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Good discussion to bring up! I'm surprised that they hasn't been a more concrete outlining of the Council. I can understand how they want to leave some of it up for others to fill in - especially for creators of the earlier adventures, as well as for DMs. But still, it is odd the so much about the Council (and even the Children of Westcrown) is side fluff.

In my game, the Council of Thieves underwent an upheaval just like Cheliax did when Aroden died. More powerful members followed the crown to Egorian, and less powerful members were snuffed out or supported the new members who took over. Also, they changed their name to the Treasury.... maybe the Twilight Treasury (haven't had to pin down a name yet since the players haven't come across the name yet but just came up with that one and kinda like it). Because in a sense, it's a new organization, but also because it would be a bit silly to keep using the a name that people already know while trying to be secretive.

Anyway, I thought that all the powerful non-good Noble Houses were members of the Council. And the families beholden to them may or may not be in the Council too but not as top members. But I suppose that doesn't have to be the case. It would be interesting if some families beholden to Council houses weren't part of it, and if some families beholden to non-Council houses were in it!

In the 6th book, I think it talks about how the heads of all the noble houses in the Council were assassinated, and one of them is Duxotar Ilthus Mhartis, which isn't a top house but a beholden family. Also, I went through the books and tried to make a list of everyone officially connected to the Council - even members that are dead (or undead) when the PCs encounter them.

The formatting won't work here, but I'll do my best to try and make this list comprehensible. It basically lists people underneath the higher-ups to which they report. Someone with 3 dashes (---) reports to the person above them with 2 dashes (--), and someone with 2 dashes (--) reports to the person above them with 1 dash (-). Don't quite remember who the people at Walcourt report to...maybe Ilnerik?

COUNCIL OF THIEVES

House Drovenge (Taldan) – Imvius, Lorialn, Xerysis

- Vassindio Drovenge (LE Ari14) (LOYALIST)

-- Jalki (NE Rog4 - human male - LOYALIST)

- Sidonai (son of Vass, father of Cha+Ecc)

- Chammady & Eccardian
-- Crosael Simiin Rasdovain (LE Brd9 - tiefling female)
-- Sian Daemodus (LE Rog5/Sha3 - tiefling female)
-- Zol (LE Brb1/Mnk10 - half-orc male - CLEANER)
-- Ilnerik Sivanshin: Lord of Shadows (CE Brd7/Rog3/Chr3 - hale-elf vampire male)
---Father Jair (NE Clr6 Norgorber - human vampire male)
---Vashian: The Mazeflesh Man (CE Ftr6 - Varisian human vampire male)
---Vahnwynne Malkistra (LE Ran4/Rog2 - elf vampire female)
---Jerusen (NE Rog8 - human vampire male)
---Shadow Lord (Nihiloi)
---Silana (CE Sor8 – human vampire female)
---Irimeian (devourer - Sunset Gate)
--- Palaveen (advanced morgh), Dravano, Ostengo, Vethamer (morgh x3) – Cader Boneyard
--- Thesing (CE Rog7/Exp3 - human vampire male)
--- Signifier Ara Verennie (LE Sor11 - human ghost female)
-- Avahzi Serafian (LE Clr7/Dia2 Mammon - elf female)
---Novankia (LE imp female - companion)
---Lozendi (Rog - ?? - killed by erinyes in Book 4)
---Aberten Vittershins: The Dealer (NE Sor7/Har3 - halfling male)
-- Maglin (LE Rog7/Ass3 - human male)
-- Kruthe the Hammer (NE Ftr8 - human ogrekin male)
-- Stiglor (NE Ran10 - human male - ex-dottari)
-- Cervesi (NE Rog8/Ass3 - human female – Council captain)
-- Blacknapes (CE Ftr4/Rog2 – human) x8
-- Skarx Veskandi (LE Mnk12 - tiefling female)
---Naxess (imp male)
---Vexess (imp female)
-- Melavengian (LE Clr7 Mammon - barbed devil)
---erinyes x4 (slave barge)
---bearded devils x6 + hellcats x2 (hunting down nobles)
---Belessima (shaitan genie female)
-- Liebdaga the Twin
---Nyxervex (bone devil)
----Isavenda (erinyes)

