preferential treatment based on belief (or not) and the workers in this institution don't advance one belief system as superior to another for that very reason.So, anyway...I'm so great; toot toot.
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Changing a definition to suite your wants and needs does not make it less real.
By your own admission, their are two definitions of zealot; either someone who has zeal (enthusiasm, determination), or a fanatic.
By your own admission, a fanatic is someone who is not thinking critically (they are uncritical).
I propose that someone who is not thinking critically is not being fully rational or logical, and therefore cannot qualify as one of the previously mentioned "zealots of logic" - the phrase is an oxymoron, the way I see it.
I see two places in the discussion where I might be losing you:
A) You are using the first, less common (IME) definition of zealot (someone with enthusiasm and determination). In this case, you are right, there are certainly zealots of logic and reason - under that definition, even I qualify for the title. However, I think it is much more likely that the "fanatic" definition is the proper one in this context.
B) You don't think that "uncritical" = "not thinking critically", or you believe that critical thinking is not related to logic or rational thought.
P.S. - It's ironic to see a moderate Christian / Christian apologist (my apologies if the labels offend you) accuse an atheist of shifting goalposts. Usually the dynamic is reversed ;-p
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Not to toot my own horn, but I work in medicine yadda yadda....
some (somewhat passive-agressive) family member kept asking me over and over "do you accept Christ as your lord and savior?" I wouldn't answer; she said it was a simple question, and I said it's essentially complicated by the fact that I believe that everybody who comes here needs to feel like there isn't any sort of preferential treatment based on belief (or not) and the workers in this institution don't advance one belief system as superior to another for that very reason.
So, anyway...I'm so great; toot toot.
A well deserved tooting, sir. That was probably the most diplomatic thing you could have said in the situation.
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You guessed wrong. I don't see how trying to increase the death count from me to me+1 is the right thing to do.
And would probably be one of the first to scream for you to help him if it were he that was threatened. I guess it's ok to be a "serial killer" if it's his ass you're defending. That would be my guess any way
I'll go ahead and call bullshit on this. You are a human being, human beings have a strong survival instinct. To say that you would not run to get someones aid in protecting your own life is more of your "I'm so logical that I'm smarter than you" type crap that you spew on a regular basis. Samnell you and I have agreed on a couple things, but your insistence that all religion is bad, and that all service men/women are murderers is pure hate filled vitriol. That puts you in the bigot category. I'm done with this puppy pound, y'all have a nice time trying to find more and more "civil" ways to insult and degrade those who have differing views, oh and don't forget to keep saying it's them that are the bigots.
I'll come back when this thread grows up.
I'll go ahead and call b@@#&~%@ on this. You are a human being, human beings have a strong survival instinct. To say that you would not run to get someones aid in protecting your own life is more of your "I'm so logical that I'm smarter than you" type crap that you spew on a regular basis.
What, so it's ok for you to construct a fantasy scenario where I'm a hypocrite but it's not ok for me to construct one where I'm not?
And human beings have been known to overcome their survival instinct before. I would think the examples are pretty obvious, but here are just a few.
I have noticed the vast quantities of evidence that there is no god or other supernatural entity...Really?
Only while waking I suppose.
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I have noticed the vast quantities of evidence that there is no god or other supernatural entity...Really?
Considering the whole can't-prove-a-negative thing, I suppose it's more accurate to say "I've noticed the vast quantities of evidence supporting a naturalistic worldview" or "I've noticed an amazing lack of credible evidence supporting the existence of a god or other supernatural entity".
Considering the whole can't-prove-a-negative thing, I suppose it's more accurate to say "I've noticed the vast quantities of evidence supporting a naturalistic worldview" or "I've noticed an amazing lack of credible evidence supporting the existence of a god or other supernatural entity".
You're right; that would be better. I was lazy.
I'd add this addition to your formulation: And the supernaturalist theories of the universe suggest predictions. These predictions, to date, have not been born out in reality.
Hey Kirth when you get a chance shoot me an email will you.
I would, but I can't seem to put my finger on your email address.
I had just found yours again but I have your FB now so all is good. :)
You're the request I just got, last name ends in "LL"?