I have been looking over the latest threads and some of the older ones and I have heard a lot about what people want to become. They want to multiclass as something or other or join this prestige class then another and then another. Nothing wrong with wanting to do that, all the power to you if you are having fun with it. But my question is this.
Does anyone out there just pick a class and stick with it?
This also brings up the next question about picking feats and stuff. I know I have done it and it was kind of fun but ruined some of the spontaneity of the game, something I don't think I will ever do again.
Does anyone just start off their character with a history and let them evolve naturally? I mean, do you let you character pick feats and things like that as they come up or do you prefer to have it laid out in advance? (i.e. at level 3 I want this feat then at 6 I want this etc...)
I know I will get some good advice and things. Thanks
A.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
I don't tend to plan in advance, but as the character grows and grows it becomes more and more difficult not to think a few steps ahead.
My favorite players, as a DM, are the ones who make "advancement adjustments" due to something that happened in the campaign. A character taking a level of cleric in an undead-heavy game, for example.
--Erik
|
Alasanii -- I'm not the best person to answer this question, since I'm still on my first character. But my approach was to create a backstory to set up my character's motivations and key characteristics, and now I'm letting her personality evolve throughout the game. Basically, I think "how would a person with my character's background react to these events?" Then I let the changes and character development flow from there. For example, my character is currently dealing with the trauma of having killed another person for the first time (she's only 16 years old, although she left home four years ago). The choices she makes next will be based on how she deals with that, and how she deals with that will direct what she focuses her attention on (eg- she's going to practice more powerful non-lethal spells, but also get some more training with her longsword because she almost lost the fight).
Concerning multiclassing and PrCs, I'm still way too new at roleplaying to even think about it! :-) I'm still figuring out the basics of playing one class plus picking spells and feats. Although I am looking at some of the feats from PBHII, since there are some cool bard-related feats available there, of which the PBH is lacking in my opinion.
I've always tended to pick what classes my character's take at level-up, looking back over my roleplay and asking myself what the character has done the most. Same with feats and skills--everything really. It tends to make it frustratingly hard to become a prestige class, since I loathe the metagaming involved in trying to force my character's development one way or another (sometimes I just want to say the heck with it and if a fighter takes a few jobs secretly whacking people and does well enough at it that he gets a first job from the guild, that he's a de facto Assassin, enough levels in move silently or no!)
Generally they tend to stay pretty close to their base class however. If they're a ranger, most of their levels tend to be ranger because I've found that without some kind of focus characters just lose their specific flavor and just become a mishmash of special abilities. I like the ability to multiclass a character to give a couple of different angles to them, a barbarian-druid combo for example for a bit fiercer guardian of nature, or in our most recent game the idea of an aging Paladin taking some cleric levels to reflect that after all these years its become more about opening his heart to the pure teachings and power of his faith and setting aside the self-righteous rage and wrath of his youth.
I love creating a charater and building a good backstory for them and just playing them as they come.
However I have noticed stat wise that a charater that is carefully planned from lv 1 ends up a lot more powerful then a charater that is build "as they go along." Many players I have met do what you have said, plan their charaters out. I know people that when asked to make a first level charater plan their level progression until level 20.
I am not very good with making charaters, so I tend to just go with the flow. It's very common for me to tell the DM or ask Thanis questions like, "I want her to learn to further her ice magic and learn to make snowflake shrikens" or something like that and the DM will help me make a spell or will suggest what I should do for my next level. Often people I play with will allow me to do things with action points (if we are playing with them) and skill checks to where I can actually have my charaters pratice what I want them to learn and eventually when I level I get that skill/spell/feat etc... a great example is taking the "bad stuff" for doings things like firing an arrow into melee, firing too far, trying to load too quick etc the level before I take the assiocaited bow feat.
Do to my choice in making my charaters as I went along, a few of my charaters, which started as the same level as everyone elses and is still the same level range, tends to be alot less powerful.
I find that I have more fun and enjoy my drawings, so I think I really score in the long run.
For the record... ice shirkens sound awesome... Someone should make that spell.
I find that I have more fun and enjoy my drawings, so I think I really score in the long run.
Me too. I usually have a vague idea where I want my characters to go, but nothing concrete or defined in game mechanic terms. After all, something may happen that drastically changes my character's outlook. I may go from happy-go-lucky to serious and withdrawn - who knows how the campaign will play out?
For the record... ice shirkens sound awesome... Someone should make that spell.
