Wow thanks. Looks amazing.
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Thanks Gwaedh
I have two questions which I have not been able to find direct answers in the Core Rulebook. Are all magic items with the description "command" (verb) 100% of the time referring to "command word" being verbally spoken? Can a personal spell be put into a scroll if you scribe and use the scroll yourself? If no, why not? Answers with page number references would be nice but not necessary as it helps me learn the book and where to find things (it has been difficult for me to learn all the different places in the book to find info on a complex topic like scrolls).
My improved familiar is the inevitable arbiter. It is a relatively hardy familiar with regeneration 2/chaos. My next personal upgrade will be to add Int +2 use magic device (recently got it as a class skill). This way familiar can use wands (to heal, buff, even fireball), and I can get a wand of enlarge to it so that it threatens from 5 feet away. The rogue used to be "Sir DiesALot" but has since begun to stay behind the paladin (greatsword build). The problem has been lately that the paladin is surprised. Gets charged and shredded before getting an action, so being on full-defense would mitigate that a bit by raising AC. The advice/suggestion to be on full defense was meant for the no-perception paladin, and the readied actions before combat begins for the rest of us. The paladin does Lay On Hands, pack Hero's Defiance & Paladin's Sacrifice as well as channel in a pinch. The wizard has primarily been the buffer of the party, but maybe that will change since I've been able to use some of my lower level spell slots to buff rather than heal. We, as a party, get hammered up front and have to play catch up. Getting the paladin on total defense and each of us having some readied action would at least slow the shredding. With the hope of getting away from my first action be to heal, I'm looking at spells to slow things down like Obscuring Mist and Bestow Curse. Any suggestions as to cleric and wizard spells which would slow things down upfront would be helpful. I could suggest them to the wizard.
Great advice from everyone. Our group consists of 2 newbies (me and another) and 2 more experienced gamers. I'm not quite sure how the more experienced gamers will react to me, newby, giving them some of the advice which has been offered here. According to our GM, we often get hammered our first round because we have a general lack of perception in the group (except for rogue). Combine the lack of perception with the lack of tactics (full defense, readied actions, etc) and lack of AC for the paladin "meat shield" and that probably goes a long way to explaining why I start healing upfront. Hit points at leveling: we roll and the GM rolls and we get the option to take our roll or his roll (if we roll a 2, the odds are good that GM's is higher)
I generally channel when more than one ally is significantly down, and I do an individual heal (either with rod of reach or familiar) if only one ally is significantly down. Also have rod of extend and a "string of pearls" for barkskin all around. Offensive spells (not party buffing) that I currently pack:
I pack buffs and defense (Bear's endurance, shield, shield of faith) and things like shield other. I currently use shield other on my familiar (against the advice of my allies who think I should drop it all together). I used to use shield other on one of my allies, but that tended to get me almost killed. My build:
STR: 14
Domains:
Note about feats:
Feats:
Domains: Rune and Protection with subdomain of Defense
@Muad'Dib
Unfortunately I can't give you specific stats on anyone but myself. I'm a newby and do good just to keep up with my stats. I've discussed this a bit with the GM of the group. Apparently we are both tactically lacking (don't do things like full defense or ready actions enough and apparently I'm packing alot of "wrong" offensive spells) and equipment lacking (Paladin's AC is too low). As a newby though I didn't know this and don't really know how to tell everyone to fix it. Our group composition: paladin, rogue, wizard, cleric(me)
After the first few levels, when I started to have more than a few channels and spells, I went from being a combination spellcaster and back-up fighter (fun for me) to primarily a healer (not as much fun). It has actually been said that if the cleric (me) is active in the battle (not healing), things are either going really good or really bad. When I started playing a cleric, I specifically did not want to be the heal-bot and, even with the help of a very experienced player in building my cleric, that's what I feel I've become. If I get a single offensive spell cast I feel exceptionally accomplished because most of the time I drop them to heal. And for the record, I don't heal to top off my allies hit points. I heal to keep my allies from dying. They are either nearing single digits or they are already unconscious. I have considered taking the quick channel feat so that I can heal AND cast in the same round. This would make me feel less like a heal-bot (good for me), but I forsee a problem with my allies who have grown accustomed to me healing instead of bestowing curses and holy smiting (bad for me as I run out of healing faster with quick channel and not dropping spells to heal). Should I warn my allies that I'm going to potentially have less heals (quick channel & not dropping spells) available for them?
