Zaruthustran's page

A commonly-held belief is that D&D (and, by extension, PF) is at its best during levels 1-6. Any chance we'll see an Adventure Path that tells a complete narrative over six levels?

I'd like to see an option for a no-magic (or, no player/kingdom-created magic items) campaign.

Also, it'd be good to have a simple online tool that randomly-generated maps. Click, there's a region. Throw in some simple logic so forests tend to be next to forests but not next to desert, rivers sometimes form lakes, and so on. The whole thing should seed those random exceptional qualities (resources, ruins, and such) as well.

Ah yes, the dreaded Post Gobbler. After too many tears caused by encounters with that beast, I've gotten into the habit of hitting Ctrl-A Ctrl-C before clicking the "post" button. Just in case. :)

My thoughts on the 22 Encounter deficit is to just forget about them. Your players certainly won't miss them, and besides, on their own they'll probably stir up enough off-the-book trouble to more than make up the difference.

Also, thank you to Stewart Perkins for breaking down the adventures into 4E terms. Man, if you ever take the plunge and stat out individual encounters, you'll be my hero forever.

I started STAP two years ago, but paused the campaign before 4E came out--right after Vanthus attacks farshore. The players all loved the campaign and their characters but I had to take a break. So I told the players that two years will pass, and I asked them what they wanted their characters to accomplish over those two years. They then all rolled a d20 to determine their success. With Vanthus defeated and no immediate threats in evidence, most ended up back in Sasserine.

Now we're starting STAP up again. I explained away the massive edition changes (reworking of magic, new gods, new cosmology, diagonal of square = side of square when measured) as a worldwide cataclysm, complete with the stars shifting, magic items exploding or ceasing to function, most mages and clerics driven mad, all gnomes disappearing in a Rapture, etc. etc. In other words the edition change was In Game.

So, now worldwide civilization is destroyed. There are no more huge nations, because without magic items and high level NPCs (not to mention, no more instant transport & communication, or druidic magic bolstering crop yields) they've all been overrun by monsters. It's "Points of Light" from here on out: scattered city-states and other isolated holdouts of civilization. The Scarlet Brotherhood, with its reliance on unarmed combat, slave labor, and forts, was ideally suited to weather such changes--and is one of the few surviving political entities. The Crimson Fleet is another.

The party was in Sasserine at the time of the Change, and witnessed its destruction by fire, looting, and monster attack. The campaign picked up with them cutting their way through the throngs of panicking civilians and escaping on the Sea Wyvern, and then assembling the other surviving boats and leading them towards Farshore. It's a real "Battlestar Galactica meets Dies the Fire" kind of vibe, and the players love it. Especially because they get to re-visit all the points of interest from their initial journey down (though we're covering all that in one session, via an extended skill challenge).

Once back in Farshore, they'll discover that Vanthus's journal entry had washed ashore while they were gone. If they had waited around and been there when it was discovered, they might have realized that more--LOTS more--Shadow Pearls were being produced. They might have been able to prevent the cataclysm. Oops!

So, instead of trying to prevent the Tide, the players now have to try to take down Demogorgon before he fully reaps the benefit of his plan. There's also even more complications, but just in case my players ever see this, I'll stop this already-too-long post here. :)

I'll keep that in mind. You have to realize that when you post something like your original post, you're going to get wanted and unwanted replies. Chock mine up to the UNwanted replies. That's cool. If you're having fun, your players all like the changes and support it 100%, then that's all that matters. I just saw a lot of holes in using this approach to this AP, and still do. That doesn't matter, though. Having fun together with your players does. I can respect that.

It's all good. I appreciate all the feedback; it's got me thinking that in future editions of D&D Fly, Improved Invis, and Teleport should just be class features instead of spells. If they're that fundamental/necessary--if the game just doesn't work/can't work without them--then they're not really a choice, are they? Those abilities should just be given to every member of the class.

Kind of like how all clerics can heal, even if they don't prepare any healing spells.

I think I still stand by my recommendation of playing Iron Heroes (I think I erroneously called it Iron Kingdoms earlier) in lieu of the standard rule set, if thats the feel you want to achieve with the game.