They made fire shurikens, a second level assassin spell - it's in the Spell Compendium (and Oriental Adventures). You could probably swap the descriptor from "Fire" to "Cold" and have yourself a handy spell. It probably be a fourth level sorcerer/wizard spell if you converted it - not sure, I don't have the book handy.
In fact, a lot of the "fire" spells could conceivable be swapped for a "cold" descriptor instead. Your Mileage May Vary, of course - talk it over with the DM first.
|
(...)However I have noticed stat wise that a charater that is carefully planned from lv 1 ends up a lot more powerful then a charater that is build "as they go along."(...)
That is true! I presently have two players in my campaign. One planned his character from 1st to 20th level and the other one just waited for what was coming.
If you have something special in mind, I would also plan ahead as much as possible. If you like to be surprised once in a while (as real life is sometimes), than I would start thinking about what feats, class, skills to take next when I reach a new level.After playing 3.5 for a while now, I came up with rule for PrC. My players will no longer be able to "pick" them for themselves. I give the players an opportunity for a PrC when it arises through role-playing in-game, not because "Now I take a level in Assassin!".
Thanks for all the input. I know that I and my friends usually get a good back story for our characters first and then say that their lifelong dream was to become"insert class/prestigeclass".
Currently I have a character that has a really assorted past. I made him a half-drow who got transformed into a feral ( think of a joining from Gemmell's books except more cerebral) by drow for demons. This was after the village was destroyed by orcs for the drow.
So he somehow ends up in a monastery to be raised by some monks and ranger folk. so the only planning that my DM and I have come up with for him is that his favored enemies are going to be orcs, then drow, and then demons. That is because he is going to realize who caused the destruction of his adoptive family and for what reasons.
But, yeah, the rest is all as it comes. It should be fun.
Keep the feedback coming. I love hearing about how people develop their characters.
A>
One of my players/DMs happens to be the type to plan out all his characters (save the ones he knows will not be in any long term game) from 1st to 20th+ level. It has always seemed kind of an odd concept to me - I think the "just playing it straight" mentality comes mostly from having played earlier editions of the game. The game has evolved, ladies and gentlemen - and so must we, bend or break.
The problem with laying out the game plan from 1st to 20th in 3rd edition is the choices that sometimes come up during the campaign - sometimes (in an adventure I plan to run soon) a character may be offered a feat that he would not be aware of while planning out the character (and one I would not the tell the player, since it would be a bit of a spoiler). Other times (such as in Age of Worms), an entire prestige class might be offered to worthy heroes.
On the other hand, there are many pros to knowing what your character will be capable of in 5 or 10 levels.
The solution to this dilemma is two-fold -
DMs: if you plan to offer your character a special feat or prestige class, let your players know that something along these lines might be available for their use. No need to be specific, just say, "sometime after 10th level, there might be the opportunity to take a special prestige class, just to let you know."
Players: Let your DM know your game plan, so he knows what to expect and so you know he's okay with your class/feat choices. Make sure the other players know that you are building a game plan (again, no need to be specific unless you want to be) so they know to also plan their characters. This is really to help the DM - if all the players are optimized or all are not, it makes it a lot easier to provide the correct challenge for the party as a whole.
Also: Make prestige classes prestigious. Does your player want to be an Order of the Bow Initiate/Deepwood Sniper? Let them know from the get-go that not only are they going to have to fill the mechanical prestige requirements, they're going to have to find the Order of the Bow and pass the entry tests, then journey into the deepest wood in the heart of the savage lands to find the zen master Deepwood Sniper - and avoid being turned into a pincushion by her. Don't make it impossible, mind you - make it fun. That's the real point, isn't it?
TK
In fact, a lot of the "fire" spells could conceivable be swapped for a "cold" descriptor instead. Your Mileage May Vary, of course - talk it over with the DM first.
That's actually what we've been doing for the most part - her character's got an innate cold substitution going on, eventually to become an ice elemental.
This all just reminds me of a Star Wars campaign I was running. There was a player, new to our group, who came to me with his frieghter pilot smuggler character and was talking me through where he wanted his character's story to go, eventually ending up with him being a jedi. I just smiled. The other player, a long-timer in the group laughed and sorta' helped talk the guy down.
