Tatavath's page

Out of curiosity I just opened up the Ship Calculator to directly compare the Explorer/Transport. I'm mostly just confirming the math/logic with an example, for myself. I got the following:

Transport w/
Heavy + Light (Forward)
Light (Port)
Light (Starboard)
Light (Aft)
Light + Light (Turret)
Total: 21 BP

Explorer w/
Light + Heavy (Forward)
Light (Port)
Light (Starboard)
Light (Aft)
Light + Light (Turret)
Total: 27 BP

I don't know that that's the optimal configuration for a gun arrangement, but it seems pretty well rounded to me. I might argue for moving the heavy to the turret and adding a light in front.

Anyway, so the Explorer, when compared to the Transport in this way, costs you 6BP, 15 HP, -5 HP increment, 3 CT, and 1 Expansion Bay in exchange for +1 Piloting -1 Turn. Right now, I can't imagine arguing that it's worth the trade, especially at higher tiers when that hitpoint difference and extra expansion bay are likely to be very important. Especially when you'll likely be fighting big ships with the same or higher turn and your pilot is likely to not need the +1 boost to their skill to pull off maneuvers.

speed and turn rate is still a factor in damage as a opponent with higher piloting then you will try and stay in you blind spot after passing a computers check and then they would be able to often control you by doing so and you being forced more often to go first. this does not mean its and end all be all it just means the slower you are and the less you are able to turn the less damage you will be able to output as you will have a weaker arc somewhere most likely. if you have no weaker arc then you will have a more constant damage output or if you speed and turning is very close to the enemy it will be hard to stay in your blind spot.

Torbyne wrote:

dump the BPs into getting three heavy turrets onto your frame and not worry about any Speed or Turn factors?

You can only have a single turret.

You can upgrade the weapon mount in the turret.

If the frame does not have a turret, there are no rules for adding a turret to the frame.

this is wrong page 305 directly talks about adding new mounts. By RAW you can add mounts to any frame in any location as long as you have the BP to do so and the ship supports this class of weapons.

I think what he's saying is if you adjust the BP cost of the frame by the prices of the included mounts, the Transport already costs less (and you get more hp and an extra bay at the expense of maneuverability)...

yeah thats exactly the point. this is an optimization problem, a well build transport will in 90% of all cases out class a explore from tier 1-12 past this point the 5BP cost of the difference between a explore and a becomes close to 1% but then in this range you start to see the power of more bays and more hp (about 30hp or 35% more).

Don't forget the other ship stats, for instance the Explorer, its got a lot of expansion bays and handles very well for it's size. And for a relatively cheap price too.

sadly that not exactly true an explorer sucks alot when compared to a Transport you are paying 6bp for +1 piloting and 1 turn and loseing one bay and 15hp that is rarely to never going to be worth it your better off paying 3 more bp for a ship that is better in 90% of the situations.

Selecting one feature to compare is not a very accurate comparison.

By your reasoning a fighter is 4 BP cheaper than a shuttle. However for that 4 BP you get better maneuverability, 2 more crew stations and 3 expansion bays. The Light Freighter is probably better than the Shuttle for a party over 4 members despite having worse maneuverability.

you are again comparing out of class ships, a break down like this only work when you compare direct class, or to phrase it another way small to small and so on and i did state that. a shuttle is strictly worse in most ways(only advantarge a shuttle has is +1 piloting and 1 faster turn and you are in effect paying 5bp for that) to a light freighter and that is the only comparison we can make in that class. you are the one put the words into my mouth that a fighter is better then a shuttle.

this is more about comparing in size elements, a ship with the same size class with a lower BP cost will be likely quite a bit more combat ready then any other ship then a ship with higher BP. this is just a rudementary tool right now as we only have 2-3 ships in each class but it does show with out any other information that a shuttle sucks and that a fighter is the strongest tiny class ship do to the net 15 hp over the racer at a cost of -1 bp and that the explore is just worse then the Transport 90% of the time.

