Actually, I have a problem with Wolfgang's version of true ghouls. The sore point with me is that true ghouls are more sophisticated and educated than the feral ghouls that players normally encounter, but if you look at the stats they have a lower Intelligence score (true ghouls have an Intelligence of 10 and normal ghouls an Intelligence of 13). How does this make any sense? If anything, the Intelligence scores of the two creatures should be reversed.
The sore point with me is that true ghouls are more sophisticated and educated than the feral ghouls that players normally encounter, but if you look at the stats they have a lower Intelligence score (true ghouls have an Intelligence of 10 and normal ghouls an Intelligence of 13). How does this make any sense? If anything, the Intelligence scores of the two creatures should be reversed.
I think that the culture and sophistication shows up in their Charisma, and not necessarily their Intelligence. I would rationalize that surface gouls are cunning creatures that have to hunt to survive, thus granting them the benefit of Intelligence's bonus skill points. The true ghouls of the White City however, while sophisticated in their social mores, are not necessarily spending time learning new things and making intellectual advances.
The true ghouls, as described so far, actually remind me of wealthy art museum board members. . . all class and no brains.
But that's another story. ;)
Who ever said that cultured and sophisticated people had high Charisma's? There are a lot of people who are extremely sophisticated, but absolute bores. Also, you can't create a sophisticated culture without brains. Of course, what I should be asking is why the highly Intelligent ghouls are feral?
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I like Wolfgang's work, but I almost got pissed when I saw yet another Ghoul in one of his adventures....(The White Kingdom, Ecology, etc...ick...)
You see, I'm just the opposite, but probably because I never saw the whole White Kingodm thing. I've heard about it before, and I thought it a fascinating subject. It reminds me of the ghouls in the Dream Lands written of by Lovecraft and expanded on by Brian Lumely. I love that stuff.
Also, you can't create a sophisticated culture without brains. Of course, what I should be asking is why the highly Intelligent ghouls are feral?
As Chris said probably, the same reasons wolves are so intelligent and dogs not so much. Also one usually finds the typical ghoul running in a small pack whereas the true ghouls live in a city hence the bell curve has several more drop dead (pardon the pun) morons as well as some brilliant brain vivisectionists. Also humans on average rank a 10 in the game and are doing pretty well, which brings me to my last point; it's game: if it bothers you just change it. Make it an average of 22, and drop some of the extra skill points in Ride so they can ride their Large, fiendish, two-headed, winged, dryad liches into combat against the deadly anthropomorphic, gaseous, baleen whale oozes that live in the clouds of Celestia. There are tons of "uncivilized" hyper-intelligent wunderkins in D&D sort of like in Call of Cthulhu where you never want to play chess with a dark young, for many reasons the least of which is probably the fact it has a huge Int score. Actually a lot of intelligent monsters in fantasy and sci-fi (hags, fallen alien races, demons, genies) tend to be slightly brighter than average humans, so the hero can show off when he/she beats them.
It's all good,
GGG
You see, I'm just the opposite, but probably because I never saw the whole White Kingodm thing. I've heard about it before, and I thought it a fascinating subject. It reminds me of the ghouls in the Dream Lands written of by Lovecraft and expanded on by Brian Lumely. I love that stuff.
I, personally, whooped with joy when I saw that the True Ghoul had returned. I no longer have that issue, but I remember loving the "Ecology of the True Ghoul" so much, all those years ago. (The Dungeon tie-in? Not so much. I thought the last fights were pretty sadistic. I know, that was probably the point, but I couldn't see running it back then.)
Yes, the concept was indeed fascinating- As I recall, they had the power to turn others immideately into True Ghouls, with an apparent retention of class levels... But I think this was all before Ghoul Fever. Now, the True Ghoul is a Ghoul... Just... Truer, I guess. :)
In all seriousness though, It's great to have some 3e stats for these guys. I actually had at least one campaign idea that could make use of the legendary White Kingdom. To see them back just warms my heart.
And as for the 10 INT... Okay, mabye that was an overseight, but you must recall that the stats are just for the average specimen. The normal Ghoul is controlled by his hunger. The True Ghoul is not. The normal Ghoul, at best, hunts in packs. The True Ghoul builds cities and forms armies. There is a great rift in how the creatures go about using the skills provided them.
And when you get right down to it... It really is just a game. If you're not sold on something, change it.
I am indeed happy to see the True Ghoul return. This is why I buy Dungeon month after month- Sometimes, it really impresses me with "New Monsters" alone. Credit and respect to Baur for bringing back a forgotten classic.
Who ever said that cultured and sophisticated people had high Charisma's? There are a lot of people who are extremely sophisticated, but absolute bores. Also, you can't create a sophisticated culture without brains. Of course, what I should be asking is why the highly Intelligent ghouls are feral?
I see what you're saying. . . but I guess for me, it would depend on how we're defining "sophisticated" and "cultured." I see Intelligence affecting culture by extending the mortal lifespan, makes life easier through technology or magic, and governing through legal complexites designed to promote fairness or equality. These are cornerstones of human culture, but probably are not concerns of true ghouls.
However, if you are creating rules that are designed to relate to your station, define caste, promote social compexities that have no practical value such as "table manners" or "court etiquette," foster intrigue, trick a common polulation to serve the nobility, distribute resources based on the mores of fashion, promote artistic expression, drum up support for war, and so on. . . you need Charisma.
As for the issue regarding Intelligent "feral" creatures, Triple GGG (Matt) probably said it best. I guess I just think that a pack of feral hunters trying to avoid destruction in a human world need intelligence more than a ghoul in the safety of the White Kingdom, who runs packages and notes back and forth to his noble masters all day.
