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I agree with Magicdealer’s math up until he adds mithral since it is not made from mithral. So the cost of celestial armor of 22,400, minus the +3 enhancement bonus of 9000 and fly once per day of 8100 results in 22,400-9000-8100 =5300 for the cost of celestial magic quality (on medium armor).

I view the celestial quality as providing the following benefits based on comparing traditional chainmail with the celestial armor described in the book.

Celestial Quality
1. Treat armor as one category lighter (I would say minimum light)
2. Maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 6
3. Armor check Penalties are decreased by 3
4. Arcane Spell Failure is decreased by 15%

Mithral Quality
1. Treat armor as one category lighter (min light)
2. Maximum Dexterity bonuses are increased by 2
3. Armor check penalties are decreased by 3 (min 0)
4. Arcane Spell Failure is decreased by 10%

To make mithral chain, the cost increases by 4000 for medium armor according to the Special Materials section. The Celestial quality provides an increase of 4 above mithral to Dexterity bonuses and 5% more for Arcane Spell Failure for a cost of 1300 more than mithral? I don’t know if the cost of the celestial quality should be more or not. There is nothing in the rules that says these bonuses couldn’t stack. I would require proficiency in the use of the non-adjusted armor category however, like mithral requires. So yes, you could have plate that would be considered light armor if it was both mithral and celestial, but I would require proficiency in heavy armor. Further thoughts?

Ok - i understand what you are saying erian_7. What about my example of mage armor being cast on a character with, lets say padded armor +1 of heavy fortification (which by your reasoning would provide a +2 armor bonus). Since the armor bonus source is larger with mage armor, does it negate the heavy fortification of the +1 padded armor?

I understand both points. If you could, look at my discussion regarding the Web of Steel feat in the new Adventurers Handbook in Compatable Products. This feat grants a scaling armor bonus based on level (1/2 character level +2) (requires other feats, a melee weapon in hand and not flat footed) but says it doesn't stack with other armor bonuses. Granted, but I went on to a scenario where someone with this feat could wear padded armor (+1 armor bonus) +5 enhancement bonus with +5 abilities, the author said if the feat provided more of an armor bonus than another source, the whole other source abilities (padded armor in this case) would be canceled like with bracers of armor. I don't know what is correct. Yes, I could house rule, but looking for others thoughts.

I’ve been having a debate about armor bonuses. I have been under the assumption that while armor bonuses do not stack, armor enhancement and special abilities still function even if another armor source is applied. Some examples, lets say you have padded armor (armor bonus of 1) with an enhancement bonus of +3, and a few special abilities worth +3. One camp believes all armor bonus sources and abilities are forfeit if another armor source provides a higher armor bonus ala the description of bracers of armor. Note, this complete elimination of any other enhancements or abilities with a higher armor bonus source is only described in bracers of armor, not anywhere else. This would mean, the character with the padded armor above, if he had mage armor cast on him (armor bonus +4) would lose the enhancement bonus and special abilities of the padded armor until the spell ends simply because the spell armor source is higher. The other camp believes that, yes, armor bonuses don’t stack so the armor bonus +1 of padded armor is forfeit since only the highest armor bonus applies (mage armor +4) but enhancement bonus from the padded armor and its special abilities would still apply since these are separately named bonus to AC and abilities.

Another example, a bard finds a robe of the archmagi which, among many other benefits, provides a +5 armor bonus. Let say this bard is already wearing the padded armor noted above. Would the Bard lose all of the armor enhancement bonuses and special abilities of the padded armor because the robe provides a higher armor bonus?

I understand the same type of bonuses not stacking, but other than the specific description of bracers of armor, I haven’t found anything stating that lower armor bonus source abilities are completely negated if another higher armor source is applied. Thoughts?

