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Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow?You don't swap out your background skill. You swap out your class skill. Background comes before class in the character creation order of go. "Each time after the first that you would gain the trained proficiency rank in a given skill, you instead allocate the trained proficiency to any other skill of your choice." This character took Lizardfolk Lore as his Ancestry Feat. That grants trained proficiency in Nature and Survival. His current Background is Hunter (I say "current" because I haven't played him above 1st Level yet and might change it), which also grants Survival. His Class is Ranger, which also grants Nature and Survival. The net result is three Skills of my choice.
Cannot agree, but I can recognize why someone would think that.If you believe that you can, to put a specific example to it, change the lore skill you chose with your Animal Whisper background, what other than "retraining your background" would you think the rules refer to that as? Most Backgrounds consist of 4 things: • The Background itself
We know you can't Retrain Backgrounds. That's an explicit example. We know you can Retrain Skills. No exceptions listed there. And we know you can Retrain Feats. Exceptions are listed, with the examples including Level-based prerequisites and the like. You can Retrain 3 of those 4 things. But you can't Retrain the Background itself. This does matter in a handful of cases, such as the Wavetouched Paragon I mentioned earlier. I believe there is another Background related to content from the new Legends book as well. Any of those 3 things would take 7 days each to Retrain, which of course eats into your other Downtime activities. Ask yourself this: Does it make sense that you can swap out your Background skills when you've already become Trained in them from your Ancestry/Class, but not Retrain them as the rules allow? And does it make sense that an Anvil Dwarf can't be an Artisan without being stuck with a dead Feat they can't Retrain? Those are Core options, and rather iconic. Pathfinder 2 is liberal with its Retraining. I was initially hesitant to believe this myself when I created this thread, but it's becoming more and more apparent (to me) the more we discuss it.
"You can't retrain your ancestry, heritage, background, class, or ability scores." - this one makes it clear that you can't swap your background for another Absolutely agree. or even swap choices that the background happens to have given you for other choices you could have made within that background. Cannot agree, but I can recognize why someone would think that.
Wait, what? I see a general rule that you can. I see it in three different locations, in fact. The section Taja quoted does not, to me, appear to restrict Retraining of Ancestry or Background Feats (and the reasoning for being unable to use Crafting is lost on me, since Skills do not have any requirements or prerequisites). Pathfinder is a permissive rules system. You need text that tells you can do something. I see that here. I've linked to it. What I was looking for was clear evidence of any exceptions. All I've seen of that is Taja's interpretation that a restriction on level-based prerequisites somehow restricts Retraining of Ancestry and Background Feats. I disagree that is a clear exception. It, by definition, is an opinion. It's an opinion I have noted, but it's still an opinion that lacks support for being clear or concrete.
Isn't that in reference to the above sentence, "You can retrain feats, skills, and some selectable class features"? A Feat you earn from a Background or Ancestry isn't a "selectable" option. I think that passage refers to taking an X-Level Feat, and being unable to trade it out for an X+N Level Feat. The examples seem to confirm that, as well, and don't list Ancestry or Background Feats as being restricted.
If a player wants to create an Anvil Dwarf with the Artisan Background because it fits the stereotypical dwarven blacksmith theme, I don't think "responsibility" has anything to do with it. It sounds like your main argument is intentionality. Also, some Backgrounds matter beyond what Feats and Skills they give you. The Wavetouched Background matters for selecting the Wavetouched Paragon Feat, which increases the likelihood of being shoehorned into a future Ancestry/Background/Class combination as more material is published.
By which I mean pick a different heritage or a different background and you'll be fine, rather than deliberately seeking out the same element from multiple sources. That's easy to say now, in the infancy of Pathfinder 2, but as more options become published, this possibility increases whether the player is being "deliberate" or not . If you can Retrain those feats, then you're truly never stuck with a dead option. And that answers another question I was mulling over. All Lizardfolk gain Breath Control as a bonus General Feat. It's useful, but rather circumstantial. Toughness would definitely come up more often. They're both General Feats, so that satisfies the "replace it with another of the same type" requirement. Looks like I'll have a lot of Retraining in my near future...
I know that "If your class would make you trained in a skill you’re already trained in (typically due to your background), you can select another skill to become trained in." But I can't find anything similar for Feats. A Cliffscale Lizardfolk with the Ruby Phoenix Enthusiast Background gains the Combat Climber Feat twice. Are they just stuck with a dead Feat? If they are, can they Retrain one of them? I don't see a restriction on Retraining your Background or Ancestry Feat... |