Walcourt: --Ophal (ogre mage female)
--Dark Creeper Footpads
--Dark Stalker Guildsmen
--Manus Undiomede (morgh - ex-guildmaster)
--Sandor the Strange (CE Wiz12 diviner - human male)

* * * * *
House Oberigo (Chelish) – Aulamaxa, Ghival
- Eirtein (LOYALIST)

House Salsifer (Chelish) - Chillarth, Rustachas

House Arvanxi (Chelish) – Mhartis, Ciucci, Rasdovain
- Aberian

House Julistarc (Taldan) – Seidraith, Cemaine

House Khollarix (Chelish) – Nymmis, Rufano
* * * * *

I'm hoping this list will help me introduce some members to the PCs earlier in the game, especially the ones that are dead or undead when the PCs encounter them. For example, they just met Signifier Ara at the Cornucopia where she represented the Church of Asmodeus (but they also saw her in Hellknight garb in the Six Trials audience). She happened to take a particular interest in one of the PCs who is an ex-member of the Church and now worships Cayden. He was semi-powerful in the Church but lost his abilities when he turned his back on Asmodeus.

I am tweaking parts of the Asmodean Knot and am hoping to get feedback others who have ran or played it already. Our group only has 3 players, so I gave them the option of starting with an extra NPC level or extra gold to give them a boost. Also, I added a few extra encounters/challenges, some of which I didn't expect them to fully defeat, so they've wound up even more ahead of the curve (which didn't prevent one PC death during the play). The PCs are:

Ftr4/Brb1/War1 with a focus on sunder and adamantine lucrene hammer
Alch5/Exp1
Clr5 (about to level up) with Wisdom 23 from starting middle-aged

1. Grey Metal Entry Doors

2. Elandriu

3. Entry Hall Alcoves

4. Howlers

There is more, but this seems like plenty for one post.

I agree that the Command Undead feat and Control Undead spell let you make undead do anything they are capable of doing. A mindless skeleton could not do a complex task, but there is nothing that indicates a vampire would resist stepping into daylight.

The feat has no duration. It lasts forever, but intelligent undead get a new save each day, as others have pointed out. You also have a limit to the HD you can control with the feat. Whereas, the spell only lasts a short while, but you can cast it on as many undead as you have castings. I always took that to be the trade-off. You can have a few forever with the feat or lots for a little while with the spell.

Donning a shield takes "one move action". Does that mean donning a shield that you're otherwise holding in your hand, or donning a shield that's stowed on your back?

That is, if you've got your shield stowed in the standard way, does it take one move action to unstow it, and another to strap it to your arm, or one move action to move it from your back to "in use"?

I think part of the confusion is due to poor wording, in the sense that the rules use different and nontechnical words to say the same thing. My group had been playing this incorrectly for years until I noticed this question raised on this thread last year.

Ready or Drop a Shield

Strapping a shield to your arm to gain its shield bonus to your AC, or unstrapping and dropping a shield so you can use your shield hand for another purpose, requires a move action. If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you can ready or drop a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.

Dropping a carried (but not worn) shield is a free action.

Strapping on or unstrapping the shield is a move action.

If you have a BAB +1 or higher, you can ready (strap) or drop (unstrap) a shield as a free action combined with a regular move.
*I don't know why they change the wording from strap to ready/drop.
**I believe the part about dropping the shield as a free action is actually two free actions: #1 - unstrap shield, #2 - drop item.

It also notes that there is a distinction between carrying vs wearing a shield.
*Carry isn't much of a technical term either, and carrying an item in your hand is much different than carrying it on your pack (which requires a move action to retrieve).