All - I've been having a dialogue back and forth with the author of the book. Its in Compatible Products Discussion - Adventurers Handbook. He states that the bracers of armor restriction applies to all armor bonuses; meaning, if any armor bonus source is greater than another, the higher one trumps the lower AND negates any abilities the lower one had. Example, someone is wearing padded armor (armor bonus of +1) that has a +5 enhancement bonus and +5 of special abilities. Someone casts mage armor on this person - mage armor grants +4 armor bonus. The spell, by this interpretation would negate the +5 enhancement bonus and +5 of special abilities since the spell source grants a higher armor bonus. This certainly eliminates the light armor discussion we have been having, but introduces another issue. Imagine a character with this armor (100k gp value so at least 12th level by average wealth levels), meets an enemy wizard who casts a 1st level touch spell (mage armor which grants +4 armor bonus) on him. By this interpretation, anyone wearing studded, leather or padded armor, or has a +3 or less armor bonus from bracers or robes, no matter how greatly they may be enhanced, would have their armor, bracers and robe abilities completely negated for the duration of the mage armor spell. Thoughts?

Thanks! This makes sense. I did not know the resriction on bracers of armor applied to all armor bonuses including armor worn. It is not mentioned anywhere except in bracers of armor. THis is interesting. So if someone has padded armor (armor bonus of +1) with a +5 enhancement bonus and +5 in special abilities (cost of 100k gp), then a wizard casts mage armor on him (a 1st level spell), the character would have a +4 armor bonus but would then have negated the +5 of special abilities and +5 enhancement bonus to AC? I smell a potential enemy wizard tactic on armored characters in mid levels!

Thank you again for all the clarification. My group is really enjoying the handbook. Can't wait for Volume II!

Caineach – I believe it is true that enhancement bonuses are indeed separate from armor bonuses. I will use your example, however, I do not believe a chain shirt can be worn under plate armor any more than a character can wear leather armor under plate. Lets assume for the moment that you can, it would result in the following:

Chain shirt armor bonus +4, enhancement bonus +5

Plate armor bonus +9, enhancement bonus +1

The result would be armor bonus of +9 (plate bonus is higher so trumps chain shirt) and enhancement bonus of +5 ( chain shirt enhancement bonus trumps +1 of the plate) for a total of +14 to AC. Again, I don’t believe you can wear chain shirt plus full plate.

Back to the feat at hand, armor bonuses don’t stack, so if a character did wear padded armor, the +1 armor bonus would be forfeit but if it has any enhancement bonuses or special abilities, they should apply according to the rules. The only specifically stated restriction on this type of stacking is bracers of armor. Bracers that have an armor bonus and special abilities, if any other armor bonus is higher than the bracers, nothing on the bracers work. So having a +1 armor bonus, +7 special abilities bracers of armor, it would not work at all if a character has anything (including a feat) that grants an armor bonus greater than 1. There is no restriction on this for regular worn magical armor that states if another armor bonus is greater, the whole worn armor, enhancement and special abilities is forfeit.

Thanks for getting back to me! So glad it is the source! IF you don't mind humoring me, let me give you two examples that, since this book came out, are real. A monk character getting this feat and using unarmed strike (since the character claims it is considered a light weapon) I argue that it is probably not the intent to use unarmed strike since it is not "in hand ready to use" and web of steel implies a weapon. HOwever, by the rules, I believe it should be allowed. Now the monk gets an armor bonus up to +12 whereas before he could only get up to +8 from bracers. The character has said, if I disallow unarmed strikes, he will simply take weapon focus in temple sword to get this feat. I don't blame him - its a great feat. I realize this feat would essentially prohibit this character from ever getting the benefits of bracers of armor.

The other example is the bard. With this feat he wants to only wear padded leather which grants armor bonus of 1 and is least cumbersome. No, the +1 armor bonus wont stack with this feat so it is wasted, but he wants to enchant the padded leather with enhancement bonuses, which by the rules would be allowed to add to AC. At 20th level, he has this feat bonus of +12, enhancement of +5 and up to +5 of other special armor abilities from the padded armor, making AC +17. Compared to full plate wearing fighter, 9 armor and +5 enhancement, AC +14. YOu mention Web of Steel wont let a character stack on armor enhancement bonuses. I don't see why this is the case as written. The feat allows light armor, and while only the highest armor bonus would apply (the feat in this instance) there is no rule that I know of that would not allow the enhancement bonus from the padded armor to apply (since enhancement bonus is different from armor bonus).

