Ummmmm ya I can see your point, however at this point in time especially if it has happened before to the summoner he would have prepared banishment scrolls or spells himself, which if he doesn't get he should get. My point being is to counter a banishment spell as long as the summoner's spell casting skill allows him to see a banish coming he can counter the spell.
You're talking about wandering around with a HUGE TENTACLE MONSTER. The earth shakes when it walks. Entire villages run screaming in terror as you approach. Local lords muster the militia when your party is three days out of town to fight off the "demon tentacle beast". Wizards wander into taverns, seeking adventurers to help slay the "tentacle terror". Japanese schoolgirls run about in inexplicable short uniforms. You cannot in any way expect to be subtle with this kind of pet. Your enemies will know it's coming, and make plans to counter it. Banishment is only one way. And a 3rd level rogue can do it.
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
The too big for a dungeon ya I can see that buy you know I hardly ever go down into dungeons so to speak and if the summoner did well there are spells to reduce his size.
Yes. And these spells will also reduce his strength, and ergo, effectiveness.
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
As far as hiding a huge creature like that? Umm what about invisibility? That is a rather easy spell to have thrown on a per by a friend..
Invis last 20 minutes per cast. And it does nothing to silence your pet (which as mentioned above, shakes the ground as it walks, and leaves behind footprints a foot deep). This pet fails at subtle.
ItoSaithWebb wrote:
However, this does make life harder for a summoner and does show an obvious weak spot. Personally I do think that it should be that easy to banish an eidolon because of how unique and...
It's a tradeoff. Sure, you can run around with your huge tentacle beast with 70+ STR, smashing the beejeezus out of the average encounter, making the rest of your party feel redundant, and acting like a jerk. But your DM has the option of shutting you down with a single spell. Maybe if you don't muchkin the hell out of your Eidolon, and make something with flavour and utility instead of an OMGWTFSTRBBQ Huge Tentacle Beast of Doom, your DM won't be inclined to punk you with a single spell.
OK, while I can't play test ATM because of holiday schedules I can play around builds.
Huge pets don't make for great dungeoneering companions.
That aside, your lvl 20 BBEG is going to see this monstrosity approaching from three continents away, and Banish/Gate it out of existence at his first opportunity. :)
I've been running this guy for a couple of sessions now, with similar strats in combat. Thought I'd share my experiences:
Lodin, lvl 5 Summoner
Spoiler:
STR 10, DEX 14, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 19 (28 point stat buy)
AC 16 (mithral shirt) HP 46
Key skills: Diplomacy 9, Perception 5, Spellcraft 10, UMD 9
Feats: Imp Init,Toughness, Combat Casting, Spell Focus: Conjuration (anticipating Aug Summoning next feat)
Cinder, lvl 5 Eidolon (red dragon form)
Spoiler:
STR 17, DEX 16, CON 13, INT 7, WIS 10, CHA 11
Quadruped
AC 19, HP 37
Evolutions: Claws, Flight, Energy Attack (fire), Pounce, Trip, Tail
Standard combat actions seem to be
1. Summon d3 Elementals (who serve as diversions/shields, essentially). Send Eidolon to attack.
2. Haste party
3. Cast invisibility
4. Battlefield controls (grease, re-summons)
We're playing with the 1 SLA summons at a time rule, but kept the minute per level and standard action rule.
1 SLA is definitely necessary. I've deliberately kept Summon Monster off my spell list, so the field isn't swarmed by small and largely ineffectual meat shields. A player who doesn't excercise this judgement could be a headache for DMs - nothing that a Druid can't do already, however.
1 minute per level allows summons to be used as longer duration scouts, and allows a little more versatility in their usage. I think this is a positive feature, not really advantageous in combat at all, but gives the Summoner some flexibility.
Standard Action Summons - haven't really played a huge role, as the 1 minute per level and the nature of our encounters thus far means I usually have my elemental goon squad up and running before the fight kicks off.
The Eidolon serves as dual tank, along with the party's paladin. We also run with a rogue, ranger (archer build) and cleric. Big E's damage output is good (bad rolls aside), the Energy Attacks evolution is very strong for 2 points - I'd suggest it be toned down by making it purchased for each group of attacks (claw/bite/tail,etc), 2 evo points per buy, or by matchign the EA dice to be no more than the attack it keys off (so, +d4 for claws).
Our Hps are generated thusly - max 1st level, then half/half +1 alternating each lvl after that. Resulting hp for Big E isn't great, but his AC while buffed with Haste and an extended Mage Armour is 24 - higher than our Pally. Unbuffed he's 19, which is decent for a tank - I'm not sure toning down E's AC would be a great move, and would likely reduce their tanking effectiveness dramatically. (yes I took Mage Armour, purely for big E, which some might view as a "wasted spell slot", making the need for base E AC even more pronounced).
In roleplaying terms, big E is pretty much never allowed into cities (he circles above) cutting down my effectiveness in any urban encounter dramatically, but I feel this is a fair trade off for the cool factor of having a "Dragon" for a pet outside town. I think any DM who allows monstrous E's into town without drama are probably doing it wrong :P
My Summoner's personal effectiveness in battles is limited mainly to casting Grease and renewing summons whilst staying Invisible - battlefield control, which is the role I wanted to play. IMO (and certainly my DM's) Intelligent monsters are going to work out pretty quick that the weedy (yet dashingly handsome) little mage guy shooting crossbow bolts at the back of the group has something to do with the fricken DRAGON eating up the frontlines (they have big matching glowy symbols on their foreheads, afterall) and annihilate him otherwise. Again, any DM who allows Bozo the Crossbow wielding summoner to be peppering his NPCs from a nice safe distance while Big E rips sh*t up center stage is probably doing it wrong. :P
I roll all attack and dmg dice simultaneously (colour coded for my convenience) - my turns don't take longer than anyone else's.
The Summoner feels like a very useful party member, upping everyone's dmg output (haste), saving squishies from reasonable amounts of dmg (summons soaking up hits before popping) while dealing out decent dmg on the frontline (via Big E).
I'd definitely put the class at one of the strongest in the game at this level. Bad DMs (allowing Summoners to operate unmolested in plain view on the rear line)and munchkin players (if your Big E has 20+ tentacles and nothing else, resembling a giant, two legged irradiated sea anemone, you're being a twat) can certainly turn the class into something incredibly lame (as they can with Druids, Conjurers and Sorcs).
But that's not a problem with the class, is it?
All in all, a very fun class to play. It has a real flavour to it, feels like a class that was built to do a job (essentially, one of battlefield control), and it succeeds in doing it well.
And here is a loop hole to your suggestion - nothing is stopping players from going like this
You say there's nothing to stop players making a retarded multi-tentacle muchkin monstrosity with all the flavour of a three week old piece of chewing gum?
I keep my laptop on hand, connected to the Pathfinder SRD (Summon Monster Spell bookmarked). One mouse click and I have all the stats I need for whatever I summon (listed with basic stats as well as augmented blocks for your convenience!)
Coloured d20s matched with coloured damage dice, all rolled at once help a great deal too. Or, you can give one beastie to each player to control, so everyone feels involved.
This isn't a problem with the class, it's simply a player education issue.
The summoner is scary at any level. The eidolon its self can be as powerful as the party fighter especially with the summoner backing it up and the summoner isn't a slouch either especially with its spell list and abilities. Its like if a bard and a fighter teamed up in one character.
To me, the increase to Summon Durations doesn't make the Summoner any more powerful in combat. It simply allows him to get greater utility out of his summoned beasties, which makes sense, given that he's, you know, a summoner and all.