Wow. Thank you for sharing.
I play a cleric in my current campaign. For in combat healing I would recommend
2. Positive healing channel in a pinch gets multiple targets 3. Taking 2 feats to get a familiar
From a newby player perspective, one of the key rules that aided me in my gaming sessions is understanding movement. How far can I move (for example, movement speed)? How movement works (for example, diagonal distance verses straight line distance) What effect my move has (for example, attack of opportunity or not)? I'm working on a keyword/jargon list for myself (as SmiloDan mentioned) because not knowing what some of the specific terminology means for example, "to command" in reference to a magic item is very specific), comes in handy. Also like SmiloDan mentioned, what you can do during a turn is also key. What counts as a move action? standard action? free action? full round action? As well as, knowing what the difference is between a turn and round, and difference between things like a surprise round and regular round especially in what actions you can take. Those are just the first things that came to mind.
One problem new players with unique ideas have is that in a rules intensive game those creative ideas must conform to those rules. Finding a way to make a creative idea happen legally can be difficult or impossible. It is just easier to play a stereotypical optimal character than a creative one sometimes. (I still identify as a new player and am struggling with this)
Freehold DM, I do argue, too passionately sometimes, but if I don't have the rules to back me up, I lose. My arguing is one of the things which prompted the post which began this thread. It is comforting to know that I am not as "non-gamer" as I thought I was; I'm just a different gamer. And to all those who suggested I talk with the GM and group (DeathQuaker being the most recent) I have and will continue to do so. Thanks to this thread I have a more clear understanding as to 'where the rub' is so to speak. Hopefully it will help.
I just want to state that in many ways I do like the rules. They bring consistency. If last gaming session X was allowed and this session I try to do X and it is not allowed, with no explanation why (like you don't have the feat) I will call foul. Granted I'm not in a group where exceptions like "he got lucky" or "he got a huge adrenaline rush" are used as explanations. I agree that my style, at least at this point in my gaming evolution, doesn't completely mesh with my current group. I am not, however, prepared to jump ship yet. I'm looking for ways to learn the ways of my group without being so frustrated, because I appreciate the rules and think I will eventually be able to be creative within those rules (like writing computer code which is both beautiful, almost poetic, yet within strict rules) Time? the answer to everything. Or there is no answer and I just have a deal with it.
I'm not wanting or expecting Pathfinder to be accurate or like something that it's not. It doesn't have to be like the documentary said it should be. My problem is that I'll have an idea, possibly something that I've seen somewhere (movie etc), and I'll want to do it during the game. From my perspective, our group's gaming style is pretty rules intensive. Doing things according to the rules seems to be of primary importance and play is often slowed or stopped to look stuff up and/or discuss it. Between gaming sessions the boards here on Paizo are used to research the fine points of how things are done. If someone has a creative idea, no matter how glorious, if it can't be proven possible by the rules it doesn't happen, or happens with the caveat that it is a one off until the rules are researched to see if it should have and can be done again. Again, this is my perspective. I've been gaming with the same group for over a year and have no frame of reference as to what is and is not rules intensive. I don't have a problem with this adherence to rules; it leads to consistency. There is a cultural history of gaming that I do feel like I'm missing. I don't know that way it's been in gaming, and I often feel like I asked for something completely outlandish when I ask for something which goes against that "that's never been possible" cultural knowledge base. So when I want to do something that isn't expressly forbidden, often lots of time is spent looking for the book reference as to why to back up their "that's the way it's always been." Maybe I should be satisfied with "that's how it's been since back in the day" but I learn best when I know where in the book it says it, especially when it's something cool that I really wanted to do. I'm not being dogpiled with advice; I don't think that I ever was. I used to get hints and multiple choice like options in tight critical situations, but to have a more "real" gaming experience that has stopped. This is actually what has created the problem I think. I now think for myself completely, and I don't think like the more experienced gamers. I feel more creative, but I also feel more frustrated.
I'm afraid if I give examples this will become a discussion of who is right and who is wrong, which I don't want. Right or wrong it is the standard of the group, whether house rule, interpretation of a fuzzy rule, or hard rule. I have, however, gotten some excellent advice. Patience from all involved (myself and group). I think like any culture (for lack of a better term) it just takes time to learn the ways of the land. If I want different interpretation of the fuzzy or different house rules, argue for them or leave the group. Otherwise, I just have to learn the way things work. And try to remember that stumbling or not, it is fun and suppose to be fun. I have started to make note of things in movies that I see and ask outside the game "in movieX Y happened, is that how it works in Pathfinder?" (example, long spear being used as both a reach weapon and melee close combat weapon) and "I read on page X of the Core that I could do X, am I understanding correctly? how does that apply to situation Z in the past? does that apply to me trying to do B?