I really really appreciate your feedback and time.

Caineach is right. I misread bracers; all abilities would stop functioning if this feat was taken. So I agree, this is not a problem for Monk as it practically precludes a monk from ever using bracers of armor. Now, what about light armor wearing characters? Rogue, bard, etc. They can get up to a +12 armor bonus from this feat, overlap +1 armor bonus from padded leather and do not gain its benefit, but could gain the full enhancement bonus +5 and +5 of other abilities. THis would give an armor bonus of 12 from the feat with enhancment of +5, 17. Compared to a full plate wearing fighter of 9 armor from full plate and +5 enhancement, thats 14. Any thoughts here? Now I think house ruling that no armor should be allowed as Slacker2010 says may fix it.

House ruling can be an option. The feat is worded as follows: When you are not flat footed, wearing light armor or no armor, and have a melee weapon you have Weapon Focus for in hand ready for use, you gain an armor bonus to your AC. This bonus is equal to 1/2 your character level +2. Any circumstance that would cause you to lose your dodge bonus also causes you to lose this armor bonus to AC. Like any armor bonus, it does not stack with other sources of armor.

If I house rule no wearing armor allowed, I still wonder, for four feats, would wizards, sorcerers and especially monks always get this since it is better than bracers of armor of +8? Furthermore, you could still enchant the bracers with just a +1 armor bonus (which wouldn't stack) but then get +7 of special armor abilities. Again, part of me thinks it is worthwhile and not overpowered, but the monk I am concerned about.

Hmm, I don't think that is the case. Enhancement bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, not armor bonuses. Quote core rule book "Magic armor bonuses are enhancement bonuses, never rise above +5, and stack with regular armor bonuses (and with shield and magic shield enhancment bonuses).

Sorry for the confusion, its in the Adventurers Handbook, Genius Guide Volume 1 by Super Genius Games that was just released

I thought about this for monks. I agree with Lazurin that unarmed strikes may be a loophole, but as the rules state, unarmed strikes are considered light weapons. Lets say I disallow unarmed strikes, so the monk gets weapon focus with temple sword. It just has to be weilded and he can still flurry attacking with whatever combination of attacks he wants. Recall, monks can unarmed strike with hands full. Even outside of monk, for three feats any character can get this feat (BTW you also need Int 13, and Dex 15 with BAB +1). THis would be the highest armor bonus in the game. Full plate only provides 9 and bracers of armor provide a max of 8. Granted, characters with this feat wouldn't be at 8 armor until level 12 and armor or 9 at level 14. GIven the amount of feats a fighter gets, why wouldn't every fighter get this feat by level 14? At this point, they can enchant just padded armor (light), only forgo the stacking 1 armor bonus from the padded leather, yet still enchant to +5 enhancement bonus and +5 other abilities to this padded armor and get the same armor bonus as full plate from this feat? Again, I like the concept of this feat a lot, but just wondering if overpowered. THanks.

The new Adv Guide has a feat called Web of Steel. It allows an armor bonus equal to 1/2 character level +2 while wielding the weapon with weapon focus feat. Yes, it requires three feats to get (dodge, Combat Expertise, and Weapon Focus), does not operate if flat footed or any reason you would lose a dodge bonus and does not stack with other armor bonuses. Yet, by 20th level, this is an armor bonus of 12. I assume this would work with Unarmed Attacks as the melee weapon since these are considered light weapons as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I like the feat, but I made a post before regarding other publications; feat tree of Unarmored Defense Proficiency and most seem to think it was overpowered. Also, in light of posts I read on the new Hamatulatsu feat being reworked by the developers (removing critical threat range of 16-20), there is no other feat in the game that would give such a scaling to armor or scaling of this kind at all that I can think of. THoughts would be appreciated.

First - this book is great and I already have a person playing a Magus in my campaign and is loving it. We had a question regarding Spell requirements. It says the magus must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 plus spell level in order to learn or cast a spell. Yet bonus spells and DC's are charisma dependent. Do people think this split of abilities is intentional or a typo? I'm trying to reconcile.