I considered it, but none of the other players have played Iron Heroes. Too much trouble introducing a new ruleset and converting monsters.

I think drawing the line on what spells should and should not be allowed is a slippery slope; where do you draw the line?

Nobody mentioned Wind Walk - the divine spell that allows an entire party to fly long distances by becoming cloud-like. What about a persistant Air Walk or Fly spell? How about two Plane Shifts (less efficient and less exact, but still "gits 'er dun")?

Well, we draw the line at spells that break the spirit of what we're trying to accomplish. So spells that mimic the spells we cut would be likewise cut. No Wind Walk because there's no divine caster in the party, but that spell would probably apply. Point is, we've all agreed to try for a certain feel--the players are smart enough to recognize (and avoid) spells that break the "alone in the wilderness" vibe.

Looking ahead, though, at some point I think we'll have to add them back in. It does stretch credibility if the party sorcerer can turn the planet's oceans into Jello with a Wish and bind angels to his will but can't levitate himself. :) I like the earlier suggestion to just bump the spell level of the spells in question a bit. And allow the sorcerer to research them, if he wishes.

You know what I get the impression of, Stedd? I get the impression the DM wanted to make these changes, ran it by the group, probably had to do a lot of convincing, and in the end the players agreed to it, and have decided to make the best of it.

:) Thanks for the lol Steve. By the way, I also shot JFK and faked the moon landing. IT'S ALL A BIG CONSPIRACY!!! OH NOESS!!!!1!!

Seriously though, I don't game that way. This isn't a knee-jerk reaction to try to quell player ingenuity. It's an effort to impart a unique feel that fits the theme of the STAP. I believe the role of the DM is to provide entertainment to the players--I had what I thought is a fun idea, presented it to the players, we all talked about it and decided to give it a shot. Why not? It's our game. :)

We also made Raise Dead and similar magic an Epic spell, added Action Points to the game, added a bank of Reserve hit points characters can draw upon between battles, pushed back death so it occurs at -10 -level, and tweaked a few other things. We've all been playing 20+ years and many of us work at game companies. Trust me, we're all comfortable enough with ourselves to experiment a little bit.

Again: this is a collaborative decision to try for something other than stock D&D. What I'm wondering is, do certain encounters 100% REQUIRE those abilities? Of the ones Brent mentioned (and I appreciate the list), Sutolore was in a place with a 20' ceiling. The party had ranged attacks, and the ninja/swordsage has a good jump skill. The Vrocks could be a problem, but again: party has ranged attacks, and as Russ pointed out, the Dance can't be done in midair. Getting to the pirate ships will be a fun challenge. They can swim (some of the characters have Swim speeds), or perhaps summon porpoises and ride on them, or launch themselves on catapults, or sail out (powered by Feather Tokens) on ships while under a barrage of fire, or do any number of cool things. My players are smart; they'll figure it out.

Hm. You know what? That's what it comes down to. So far it looks like that while those spells are certainly the default/path of least resistance solutions to a lot of STAP's challenges, they don't seem to be the ONLY solution. I think we'll be alright. Thanks everybody!

I'm a big fan of handouts. I typed out the journal page from the Rage, printed it in a cool font (the "If only I had..." sentence lined up perfectly with the bottom of the page!), tore the margins off to give it the rough look of early paper-making technology, and brought it to the game.

When the party reached the Rage, I got up and got a glass of water, hiding it behind my DM screen. I slid the note into the glass so only the top 1" was above the water. Then I dipped my green wet-erase marker into the glass to give it a cool sargasso tint.

When the scout (a ninja/swordsage) went into the cabin to retrieve the journal, I described the loose board and the journal tipping into the hole. The player exclaimed for a reflex save to dive forward and catch it. I had him roll. He rolled a 24, so I told him the DC was 25. Everyone groaned, but then I said "you dive but the book slips through your fingers. You land and see the journal has landed in a mat of muck and is quickly sinking. On your belly leaning over the edge, you make one last snatch and come away with a single soggy page." Then I put the glass on the table. Everyone laughed; it was great.