So i was looking at base frames and then i saw the upgrading the ship and saw weapon mounts and realized i was unsure what frames were worth so thought i would break it down, and figued i might as well share what i learned.
so first the information on the value of different mounts. from what we know:
arcs:
light:3 BP
heavy:7 BP
capital:12 BP
turrets:
light: 5 BP
heavy: 11 BP

and the frames:

tiny:
racer:guns are worth 6 BP and the ship is 4 BP
so racer is basically -2 BP
Interceptor:guns are worth 6 BP and the ship is 6 BP
so an interceptor is basically free
Fighter: guns are a bit hard on this one as it has a unquie rule but we can asume there are 2 case eather you can use the one tracked or you cant in your build, if you can its BP of the guns is 9, if you cant the BP of the guns is 6. this ship is 8 BP.
so if you can use them the ship is -1BP net cost and if you cant the ship cost 2 BP

Small:

shuttle:the gun is worth 3BP and the ship costs 6
so shuttle costs a net 3BP(this ship sucks)
Light Freighter guns are worth 12 BP and the ship cost 10
net gain of -2BP

medium:
Explorer:guns worth 14 BP and this ship costs 12
net cost of -2 BP
Transport:guns worth 23 BP and ship costs 15
net cost of -8 BP

Large:
Destroyer: guns cost 28 ship cost 30
net cost of 2 BP
Heavy Freighter:guns worth 27 ship costs 40
net cost of 13 BP(rather bad mostly paying for more expation bays)

Huge:
Bulk Freighter:guns cost 24 ship cost 55
net cost of 31 BP
Cruiser: guns cost 29 ship cost 60
net cost of 31 BP(hmm so 20hp, 5 increase, and 50 max crew is worth 4bays?)

Gargantuan:
Carrier:guns 64 BP cost 120 BP
net cost of 56 BP
Battleship: guns 85 BP cost 150 BP
net cost of 65 BP

Colossal:
Dreadnought:guns 124 BP cost 200bp
net cost 76 BP

this kind of outlines how good and bad each ship is in the game assuming it uses all of its gun slots.

another note is that it might be easier to let mind-blades use solaria weapon crystals as currently you are behind advanced weapons by quite a bit at the higher levels. also this lets you balance the cost and level of the mind blade for the point of fusions.

oh yeah the lower levels are going to suck hard, even harder then you are even stateing as the is a +3kac gap in a few points. As to the Starknife thing you are very right, what i get for not reading enough. on to the saves again you are right but will will not be effected then so its just +2 reflex, not super. on to the step up thing, sorry a typo i missed way to late. ok on to back to the solar blade vs solar armor yeah that is likely the right path was just trying to compare apples to apples rather then oranges that overall fixes alot of the problems but gives you no open feat comparatively. ok on to the last point black force Field is 2 slots you are correct but i still would likely take it over thermal capacitor as 3 fast healing is more often then not better then 5 energy resistance, sadly so can the heavy armor form leading to a net gain of 0 for the light armor.

ok and to the conclusion you make yeah it was more a thought experiment and the question really was does it ever really pull head, the answer is not with solar weapon and going highest damage it does not, on a more aggressive "Versatile build" its a bit head in the mid levels but just like solar it goes MAD as hell, its not sane nor safe at low levels and would only really recommend even thinking about it in a as a late start to replace a death in the 7-14th level range if you cant or don't want to resurrect or i guess Mnemonic Editor works to but i hate that item, but anyhow you that's my 2credits. only major thing learned from redoing someone elses work is that Force fields are dope if you dont need a billion actions you have to do at the start of combat.

PS:only major solution would be to have weapon finesse for damage and hit and i think that defeats the point of the new system in most ways.

concentration is no longer a cheak fyi

after running the numbers vs Example Melee Stat block at 6th(which i might note is kind of shitty for both of us and 7 would be more useful)

with the dex vs chr trade and heavy armor for step up and then at 7 step up for Extra resolve. we see a net change:
+1 init
defense:
-1 EAC,-2 KAC,and +1 reflex,-1rp
offence:
+5ft
-1 DC,+step up,+1 to hit on starknife
Stats(irreverent)
Skills:+3 acrobatics,+2 Athletics ,-1 Diplomacy
Special Abilities:
+step up,-1 DC
feats:
-heavy armor,+step up
Equipment:
-Golemforged Plating III, +D-suit II
spending:+1,400 but still under expected value.

at this point not looking great but rather close.