On the feat side, I'm wondering if people believe the Web of Steel feat is overpowered or not. It gives an armor bonus equal to 1/2 character level +2 while wielding the weapon with weapon focus feat. Yes, it requires three feats to get, does not operate if flat footed or any reason you would lose a dodge bonus and does not stack with other armor bonuses. Yet, by 20th level, this is an armor bonus of 12. I assume this would work with Unarmed Attacks as the melee weapon since these are considered light weapons as well. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Can't wait to try the other classes!

Thanks all for the advice. Here is where I am. I like the new feat creation you all came up with - having it not apply if flat footed and using BAB as the bonus. I also like the feat doubling the monk AC. As for the Ki of the Masters, I'll consider it like the weapon finesse conversation chain. Most seem to approve of a feat that switches to DEX instead of STR if weapon finesse is the prereq and it applies to one weapon.

I saw the thread on a Weapon FInesse feat for damage, which was great, so I guess I am looking for advice from people on teh 2-4 above. THanks all.

I am looking for advice on allowing certain feats into my game. Many of my players have extensive splat books from previous 3.x versions. Since PFRPG is still 3.x compatible, I generally allow some material from other sources into my PFRPG (since they spent a lot of money on these in the past). Typically, inclusion of other OGL materials hasn’t affected game play and has made many of my players happy to use favorite features, magic items and feats from other sources as supplements. Several have come up that I would like some advice. I am generalizing some of the descriptions since I don’t have the books in front of me.

1. Superior Finesse – Prereq – Weapon Finesse, Dex 13+
Benefit: Ch0ose any weapon eligible for Weapon Finesse. You may add your Dex bonus to damage instead of your Str modifier.

2. Ki of the Masters – Prereq: Wis 13+, Str 11+, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fists, BAB +3 or higher
Benefit: On a successful unarmed strike you can add your Wisdom modifier instead of your Strength modifier to the damage roll. This feat is an extraordinary ability.

3. Unarmored Defense Proficiency - Prereq – None
Benefit: Your base AC is increased by a bonus determined by your level when you are unarmored. This bonus does not stack with any armor bonuses granted by armor. When wearing armor this bonus is not applied.
Special: This bonus is applied even when you are caught flat-footed or denied your Dex modifier to your AC. This bonus is an increase to the characters base AC and thus is not named.

Basically it allows a bonus to AC that scales from +1 at level 2 to +7 at level 20

4. There is a series of feats that sequentially have Unarmored Defense Proficiency as a preq: Unarmored Defense Focus which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +10 at level 20; Unarmed Defense Specialization which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 2 to +15 at level 20; and Unarmored Defense Mastery which increases the AC bonus scaling to +1 at level 1 to +20 at level 20.

These are considered general feats which gives me pause. Why wouldn’t any character take these, especially spellcasters? I can see if the feats were limited to the Fighter class such as Weapon Specialization, as these could give flavor for an unarmored fighter character without gimping him too hard at higher levels for not using armor. I’d appreciate feedback on these. Thanks.

player or DM looking for a pathfinder game. LOcated in Central SF. Thanks.

are you all still looking? Looking to play or DM a Pathfinder game in SF. Thanks.

Just moved to SF a month and half ago. Looking for Pathfinder players or DM's as well. I'm central SF near diamond heights.

so those in or around the central jersey area, please shoot me an email at mike_placencia(at)hotmail.com. happy gaming

Bill Lumberg wrote:

What days are you planning on playing?

DOnt know the protocol here for sharing info, can we put info on this site? Sorry for long delay in responding.

I'm in Jersey City, so I'm not super close, but if you did a special Pathfinder Society day or something I might be able to hop on NJT and get out to you.

Cool. Jersey city is not that far by train. 45 minutes or so. I can also travel as well. I'll check back on Sunday to exchange info.

Really? Where in Monmouth co? I'm in Mercer, not far off 295.

GSP 117A near aberdeen/matawan. Technically marlboro area.

In monmouth County New Jersey looking for others in the area to play 3.5/Pathfinder. Played for a long time but friends moved away. Interested in both DMing and playing, though a slight rusty.