It's cool to formulate plans, and to have high hopes for a character, and to create a cool backstory, but if a character comes to me in a game I'm running and starts describing his character's future to me, where he wants it to go. Well beyond a smile and a "nice to know" and a suggestion they just cross themselves and buckle their seatbelts there's little more to it. Games must evolve organically. Characters must grow naturally. Otherwise it's all stale and yucky. Personally if you want to know where your character will be in ten levels you might be better off just writing a novel.
I almost invariably 'play it straight', with PCs and NPCs. I don't care for PrCs and even less for multiclassing. It just isn't appealing to me to 'water down' a character even in exchange for more versatility. Actually I take 'playing it straight' to the extreme; I always take the minimum number of skills so I can max them all out. If I'm running a 20th level non-human fighter with an 8 Intelligence, you can bet your soul that he will have a single skill with 23 ranks! It's just so much simpler this way. If I'm running a wizard or other character with permanent Int boosts, I'll ask the DM if I can max out any new partial-ranked skills with XP or training.
As to character planning, I am guilty of doing this alot; almost invariably to level 20. This may be powerplaying a bit but I like to know that my character will always be a valuable asset to the party and not just an XP sponge. A change in plans due to roleplaying or adventure situation is one thing, but I just can't bring myself to 'flow with things'.
|
It's cool to formulate plans, and to have high hopes for a character, and to create a cool backstory, but if a character comes to me in a game I'm running and starts describing his character's future to me, where he wants it to go. Well beyond a smile and a "nice to know" and a suggestion they just cross themselves and buckle their seatbelts there's little more to it. Games must evolve organically. Characters must grow naturally. Otherwise it's all stale and yucky. Personally if you want to know where your character will be in ten levels you might be better off just writing a novel.
This pretty well says it all for me. I don't mind when characters have some plan as to where they want to go, but I have never seen it actually happen rigidly more than two levels ahead. Usually the players in our group are only looking to the next level or the next feat or the next one thing. Everything just seems to get grey if you look too much farther because the DM has plans for the entire party -- not just your one character.
I see how thing go and choose as I go along. Sure, it'll be a weaker character than planning everything out, but when does everything go exactly as planned in real life? My way also tends to give my characters a "live-in" feel to them.
Funny thing; I DM the same way as I play my characters. Sure you have to plan ahead as a DM, but I tend to never plan more than one adventure before it happens. This way, if the players suddenly feel the urge to change continent, they can.
Ultradan
Excellent points Thanis; planning ahead is fine but keep all involved parties 'in the know'! Developing the character together will improve results.
Personally I prefer sticking to a single class, letting each subsequent adventure dictate the next level. Learn a lot about Kyuss? A few ranks in Knowledge: Religion at next level for my mage. Once in awhile this may take the form of multiclassing too. Some decisions don't really help the overall character though & you end up with feats & skills you don't need/want anymore.
I enjoy letting the character personality dictate their path, tempered by their experiences. Part of that though is having a general goal to achieve. Mix that all together and voila, entertainment & fun and maybe, just maybe, you'll end up near what you were aiming for ;-)
J-
Does anyone just start off their character with a history and let them evolve naturally? I mean, do you let you character pick feats and things like that as they come up or do you prefer to have it laid out in advance? (i.e. at level 3 I want this feat then at 6 I want this etc...)
Whenever I make a character (something I don't do enough, since I tend to DM), I approach it from a few angles.
1. I need to find the hook for the character. Whether it's a race, a line from a book, a song, a PrC, etc., I need that hook to be interested in telling the character's story.
2. I look through the rulebooks available to see if any classes (whether base or PrC) can help me fulfill that hook.
3. If I find a PrC that fits, I check with my DM to see if it's allowed, then figure out how to qualify for the PrC. If it's a base class, then I look over the variants to see if any of them make more sense.
4. I skim the Feats allowed, to see if any of them fit with the hook. If I find one, I see what I need to qualify for the Feat.
5. Rinse and repeat until I have a hodgepodge of "Stuff I Want." I then winnow it down until I have a working outline of the character, then create it as whatever level is appropriate.
6. I throw all my planning out the window after the game begins, because once things start happening to my character, he's going to go in a completely different direction than I had intended.
As a DM, there's nothing I appreciate more than PCs that evolve based on the story, not just what the player wants. Sometimes that results in suboptimal builds. Sometimes it creates Barbarian/Ranger/Hordebreaker/Frenzied Berserker/Spellfire Channelers.
In my long-running Campaign of Doom, we've had several deaths, quite a new characters, and with the exception of a halfling fighter/duellist, every one of the PCs is different now than what they originally started out as. To me, that's the way it should be.