I believe this is how it works if you start out with a shield on your back or pack:
1) Retrieve item (move action - shield is now carried)
2) Strap/ready shield (move action - shield now grants AC bonus)
= 2 move actions

or

1) Retrieve item (move action - shield is now carried)
2) Move (move action)
3) Strap/ready shield while moving (free action - shield now grants AC bonus)
= 2 move actions + 1 free action

And once your shield is strapped on, this is what you can do to take it off:
1) Unstrap/remove shield (move action - no shield bonus)
2) Store item (move action - shield on back)
= 2 move actions

or

1) Move (move action)
2) Unstrap/remove shield while moving (free action - no shield bonus)
3) Store item (move action - shield on back)
= 2 move actions and 1 free action

or

1) Move (move action)
2) Unstrap/remove shield while moving (free action - no shield bonus)
3) Drop item (free action - shield on ground)
= 1 move action and 2 free actions

I encountered this situation as a DM and couldn't find ANYTHING about it. If a PC is under the effect of a fly spell, but has landed on the ground 1) can she be tripped [normally creatures that don't use wings to fly can't be tripped in the air] and 2) if the PC is knocked prone can she start to fly without standing up and thus avoid an attack of opportunity?

I was thinking about this today and do agree with the other responders but thought about something else.

This is probably RAI because it is not covered in the actual rules, but I could see how someone who is knocked prone while using the fly spell could fly away and still be prone. You would provoke an attack of opportunity if you moved out of a threatened square... but not for standing up because you didn't stand up... so you would still be prone but flying (aka. superman style) and still subject to the modifiers that go along with being prone.

If you want to fine tune this further, you could be considered not prone against creatures directly below you. Also, you could probably use a bow while prone if you are off the ground since it would no longer be in the way.

I just want to make sure I have this right...

The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Magic armor, magic weapons, rings, rods, and wondrous items can be created without knowing the prerequisite spells. You just need to have the appropriate feat, and you add +5 to the DC for each prerequisite spell that you do not know.

A scroll cannot be created without the knowing the spell because it is a spell-completion item, AND the Creating Scrolls section also states that the spell must be prepared (or known for a bard or sorcerer).

A staff or wand cannot be created without knowing the spell(s) because they are spell-trigger items, AND the Created Staves and Creating Wands sections also state that the spell(s) must be prepared (or known for a bard or sorcerer).

A potion is not a spell-trigger or spell-completion item, BUT it cannot be created without know the spell because the Creating Potions section states that the spell must be prepared (or known for a bard or sorcerer).

Is all this correct?

There are various spells that can be used to control undead, but animate dead states that undead under the control of this spell can only do two things:

This spell turns corpses into undead skeletons or zombies that obey your spoken commands.

The undead can be made to follow you, or they can be made to remain in an area and attack any creature (or just a specific kind of creature) entering the place. They remain animated until they are destroyed. A destroyed skeleton or zombie can't be animated again.

1) Follow you - I take this to mean that the undead will move toward you, and if you move, it will follow you. But it can't scout ahead and won't move away from you (unless moving away to attack, as per the second command).

2) Attack any (or just a specific kind of) creature in an area - The attacking any creature part is pretty clear cut. You tell it to attack, it attacks the nearest creature. Although, I assume that the undead will not attack you. Also, if you tell the undead to attack, but it cannot sense the creature, the undead doesn't do anything...it just stands there. Now the part about attacking a specific kind of creature seems a bit contradictory for a mindless undead. How can it tell the difference between a human and a half-elf? How about a horse and a unicorn? Even the term "kind" doesn't seem to be a standard term from the book like "type" or "subtype," but I wouldn't imagine that a skeleton or zombie could automatically differentiate between an animal and a magical beast anyway. Therefore, I've just been handling the "specific kind" portion based on DM discretion.

Since the undead are created and controlled via magic, I have allowed the undead to automatically know which commands are meant for them. So, the necromancer can say "attack elves" once and have that command apply to as many or as few undead (under his control from animate dead) as he wants, and the rest of the undead will not attack elves. He could order the rest of the undead to "attack dwarves" or follow him.

