machii's page

machii wrote:

David knott 242 wrote:

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

The way I interpret the Variant Mutliclassing is that the secondary, variant class is acquired as first level in that respective class, but cannot advance additional levels past level 1. This is supported by the official text included with Variant Multiclassing:

"such as a barbarian whose rage stems from being afflicted by the gods with an oracle’s curse and revelations."
Oracle's only gain a curse at level 1; therefore, Variant Multiclassing must count the secondary variant as level 1.
If secondary variant's weren't counted as having a level they would for the most part only be good for acquiring weapon and armor proficiencies as most all class features have level 1 as a prerequisite.

That is really not how it works! When you get a class ability from a class has absolutely no relevance as to when VMC grants you an ability.

You count as your VMC class, but you don't have levels in it. You only have effective levels in your VMC class when it tells you you do and only for the purpose it tells you it does.

You're completely correct.

What's funny is that I never bothered to look at the Variant, Secondary Class Features table provided and based my logic solely from the Text description of Variant Multiclassing.

Not really sure how I feel about Variant multiclassing anymore. I get the balance, but it still seems quite overpowered.

machii wrote:

UnArcaneElection wrote:

Another way to get Weapon Training (and thus qualify for Advanced Weapon Training) is to use Variant Multiclassing, selecting Fighter as your secondary class. This consumes **5** feats at fixed levels, so make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot with respect to feats before trying this. Also, it takes quite a while to get online.

At level 3, instead of a feat you get Bravery. Not great, but not totally useless.

At levels 7 and 15, instead of feats, you get Armor Training.

At levels 11 and 19, instead of feats, you get Weapon Training.

This can also work for classes other than Warpriest, although in many cases you will end up even more feat-starved (Warpriest at least gives some Bonus Feats), and again it still takes a long time to come online. The benefits even stack if your primary class also has Armor and/or Weapon Training (for instance, Myrmidarch Magus or Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest).

So Variant Multi-classing is something that is commonly misunderstood. Variant Multi-classing is not intended to award levels in the secondary class. It only states that it awards class features. While it doesn't exactly state 'variant classing does not award primary class levels to both primary and secondary class' it does state:

"It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing, but it’s possible for the two systems to be used together. In a game using both systems, a character can’t take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant."

This supports the logic that in a game where both systems are used, placing levels into the secondary, variant class does not also award levels to the Primary class. If placing levels into the Primary Variant also awarded levels to the Secondary Variant players could simply level the secondary by targeting levels to the primary; thus, Primary, Variant levels do not ever award levels to Secondary, Variant classes.

What are you trying to say?

I'm saying that the official rules address the principle of Variant Secondary Classes as not receiving levels past level 1, ever.

"In a game using both systems, a character can’t take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant"

The official rules include the previously mentioned clause to keep players from circumventing levels into a Variant, Secondary Class while combining both Standard and Variant Multiclassing methods of advancement. If Variant, Secondary Classes are not meant to receive levels past 1, as the clause indicates, it would also have to be intended that levels attributed to Primary Classes do not count toward Variant, Secondary Class level either; otherwise, one could simply circumvent the clause by increasing their Primary Class Level, which would defeat the entire purpose of the Clause's existence.

Because of this, a Variant, Secondary Fighter Class can never benefit from Bravery, or any other Fighter Class Feature that requires a Fighter level greater than 1 as a prerequisite.

well this could be looked at multiple ways 1st lets say they have a fighter level equal to their character level, 2nd the bravery ability scales at character lvl-1 so fighter level would be character level -1 and last lets say that the character would count as a character of that class for the minimum lvl needed to acquire those abilities so for a fighter so lvl 2 fighter for lvl 3, lvl 3 fighter at level 7, lvl 5 at level 11, level 7 at level 15 and level 9 at level 19

With respect, at that point you're making up rules. Trading a single feat for a level 19 class feature is incredibly unbalanced.

You would meet the qualification of "Fighter" but not "Fighter 1st level", "Fighter 4th level", etc.

The way I interpret the Variant Mutliclassing is that the secondary, variant class is acquired as first level in that respective class, but cannot advance additional levels past level 1. This is supported by the official text included with Variant Multiclassing:

"such as a barbarian whose rage stems from being afflicted by the gods with an oracle’s curse and revelations."
Oracle's only gain a curse at level 1; therefore, Variant Multiclassing must count the secondary variant as level 1.
If secondary variant's weren't counted as having a level they would for the most part only be good for acquiring weapon and armor proficiencies as most all class features have level 1 as a prerequisite.

Another way to get Weapon Training (and thus qualify for Advanced Weapon Training) is to use Variant Multiclassing, selecting Fighter as your secondary class. This consumes **5** feats at fixed levels, so make sure you don't shoot yourself in the foot with respect to feats before trying this. Also, it takes quite a while to get online.

At level 3, instead of a feat you get Bravery. Not great, but not totally useless.

At levels 7 and 15, instead of feats, you get Armor Training.

At levels 11 and 19, instead of feats, you get Weapon Training.

This can also work for classes other than Warpriest, although in many cases you will end up even more feat-starved (Warpriest at least gives some Bonus Feats), and again it still takes a long time to come online. The benefits even stack if your primary class also has Armor and/or Weapon Training (for instance, Myrmidarch Magus or Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest).

So Variant Multi-classing is something that is commonly misunderstood. Variant Multi-classing is not intended to award levels in the secondary class. It only states that it awards class features. While it doesn't exactly state 'variant classing does not award primary class levels to both primary and secondary class' it does state:

"It is probably a good idea to use either this variant system or normal multiclassing, but it’s possible for the two systems to be used together. In a game using both systems, a character can’t take levels in the secondary class she gains from this variant."

This supports the logic that in a game where both systems are used, placing levels into the secondary, variant class does not also award levels to the Primary class. If placing levels into the Primary Variant also awarded levels to the Secondary Variant players could simply level the secondary by targeting levels to the primary; thus, Primary, Variant levels do not ever award levels to Secondary, Variant classes.