Kobold Press
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For once, it's not about my fascination with ghouls. It's about Erik Mona's fascination with ghouls.
The Adventure Path stuff is scripted pretty tightly, for obvious reasons. To keep the series consistent, monsters and plot points are all set or approved by the Paizo staff. In this case, Erik asked me to replace the vampire I wanted for "Gathering of Winds" with the true ghoul.
I was flattered that he asked for a 3E ghoul update, and I wasn't hard to convince. Presto, there's the true ghoul NPC and stats. If you don't like them, I'd say substitute some vampire sorcerer stats instead.
Creative Director
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Yup; this is one time that the ghouls aren't Wolf's fault. The main reason we had him change the vampire into something else should be obvious by the fact that we just finished doing a 3-part campaign arc that heavilly featured vampires; we were vampired-out at Paizo, and since there's a fairly prominent vampire coming up in the Age of Worms, we wanted something else. Since it was Wolf, and the encounter was a portal to the Underdark... bringing back the true ghoul seemed like a no-brainer.
As for them being more civilized than standard ghouls; this is certainly still the case. The capacity to be civilized may be held in intelligence, but really it's Charisma that pushes and enhances civilization. There's plenty of examples of uncivilized monsters in the Monster Manual that aren't civilized (delvers, invisible stalkers, kraken, most of the fey, nagas, phasms, and will-o'-wisps). Plus... at an average Intelligence of 10, true ghouls are right there with elves, humans, and every other PHB race.
Everybody has made some excellent points when it comes to answering the question about the true ghouls inferior Intelligence, but I'd like to retort:
1. I think the wolf pack analogy to describe ghouls is incorrect. There is nothing to say in the ghouls description that they are pack hunters (not naturally anyway). Whether they agree to hunt in packs is up to individual ghouls (there is strength in numbers).
2. Charisma may drive people to accomplish things, but its Intelligence that gives you the tools and resources to become civilized. And lets not forget the Wisdom to try new things and explore new possibilities.
3. Actually, most fey have very high Charisma's, and creatures like nagas and krakens are just as Charismatic as they are Intelligent. Hell if Charisma made the human race what it is today umber hulks should at least have a civilization (at the moment they are relegated to being laborers or guards for mind flayers and beholders).
4. Really, this argument is mute because if I start questioning the statistics of monsters and races I'd explode from the pointlessness of it.
True ghouls should still have a better Intelligence!
So flip them.
So flip them.
Actually I would make the true ghouls Intelligence 15 and drop their Charisma by 2-3 points to compensate. I would also put a few skill points into skills like Bluff and Disguise as I think true ghouls should have the potential to pass for humans (I know that runs counter to the Charisma drop, but hell they can't have it too good). I think these changes are manageable since true ghouls were once normal ghouls who evolved.
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...at an average Intelligence of 10, true ghouls are right there with elves, humans, and every other PHB race...
The point here is the stats presented for the True Ghoul are the "typical" stats. The apex of the bell curve. If a DM feels that a "cell" of True Ghouls are more intelligent, bumping the acme up to 15, that DM ought to also consider dropping the acme of another stat down an equal amount, say Strength of 14.
Typical stats will also be altered by applying metagaming enhancements to the True Ghoul "template". Compare the Marquis of Ravenstone to the "base" stats.
I like the logic people have put forward on the Int vs. Chr comparison for the "base" True Ghoul. If the "base" is altered, have similar logic to explain the departure from the norm.
About four years ago I posted my own conversion of a true ghoul template. (Weirdly, true ghouls never seem to have been given a full Second Edition write-up.) Anyway, several people over at EnWorld evidently liked that conversion and used it in their home games. I've recently updated this template for 3.5e, and it might be of interest to folks looking for something a little closer to the 2e incarnation:
In Libris Mortis they have the new undead traits of hungers and appetites, if I remember correctly ghouls have an Inescapable Craving for flesh. It's a pretty cool rule variant and would go a long way to explain the difference between a True Ghoul and a ghoul.
The regular ghouls are intelligent but generally have their mouths too full to conduct a lucid conversation. ;)
at an average Intelligence of 10, true ghouls are right there with elves, humans, and every other PHB race.But then why are normal ghouls higher intelligence??? They should be at Int 7 or something.
The conversation's lapped itself. To quote myself from eleven posts ago....
As Chris said probably, the same reasons wolves are so intelligent and dogs not so much. Also one usually finds the typical ghoul running in a small pack whereas the true ghouls live in a city hence the bell curve has several more drop dead (pardon the pun) morons as well as some brilliant brain vivisectionists. Also humans on average rank a 10 in the game and are doing pretty well, which brings me to my last point; it's game: if it bothers you just change it. Make it an average of 22, and drop some of the extra skill points in Ride so they can ride their Large, fiendish, two-headed, winged, dryad liches into combat against the deadly anthropomorphic, gaseous, baleen whale oozes that live in the clouds of Celestia. There are tons of "uncivilized" hyper-intelligent wunderkins in D&D sort of like in Call of Cthulhu where you never want to play chess with a dark young, for many reasons the least of which is probably the fact it has a huge Int score. Actually a lot of intelligent monsters in fantasy and sci-fi (hags, fallen alien races, demons, genies) tend to be slightly brighter than average humans, so the hero can show off when he/she beats them.
It's all good,
GGG
GGG
examples of uncivilized monsters in the Monster Manual that aren't civilized
I can't believe nobody gave Jacobs grief about this.