I enjoy the handouts for Savage Tide; I only wish they were available for download, complete with cool font and ready to go. Searching for fonts (Mocha is a good one; google "pirate font" or "vampire font" for more) and typing out the handouts is worth it, but kind of a chore.

The trouble you’ll encounter with changing assumed elements of the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” is that when playing that system, there is an expectation of what it is – and that would be high fantasy with generous amounts of magic and magic items. Stated differently, the “World’s Most Popular Roleplaying Game” default setting isn’t “gritty”.

Well, again: we've all agreed as a group that those spells spoil the "alone in the wilderness" point of this AP, and the spells have been gone since before dice were rolled for character creation. It's as if the PHB just doesn't have them in the spell list. I'm aware that D&D's default isn't gritty; that's why we're deliberately changing it. :)

Honestly, I'm a little shocked by the passion in some of the responses. If Fly, Teleport, and Improved Invis are so integral to the play experience--if it's impossible to consider that a high level wizard could choose to not pick Fly for his known spell list--then they shouldn't be spells at all. Wizards should just get those abilities at the appropriate level.

But I digress. We had a couple new players in last night's game and they expressed shock at the change. But then, upon reflection, they agreed it fits this particular campaign. Much (all?) of the thrill of being in the middle of the ocean, on the Isle of effing-Dread, is that you're cut off from safety. You're cut off from authority. You've only got yourself, and your companions. You can't just snap your fingers (or snap your fingers twice; whatever) and be home in luxury and comfort.

For example: (SPOILER ALERT), one of the party members failed his save vs. mummy rot in Tamoachan. No big deal, right? Wrong. They were a month out from Sasserine, with no cleric. They'd bought some scrolls for emergencies, including Remove Disease, but hadn't thought to buy Remove Curse. It was a real joy (for everyone) as the realization sank in that they couldn't just stroll on down to the village cleric and toss him a sack of gold.

So when they got back to the boats, Lavinia told them that the next stop was a large fort full of priests and monks--all he had to do was survive 14 more days. Two weeks with mummy rot! Well, it was shorter than a month back to Fort Blackwell. On they went, the guy kept alive each day by Lesser Restorations from the Jade Raven, Kaskus.

And then they rounded the corner and saw the charred remains of Fort Greenrock... :) Everyone howled, but everyone had a huge smile on their face too. Even farther from civilization now, all hope rested on the tiny village of Rencrue. I had the Nixie separate in a storm and they barely made it to the island. There they had to use the magic dagger from Tamoachan and all of the junk jewelry and other treasure from Purity's Prow to convince the villagers to adopt the afflicted guy into the tribe, and have their witch doctor cast the spell. (I gave them back the massive over-pay later, simply by upping later treasure haul).

Totally awesome. Much better than pulling out a Teleport scroll and bopping back to town. It's just as true now as it'll be at 9th level.

I hear you. It's a flavor thing. So much of the Savage Tide is you're journeying to this exotic, far away place--the Isle of Dread!--and if it's a simple snap-of-the-fingers away, then that cheapens the whole experience.

Maybe I'll do a compromise, and just bump the spell level by one or two levels. Perhaps in this particular continuity of Greyhawk, the barriers between dimensions are just a little thicker/harder to penetrate. The power of Earth (and gravity) are just a little stronger. The veil of illusion just a little fainter.

Thanks Greg. Well, that's the thing. What if the mass market player didn't happen to choose those spells? Wouldn't it be better to include multiple solutions to encounters?

I guess you run into the issue of potential wasted effort on the writer's part. I mean, if the writer writes a cool encounter on a thin bridge in an ancient dwarven mine, and the players just say "er, no big deal: we cast Fly and go over it", then that's not very fun. :)

Speaking of LotR, man, D&D spells would ruin that whole book.

Bilbo: "Hey Gandalf! Check out my ring!"
Gandalf: "Let me see.. hm..." [Identify, Legend Lore.] This is no ordinary ring! It is The One Ring!"
Bilbo: "That's bad, right? How do we destroy it?"
Gandalf: [Divination] "We need to take it Mt. Doom." [Scry] "Looks like the coast is clear." [Teleport, toss].
Bilbo: "Well, I'm glad that's over."