lets try looking at level 12:
+1 init
defense:
-1 EAC(-2 with shield),-2 KAC,+10 temp hp,+3fast healing,-1 reflex,+1 will
offence:
+5ft
-1 DC,+step up,+1 to hit on starknife
Stats(irreverent)
Skills: +3acrobatics,+2 Athletics,-1 Diplomacy
Special Abilities:
-1 DC
feats:
-heavy armor,extra resolve
Skyfire armor, Exident (53,600), Graviton crystal, lesser (24,000), Sintered Starknife (9,810) plus Returning Fusion (2300), Personal Upgrade +4 Str (6,500), Personal Upgrade +2 Dex (1,400), Thermal Capacitor, MK1 (3,600), Haste Circuit (9,250), Forcepack (13,100), Infrared Sensors (200), Phase Shield (4,325), Dermal Plating Mk 1 (3,025), Standard Speed Suspension (8,800), Wide-spectrum Ocular implant (2,825), Tympanal cluster (2,150), Ring of Resistance +2 (4,200)
Spent: 149,085/150,000
vs
Equipment:
D-suit IV(45,800), Graviton crystal, lesser (24,000), Sintered Starknife (9,810) plus Returning Fusion (2300), Personal Upgrade +4 Str (6,500), Personal Upgrade +2 Dex (1,400), Thermal Capacitor, MK1 (3,600), Haste Circuit (9,250), Forcepack (13,100), Standard Speed Suspension (8,800),Tympanal cluster (2,150), Ring of Resistance +1 (735),Advanced(9000),Dermal Plating Mk 1 (3,025),Force field, black(10,500)
Spent: 149,970/150,000

at this point they are very close, skills and force field vs a bit of Eac and kac, saves ballanced, vs strong reflex weaker will and +5ft vs +1 dc... not really sure what is better.

at higher level you can expect the EAC and KAC gap drop or stay the same skills to be higher with dex and dc to be higher with chr.

Tatavath wrote:

i would like to note that weapon focus is better then 5% in increase in damage per round. if for example you have a 20% chance of hitting(very low) going to 25% chance of hitting is a 25% more damage and at the other end of the spectrum if you have a 70% chance of hitting(rather high) going to 75% chance is 5/70 more damage which in both cases is more then 5% more damage. in fact the only case its about 5% more damage is near the cap 90% to 95% is 5/90 and that is 5.5% more damage. now this does not take into count crits but if you do 20% chance to hit changes to 15% chance to hit and 5% chance to do double damage which works out to and expected value of 25% damage vs a 30% expected value which is still a 20% more damage multiplier and near cap it goes from 95% damage to 100% damage which is exactly that 5% increase in damage you note.

this is mostly semantics but more me commenting increase vs more and there common miss use.

Your analysis is basically correct, although you are neglecting critical hits. Going from a 20% chance of hitting includes the 5% chance of double damage in a critical, so the relative damage increase is only 20%, not 25%.

I.e. 1 time in 20 you get double damage, 3 times in 20 you get single damage, and 16 times in 20 you get no damage, becomes 1 time in 20 you get double damage, 4 times in 20 you get single damage, and 15 times in 20 you get no damage.

6/5 = 1.2 or a 20% increase.

This is why in the guide under weapon focus, I merely state that it affects 1 in 20 rolls. I.e. 19 out of 20 times, you won't notice a difference in the outcome. It changes a roll of 1 under their AC into exactly hitting their AC, so 1 in 20 times. Assuming you swing 6-10 times in a fight (say 6 rounds of combat), this will come up roughly 1 time every two to three fights. That description is easier for some people to visualize I feel, and also reinforces the fact that its a bursty increase as opposed to a constant increase.

I do mention a 5% increase...

yes it was the section on penetrating attack, but its less of a problem that you did it and more of a pep eave of mine that that people commonly make that mistake, sorry to lash out abit just started to bother me over time and thought i would say something somewhere about that. sorry. and yeah i did say i was neglecting crits, mostly as its simpler to do so.

as to your second statment I would have to say that the +1 when you already have a ranks of nearly 13 and so on is also relativly negligiable and going threw diminished returns at that point, save dc on the other hand is rather important on will and fortitude saves as they are a hit or miss system rather then partial effect but reflex is less of a problem as you still get quite a bit of value. i kind of address this in my 3rd post in a row(sorry kept just thinking of things to talk about) and the net sum of my conclusion is con sucks a lot now and the more relilitic question is of dex and again that is capped in value largely by max dex modifier of armor which in heavy is +4 and in light is +6 most of your lifespans which basicly means you can lose 2 dc on your saves and 2 rp for +2 init,+2 on dex skill(generally a little better in combat) and +2 on your reflex and a open feat but this is just in the level range from 10-20 at lower levels the you really want that +2 RP most of the time as you have a smaller pool. At this point i think con is dead and you would rather just have dex or chr and neither is that different and is more of a flex choice with some trades.