However, as his undead army grows in size, I am thinking about limiting the amount of commands that can be given in a single round.

The command has to be spoken, and speaking is a free action, but there are limits to even free actions. Telling one undead to follow and another to attack seems easy enough, but telling ten different undead to attack ten different kinds of creatures seems like too much of a mouthful for one round.

Since the commands are simple and short, I was thinking of having each command require 1 second of time, so up to 6 commands can be given in a round. These commands can be given while doing anything else, except tasks that require speech. Along those lines, if the necromancer casts a spell with a verbal component, it requires a standard action - which is half his turn - and only leaves 3 seconds left for commands. A spell with a verbal component that requires a full-round action or 1 round to cast would leave no time for commands. And normally, since speaking is a free action, it can be done when it is not your turn, but this would defeat the purpose of the limit and/or complicate what happens if the necromancer gives several commands before his turn and then wants to cast a spell, so commands can only be given on his turn. Thoughts?

There is a sorcerer in my game that sometimes turn invisible, and this is how I handle it. The info below includes a house rule that allows a caster to target an invisible creature with an area effect with a +10 modifier to Perception, instead of the +20 modifier to pinpoint a square. Also, I posted this info before the errata correction came out, but I think my adjustment does the same thing as the errata.

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Invisibility is a lengthy section, so I'm just going to include the points I find most relevant.

The ability to move about unseen is not foolproof. While they can't be seen, invisible creatures can be heard, smelled, or felt.

Invisibility makes a creature undetectable by vision, including darkvision.

Invisibility does not, by itself, make a creature immune to critical hits, but it does make the creature immune to extra damage from being a ranger's favored enemy and from sneak attacks.

A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check. Even once a character has pinpointed the square that contains an invisible creature, the creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). There are a number of modifiers that can be applied to this DC if the invisible creature is moving or engaged in a noisy activity.

If an invisible creature is doing anything within 30 ft besides standing still, it can be noticed with a DC 20 Perception check. Pinpointing the exact location increases the DC by +20, so a DC 40 Perception check allows you to target the square of an active invisible creature. There is also a house rule that allows you to notice the general area of a creature with a +10 modifier, so a DC 30 Perception check allows you to target an active invisible creature with an area effect (i.e. fireball, channel energy, etc). But the invisible creature still has total concealment, so attack rolls have a 50% miss chance and spells that require you to see the creature would not work (i.e. magic missile requires a target, but scorching ray does not - it creates a ray, which in turn, can be shot wherever you want).

All this being said, many actions modify the Perception check DC. The following chart is taken from the book, and I have included modified DCs based off the DC 20 to notice an active invisible creature within 30 ft.

Invisible creature is...Perception

In combat or speaking: -20 = DC 0
Moving at half speed: -5 = DC 15
Moving at full speed: -10 = DC 10
Running or charging: -20 = DC 0
Not moving: -40 (typo??)
Using Stealth: Stealth check +20
Some distance away: +1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle (door): +5
Behind an obstacle (stone wall): +15

Quote:

To recap, the base check is Perception DC 20 to notice an active invisible creature within 30 ft, +20 to pinpoint the square (DC 40), or +10 to target with an area effect (DC 30). Adding the above modifiers means...

Combat, speaking (i.e. casting spell with verbal component), charging or running impose a -20 penalty, so it becomes Perception DC 0 to notice activity within 30 ft, DC 20 to pinpoint the square, or DC 10 to target with an area effect.

Moving at half-speed imposes a -5 penalty, so it becomes Perception DC 15 to notice activity within 30 ft, DC 35 to pinpoint the square, or DC 25 to target with an area effect. This could be good to do if you have a terrible Stealth modifier but want to be just move around somewhat sneaky.

Moving at full speed imposes a -10 penalty, so it becomes Perception DC 10 to notice invisible activity within 30 ft, DC 30 to pinpoint the square, or DC 20 to target with an area effect.