Lots to reply to so I hope I answer everyone. Thank you all. Lots of think about and analyze as to where the malfunction is. First, I do believe that I share a common lore (movies, tv, etc). My problem is I do not share an experience base. I don't have the experience or knowledge to know what has "never been true" or "always true" about the Pathfinder (D&D 3.p) universe. I feel like I'm trying to find lightsabers on the Enterprise. I began this campaign from the start with a first level character of my choosing. I have a handle on my character, at least on a broad level. For the most part my character rocks, and I have no complaints over the parts that aren't as cool as I thought they would be (because some things are cooler than I thought so it balances). It's the fine points, the creative application of my character's abilities, which I constantly stumble over. "You would think you can do that but no, never been that way in D&D" or something along those lines I get told. It's like "I know the book says you can but what it doesn't tell you is that you can't because of x" What gets me excited to be at the table is ... when everything is working well most of it. My character rocks, and everyone in the group rocks their particular role (sneak attacking rogue, healer cursing cleric, smiting paladin etc). I just start to feel straightjacketed and confused when I don't understand what is going on and can't do what I think I should be able to. How do I respond to "that's the way it's always been"? I feel like a Methodist in a Catholic stronghold and no one is telling me when to sit/stand/kneel; I didn't grow up with the customs and rituals and reading the book doesn't help most of the time because it's interpretation mixed with 'how it's always been.' I'm trying to stay relaxed and go with the flow, but being shot down and confused is starting to mess with my zen.
Thanks everyone for your differing perspectives, suggestions and encouragement. Fun huh, kind of like finals in college, I think I forget sometimes that learning all this is suppose to come with fun.
Yes... learn to unwind and relax the strict logic. Watch some of the Sam Rani adventure pack shows, Hercules, Xena, the awful D&D movies and perhaps try to get a feel for playing the game with a more cinematic as opposed to anaylytic approach. Thanks LazarX. Being a fan of movies and TV shows like you mentioned is actually one of the things that drew me to learning the game. It's a blast to play in Pathfinder-land. But the mechanics and world of Pathfinder (D&D 3.p) is so well established that everyone but me knows it. I want to do something, either because I did something similar earlier or because it's something I've seen done in a movie and I can't, why I ask, "because that's the way it's been in gaming for years" Even after a year of gaming I feel like I'm a tourist from a neighboring land with different ways of doing things. I'm afraid that "diplomatic immunity" is about to be revoked as patience for my strange-self is wearing thin because "I should know this by now" Pardon if that got a little rant-ish, just a bit frustrated. I just want to keep playing as an active member rather than become the passive tourist.
I apparently don't think like a gamer, at least not the experienced gamers (from AD&D to Star Wars to whatever pretty much) at my table. And it is starting to be a problem for both me and the group. I love playing the game and have a blast, but the fact that I don't think and apply things the way they do is ... becoming an issue. Pathfinder seems like a weird mix of science (extremely specific terminology, mathematical formulas, etc) and religion (application is up for interpretation). As I try to understand and learn, I'm either parsing things too much (scientifically breaking something down) or taking a too broad view of things (interpreting it based on past experience and not parsing it enough). Anyone have any suggestions on how to "think like a gamer"? background: lifelong SciFi fantasy fan but no previous gaming experience: no tabletop rpg & no video games (unless Sims and brain game like games count).
Excellent points Castarr4. I must admit that I have lost a spell and/or received damage. I'm still learning to make the judgment call of when the DC increase of casting defensively is worth it.
Thanks everyone for all the info. Much of it is definitely 'above my pay grade' at this point but interesting.
Thanks Castarr4. I don't think it was too much information. Good information. I have a reach weapon (long spear) and am generally in a position to not have to, and other times I just take the attack of opportunity. Good to take note of the equation though. Will add it to my notes.
Thanks Sean K Reynolds for differentiating what is active and what is reactive. It adds more understanding of why and when I do what.
First, thanks for your explanation. It was short and exactly what I was looking for. My goal is to not stare blankly when the GM asks "What's your concentration?" not to jump the gun. Knowing when I'm suppose to roll something and what to add to the roll verses just giving the number on my sheet is my goal at this point.