now that i think about it, it large boils down to Glow of Life at level x3 as hit points return on RP we are looking more at the question of encounters per day. at 1 encounter 1 RP is worth 3 stm per level and con is only 1 stm per level, at 2 encounters con is still only 2 per level and at 3 encounters 1 RP is worth still more then 3 for con as its more versitile only after 4 encounters do you really start to gain more from con...
wow con sucks now. i guess look at dex vs RP is the more unclear way to look at this then. but that largely boils down to max dex bonus of armor and for most of your lifespand in heavy armor you max out at +4.

also i do have a question, do you really think that one RP at level 10 is worth more then 10 Stamina? 7 RP vs 8 RP at level 10 does not seam like much of a difference worth 10 stamina. also the same question could be noted again at level 15 with dex. more Im haveing trouble seeing how at higher levels chr is worth more then dex or con, at low levels going from 4 to 5 i think the point is very valid.

i would like to note that weapon focus is better then 5% in increase in damage per round. if for example you have a 20% chance of hitting(very low) going to 25% chance of hitting is a 25% more damage and at the other end of the spectrum if you have a 70% chance of hitting(rather high) going to 75% chance is 5/70 more damage which in both cases is more then 5% more damage. in fact the only case its about 5% more damage is near the cap 90% to 95% is 5/90 and that is 5.5% more damage. now this does not take into count crits but if you do 20% chance to hit changes to 15% chance to hit and 5% chance to do double damage which works out to and expected value of 25% damage vs a 30% expected value which is still a 20% more damage multiplier and near cap it goes from 95% damage to 100% damage which is exactly that 5% increase in damage you note.

this is mostly semantics but more me commenting increase vs more and there common miss use.

stats as they stand right now are very clearly dex>>str>wis,int>con>chr in a skill relevant game as skills go down in value int,wis and chr all drop. dex>>str>>con,wis,int>>chr is what in most cases that would look like. now if we just remove initiative from dex its value drops some to
dex>str>wis,int>con>chr and dex>str>>con,wis,int>>chr respectively which clearly is a bit better but removing wis to will and adding it to chr basically just swaps there places and done nothing to fix the problem, hell even adding initiative to any of the mental stats only bumps them up one tier not really fixing the problem.
Simply adding chr mod to current RP is really not that bad, at low level and gets less value with levels but that is fine. we end up with something like dex>str>wis,int>con,chr and dex>str>>con,wis,int,chr with both the initiative change and the RP bonus.
At this point i would like to not that con only kind of sucks because of the common or lack there of of common fortitude saves in the current starfinder as fortitude goes up con goes up in value a lot. say for example that fortitude was as common as will saves then we are looking at a system thats like dex>str>con,int,wis>chr and dex>str>con>wis,int,chr which is not really that bad.
also dex takes quite a hit if we lower the prevalence of reflex saves just a bit(like 10-20%) we see dex>str>con,int,wis>chr where the step between dex and str is more of a half step. and if we added the initiative to the weakest stat(chr) we get to like a 3 tier system of something like dex>str>chr,con,int,wis, as long as skills matter quite a bit. now chr getting initiative is mechanically strong but makes no sense thematically so that is a problem.
Im sure you can bring them all closer then this but most of the problem at this point is that what do you give them? like the logic of things starts to break down at this point. simple things that might work are combining skills, this weakens Int a bit but over all strengthens the skills that are effected. also this is looking at things in a black box, the more people that have heavy armor the less dex>str and the more str>dex.
But if this is mostly just about solarsians and chr as there primary stat just swap it to constitution and like half the problem goes away, yes con is much weaker then it was in pathfinder but its still a stat that they want and they go from being 4 stated to 3 stated nearly instantly with that simple change.

the only think i would like to note is that Improved Mind Blade [Psionic, Combat] is likely a bit to linear in damage growth a lower levels when compared to Solarian's Solar Weapon. Not sure on really math here or if you want it to be better then solar weapon. just noteing a conflict in growth rate.

Have you considered simply making powerful build which is the main reason for the +1 LA a feat for everyone? you Could easily make a matching one that works the other way around like small build or so and make it so everywhere being small is better (aka AC tight spaces armor mass...) they get that instead, now there might have to be some limitations on races and make it a 1st level only feat as it makes little sense to instantly grow or shrink just because you when up in level. this would be both balanced and vary helpful to a lot of builds not just psionics.