The "Not moving" line seems incorrect. It make more sense that the DC should go down when immobile, and the Stealth skill does note that when invisible, being immobile gives a +40 bonus to Stealth checks, and the bonus is +20 while moving. It seems like being immobile increases invisible sneakiness by +20, so applying the same increase here gives Perception DC 40 to notice an immobile invisible creature within 30 ft, DC 60 to pinpoint the square, or DC 50 to target with an area effect.

When using Stealth, the Perception DC is Stealth check +20, and making a Stealth check requires moving at half-speed. Or you can move at more than half-speed but less than full speed with a -5 penalty (i.e. Stealth check +15). Also, being immobile while invisible is Stealth check +40. If you make a Stealth check of 17, the Perception DC would be DC 37 to notice you within 30 ft, DC 57 to pinpoint the square, or DC 47 to target with an area effect.

All these DCs are to notice an active invisible creature within 30 ft. Beyond that, the DC increases by +1 per 10 ft.

I am running a campaign set during wartime. There is a fair rate of PC death and retirement, so the current party isn't the same as when it started. One of the current PCs is a necromancer who is slowly building up a small undead army of skeletons he animates and zombies he controls with other spells and the Command Undead feat. I have a few questions, which may not all be explained in the rules, so opinions on hazy subjects are also welcome.

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1) Onyx

Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)

The description seems to clearly indicate this requires a single gem. I hadn't bothered paying so much attention to this detail when an earlier PC bought a wand of animate dead with one charge, so I allowed him to simply provide a total amount of gems that add up to the necessary value (i.e. use two 25 gp onyx to animate a 2 HD creature instead of one 50 gp onyx). Now here are the questions:

A) Did I handle the onyx value incorrectly? Does it have to be a single gem? As opposed to multiple gems that add up to proper amount? This answer may or may not affect questions C and D.

B) How can you know the HD of a creature? The Knowledge skill does ay this, "Identify a monster's abilities and weaknesses: DC 10 + monster's CR." I'm actually just realizing that you add the CR to the base DC of 10. I had thought is was DC 10 + monster's HD. Anyway, should it be DC 10 + CR + HD to determine the HD of a creature? And this is related to questions C and D...

C) What happens if an undervalued onyx is used? If the value is too low, does the spell simply fail? Or does the onyx get used up too? The answer to this would probably be the same regardless of whether the one gem or multiple gem rule applies.

D) What happens if an overvalued onyx is used? If you use a 100 gp onyx for a 2 HD creature (only needs 50 gp), is half the onyx left after the casting, or does it all get used up? How about if multiple gem are used...if you use four 25 gp onyx (100 gp total) in the casting for a 2 HD creature (50 gp needed), do all four onyx get used up or will the extra 2 be leftover? One reason I wonder about this is because some spells require an exact amount for a valuable material component, but others (such as animate dead) say "at least" so it makes me wonder if the spell will use up as much as you put into it, regardless of need.

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2) HD limit for control

Regardless of the type of undead you create with this spell, you can't create more HD of undead than twice your caster level with a single casting of animate dead. The desecrate spell doubles this limit.

The undead you create remain under your control indefinitely. No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled. You choose which creatures are released. Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit.

I understand that a 10th-level Wizard can normally animate up to 20 HD of undead with a single casting and can normally control a total of 40 HD with this spell. What about control from other spells?

The reason I ask is that this spell specifically names the Command Undead feat as being a separate limit for controlling undead, so that feat is like an exception to the standard limit. So, I wonder if this means that other methods of control are not exceptions?

What about the command undead spell? This is a 2nd-level spell that targets 1 undead creature but has no limit on the HD of the creature that can be affected, and it has a duration of 1 day/level. A 10th-level necromancer has a minimum of 12 spell slots between 2nd-level and 5th-level, so if he used all of them for command undead, does that mean he could have 12 undead (of any HD) under his control for 10 days in addition to the 40 HD of skeletons from animate undead?