Now that I think about it...
Planning your character from level one all the way to level twenty sounds to me like: "My character will become this no matter what the other characters do or how the story goes". So what's the point of calling it role-playing?
A character should grow with his environment, his experiences, no?
Ultradan
I tend to plan my characters out from 1st to 20th level, and choose which feats I'm going to get and where I want to put my stat points. (I don't pre-plan where I'm going to put my character's skill points or what spells I'm going to take. Those are far to dependent upon what's going on in the campaign.) I also tend to write out a 'wish list' of the equipment I would eventually like to get. Mind you, these plans aren't set in stone. If a new book comes out with new feats, sometimes I change up what I'd already had planed. I like taking PrCs, and I tend to know which one I want to take when I begin making a new character, so I plan everything out so I can get my PrC as soon as possible, since many of the benifits from PrCs are good to have ASAP. I've also found that having a plan in front of me helps me level up my character faster. My DM alows us to lv up as soon as we reach the required XP, so it saves some time if everyone already knows what feat their going to take.
Generally I just think taking a PrC is not what i'm looking for. After 16 lvls with nothing except spells while being a sorcerer, I have to say I started bending. Eventually I broke and chose to be a wild mage so I could finally let lose of all the power and anger I had gained from adventuring. Now, I have to say, wild mage has saved me alot with that random DC ability.
To tell the truth nothing is wrong with taking a PrC in my eyes, but I am a person that trys to play it straight unless I just can't resist or it seems perfect for the time. I actually planed becoming a PrC at a high level so it would be as I gained power I gained knowledge and new abilities. As for my other characters (warlock and druid) I don't plan on taking a PrC. I actually do plan to for my evil bard. He will first take 5 lvls in bard, than take dirge singer(Libris Mortis), and then become a Sublime Chord(complete Arcane). I got reasons for it though, I am an insidious evil bard so I guess dirge singer seems right, and I want to be able to charm people with magic, so Sublime Chord works too. This will be my first character that really takes PrCs. Could anyone tell me if they have had any success with PrCs?
~Flabulater OUT!
Hey!
I always 'play it straight'. The events of the game help define (change?) the PC's personality. But my class is set; skill points and feats are all the customisation I need. If you multiclass, you miss out on the high level abilities and prestige of a 20th level X. I'm not really interested in PrCs; they're really a tool for GM world building. If a secret faction of arcane warriors (re. Eldritch Knight PrC) is interested in inducting my character that's cool - I'll roleplay that. And have a great time doing so, but I don't need to multiclass into fighter(, oh wait, barbarian because I'll get more use out of the speed bonus than another feat, the HD is higher and I get 4 skill points and a Rage, which means I can later qualify for the...) to make my Sorcerer an Eldritch Knight. Blah! Sorry, it's late. :)
/rant
Peace,
tfad
I had a character in a star wars campaign.
Started him off as a smuggler with high charisma and dex. Added a few levels of soldier later on as found he needed the combat bonuses. Then saw how much fun the jedi guardians were having with lightsabers and then somehow got the dm to allow me to switch to jedi consular..
it was a very unorthadox character..I was the "starbuck" of the Jedi..always testing the limit of the jedi code...
Not dark side mind you, more like..chaotic...
other jedi characters were disgusted that I resorted to grenades and hvy blasters when comabt broke out instead of the lightsaber..but hey..I got more crits with my trusty blastech thunderer than i ever did with my 2d8 lightsaber..
I saw the name of this thread, then Ultradan's tag down there, and I thoughts, "uh oh, Brokeback Mountain thread part deux..."
I thought about it when I put the title up,but I figured it would get your attention.!
Giddy up Cowboy;)
As for prestige classes I am not against them at all i just thought that it seems like alot of people only play the game to get prestige classes. All of it is good though if you have fun. Just not my cup of tea. I like to roleplay with a good backstory and see what happens in the future.
I saw the name of this thread, then Ultradan's tag down there, and I thoughts, "uh oh, Brokeback Mountain thread part deux..."
Save a horse, ride a cowboy! (c'mon you knew that was coming...)
For the record... ice shirkens sound awesome... Someone should make that spell.They made fire shurikens, a second level assassin spell - it's in the Spell Compendium (and Oriental Adventures). You could probably swap the descriptor from "Fire" to "Cold" and have yourself a handy spell. It probably be a fourth level sorcerer/wizard spell if you converted it - not sure, I don't have the book handy.