You've basically picked the best spells and spell-like abilities and taken them from the players.

Well, no. I've removed access to them. It's not like the players had these abilities, and I took them away. We all agreed that those spells aren't that fun, and so decided to delete them from the list of available spells. The party sorcerer can still pick any other spell from that list.

If you're players like severe handicaps and not being able to take on higher level adventures where these things are necessary to actually tackle the adventures, then so be it.

Well, that's the thing. I like multiple solutions to problems/obstacles. If every obstacle can be solved with one spell, and only that one spell, then that's not fun. It's poor level design. What if, for whatever reason, the player of the arcane caster choose not to pick "Fly" as a spell? Or if the party lacks an arcane caster entirely? What--does a big sign pop up and simply say "your adventure ends here"?

A good adventure should not make any assumptions about player spell selection or composition. The purpose of this thread was to find out if the STAP made such assumptions. Looks like it did. :(

I think you're making a mistake. And your players are definitely going to be unhappy as they reach the levels in which these things would be available to them and they aren't, yet their enemies are making liberal use of them.

Well, their enemies will be lacking them too--as spells, that is. Spell-like abilities will still be available.

Edit: Now that I've reacted negatively to your idea, let me try to provide some helpful tips as well. You're going to need to pay close attention to providing your players with certain items that will make up for those teleport limitations and being grounded. Potions of fly and invisibility are not a bad idea and since they are a single shot item, they won't hurt the spirit of your house rule. A carpet of flying is also not a bad idea. See the encounter with Zotzilaha and his treasure in Tides of Dread as an area where you can replace what's there with tailored items for your needs. The carpet of flying idea isn't bad. Boots of teleportation would be good too, but as a 1/day use item.

Those are good ideas. The point of the spell limitation was to impart the game with a dramatic, gritty feel. There's no instant escape, no ridiculously easy "get out of jail free" card to recharge batteries and pop off to Greyhawk to buy whatever magic items they care to buy.

I particularly like the idea of a 1/day, limited item. Maybe something like a Teleport that goes back (and forth) between specific locations, kind of like Diablo's scroll of Town Portal.

How about this? A pair of items that, when activated, transports the user (and his party) from the location of one of the items to the location of the other. When the party departs, they leave behind a portion of their souls. While so separated, they cannot heal magically, auto-fail any saves, and every day they are away they take 1 point of ability damage to all abilities. These penalties instantly go away when they are reunited.

This makes the use of such items a truly "emergency only" event. And allows brief forays back to town while heavily discouraging "scry and fry" tactics.

Paizo's higher-level adventures mostly seem to take it for granted that the party can fly. It's not strictly essential, but adventures are designed to play like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon," rather than like "Enter the Dragon." And if you can't fly, you'd better all have Climb modifiers of like +30.

Hm. That's unfortunate, but good to know. Maybe I can hook them up with a carpet of flying, maybe some winged boots or other items, all tweaked so that they can't be constantly "on".

My players and I like a bit of grittier feel to our games, and have all agreed to ban the spells Fly, Teleport, Dimension Door, and Improved Invis from the game. Creatures with these abilities can still use them, but whatever reason they were never developed as spells.

One side effect of this change is that players can't just teleport away from danger/to a destination. They can't zip off to Magic Wal-Mart to purchase scrolls, potions, or other new magic items (and Farshore does not have a magic Wal Mart).

Right now the party is approaching the Sargasso in SWW and so far the change has not had a detrimental impact. What I'm wondering is: will the party be irreparably crippled in the later modules? Are those four spells literally "must-haves" for mid to high level Dungeons & Dragons play.

What is this ENWorld story hour/Campaign Journal you speak of?

It's here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=181237&page=1&pp=40

It's a party of non-Good characters going through the Savage Tide. The group is led (and slowly corrupted) by an Evil bard named Anwar.

Great dialog, great characters.