Thank you both Mort the Cleverly Names, Jiggy, and meabolex. Both explanations clarified things a bit. I now have a basic understanding of the difference and will leave it at that. Even though the hungry learner is wanting to know more about how a 3rd level gargoyle can have 8 hit dice I will ... not go there yet. One of the things that I'm having to learn is to prioritize what I need to know. I don't always know what is important and what isn't. Something I think is unimportant to me at this stage has in the past turned out to be important.
Whenever I cast a spell that requires me to roll/check concentration, SR, or saves, I generally go the "tell me what to roll ... tell me what add to it" route. And, in the heat of the battle, I don't retain what I just did so the next time it comes up, it's like I've never done it before. I'd like to become more self-sufficient and less "tell me what to do." Could someone explain who-what-when-where-how I'm suppose to use concentration, spell resistance, and saves. As Cleric Level 8, I know that my Concentration(12)=Wisdom(4)+Caster Level(8). My spell DC(14 to 18)=10+Wis(4)+spell level(0 to 4) Thanks
Yesterday, for the first time, I understood the sentence that I often hear my GM utter "A 9 hit die monster ...." I had never asked the term "# hit die" to be explained because I usually have 100 other more immediate personal things to understand and understanding the fine points of the monster I encountered is low on the priority list. Anyway, I have come to understand the "# hit die monster" is roughly equivalent to "# level monster". For example, I am an 8th level cleric which means I am a 8 hit die character. Question: Does number of hit die equal character level? If yes, why have two terms?
Thank you everyone for your responses. As soon as finals are over I will explore some of the options which require more thought, like custom sheets. From sympathy to reality checks to advice, hope to find more times to haunt and participate here.
Sorry Windcaler for the hyberbole, I guess it's a sign of my current frustration. One of the circumstances that caused me to look in 2 or 3 different places in the book was one of the things that inspired this post. In an attempt to better understand my character sheet, I am transferring it to a clean sheet, and in that process I am attempting to understand where my numbers come from. When it came to my weapon's damage, I looked up "damage" in the Core Rulebook index and was sent to page 179. Unfortunately that did not explain my +4 damage. Apparently you have to look in feats and/or magic weapon. To understand/calculate a weapon's damage you need to potentially look in 3 different places, and only 1 of those places is in the index under "damage."
HeroLab has tempted me. My GM isn't strict. As a group, we try to interpret the rules and agree as a group. And by we I mean mainly the experienced players. Not sweating messing up the rules is something that I've been trying to do. It's like learning to drive manual transmission though; stalling and jarring.
I have been playing for a year with experienced players who will do things for me and explain things to me, but I am making an attempt to be less of "dead weight" and think with my own brain rather than relying on theirs.
I love game night. I thoroughly enjoy playing Pathfinder. BUT, the accounting, paperwork, and Core Rulebook make me long for April 15th because it comes but once a year and has simpler rules. Where's Pathfinder's version of H&R Block? If it wasn't so much fun to play, I'd happily give the game up. I'm trying to come up with a document that I can share with people like myself; horribly frustrated newbies. As I'm updating my current character sheet, a few of my problems with Pathfinder occurred to me and got me started. Problem #1
Post-it notes are your friend (unless you want to write in your book)
As a newby it is immensely frustrating for me to want to know how X works, look up X in the index, and then come game day run into a wall of "that's not how X works" because the index and text failed to tell me that I had to look in 2+ other pages to find the whole story. Other than post-it note cross-reference additions to the book, how does a newby deal with this? Problem #2
Don't be afraid to write little notes on your character sheet. For example, I write where my bonuses come from. "Su-protection" above the column for a bonus to my saves that my Cleric Domain gives me. Or, "Dragon book" next to the skill bonus a magical book found while adventuring gave me. "BAB+STR+Size+Magic" above my weapons attack bonus to tell me how it's calculated so that when my BAB goes up I remember it does to. If your GM likes an uncluttered sheet, either negotiate the need you have for the notes OR keep "two sets of books" To a newby, leveling is a complicated process in which you have to remember and take numerous factors into consideration. How can a newby deal with this? Problem #3
Still haven't found a personal suggestion/fix for this one. How do I stop being the "Pathfinder toddler" who keeps asking "But why? ... but why? .... but why? ..." when trying to understand and make sense of things? *** What newby problems have you come across either as a newby yourself or as a GM of newbies?
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