In fact, a lot of the "fire" spells could conceivable be swapped for a "cold" descriptor instead. Your Mileage May Vary, of course - talk it over with the DM first.
No need for all that, simply grab the Energy Substitution feat and choose Cold. Now all energy spells can be prepared/spontaneously casted as cold spells instead of its original energy descriptor.
A character should grow with his environment, his experiences, no?
That's indeed my main sticking point against level-planning. At the risk of sounding mean or overly simplistic (and I'm not trying to be), those who do level planning seem to come from a background of console rpgs and computer rpgs, such as Diablo, Everquest, and Final Fantasy, where you'd almost be a fool not to, on your second go around at the very least, plot out a progression path (at least mentally). I've always been more of a Zelda guy (with the main character having no named class) than a Final Fantasy one, but I'll admit I do enjoy both. I'm not saying that's the only thing that leads them to do level-planning, but I am sure that it's either a contributing factor or a simultaneous development in gaming.
I guess it's a dilemma created by the 3rd edition rules that I don't think I've quite come to terms with.
TK
It doesn't really matter whether they plan or not in my opinion. Any party has a relatively small chance of survival in the grand scheme of things, especially when you throw in a curveball like The Tomb of Horrors adventure. Even the two level 20 characters in the party are having an awful time surviving. One just crawled into a sphere of annialation.
Just my input
No need for all that, simply grab the Energy Substitution feat and choose Cold. Now all energy spells can be prepared/spontaneously casted as cold spells instead of its original energy descriptor.
Good idea, it's something I would do, but I may want to look at from the point of not sacrificing my higher levels spells for lower level ones. If I recall, energy substitution/energy admixture requires the sacrifice of a higher level spell slot.
I do a good mix of both, I know where my characters are going in terms of prestige classes and feat chains but I don't meticulously plan out my progression. For instance I recently played a Monk as a experiment but eventually I lost my Lawful alignment, rather than scurry around trying to get it back I embraced it as a chance to do something REALLY unusual and took levels in Fighter and eventually Barbarian when I reached full blown Chaotic alignment. This gave me some awesome roleplaying opportunities as my character struggled with and eventually embraced their chaotic nature and rejection from their order, plus one hell of a kickass character (just think, a barbarian who can beat you into a soft squishy pulp with their bare hands).
On the other hand, I also have a 18th level Fighter who's seen no reason to multiclass as no prestige class really offers the right kind of abilities for what he does (Smash people into the ground with a glaive).
Basically I plan what I want to do with my characters but if they suddenly are put into situation where multi-classing or certain feats would suit a new direction they're going in via roleplaying then I go with it. It seems to work well.
|
|
...I loathe the metagaming involved in trying to force my character's development one way or another (sometimes I just want to say the heck with it and if a fighter takes a few jobs secretly whacking people and does well enough at it that he gets a first job from the guild, that he's a de facto Assassin, enough levels in move silently or no!).
Indeed.
Prestige classes come in two varieties; ones which rely on self-learning or mentoring, where you just get better at what you're already good at simply by doing it day in, day out. Eg, if you stay in the wilds tracking, you become some sort of expert tracker, with more favoured enemies, but you might lose focus on your rangers spell abilities...
Two, some are organisations, who either actively recruit members, or weed out unsuitable members from those who approach them.
With respect to the first group, some abilities are obviously required before you can go on to learn the further abilities; you need Track (and a few ranks of Survival) before you can gain swift tracking or similar advanced abilities.
With the second group, I believe membership should be based on a case-by-case basis. The Assassins Guild is a perfect example. Whilst most of their members would be roguish types, there would also be unsubtle enforcers, priests of the trickster/murder gods, and wizards to defend the safehouses, infiltrate enemy homes and disable the wards protecting the targets.
Whether you are granted membership has far more to do with how useful you are, whether an existing member will vouch for you, and whether you can keep your mouth shut, than how many ranks of Hide you have (if indeed you have any at all!).
Introduction: seedy tavern.
Guilder: So, can you hide?
Mage: I can cast invisibility...
G: Can you move silently?
M: I can cast silence...
G: Can you hit a target from 100 yards with a crossbow?
M: I can cast magic missile...
G: Can you unlock a masterwork lock?
M: I can cast knock...
G: Can you climb a sheer wall?
M: I can fly, dimension door, teleport, ethereal jaunt, ...
G: Piss off, you're no good to us.
Just wouldn't happen, would it?