The old thread completely disappeared on me until I went into your profile, Qunnessaa! It might help to ping rdknight separately to find this again, just in case.
I'll get an introductory Tabs post up ASAP.
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She has at least two moms, possibly three depending on how you count it, so there's ample blame to go around. Her dad, too, I guess, though my current headcanon regarding him is that he's tremendously unperceptive and has no idea what his wife and daughter are.
I blame her, too!
That happened when I made my first thread. They might be able to fix it, but it took long enough for me that I just made a new gameplay thread and reassociated the discussion thread with it.
Sorry, I thought I responded to this. Yes, let's get to it! I don't need to nail down my background in precise text.
Rules lawyer! We got a rules lawyer here! Tabitha may grow to love maskcessorizing yet.
Hey, Tabs knows how to use swords! Just not that sword.
--- Also, I have good ideas for fancy, ostentatious things my silksworn gal can wear on her wrists, head, and feet, but eyes I'm struggling with since I don't imagine that she wants to be constantly masked. Something like this could be tremendous fun, though.
Tabitha's gestalt build should be up and running. I still need to buy things, but this should give a good sense of what shenanigans she can do.
Funnily enough after trolling around the boards for a while, I found the original designer of the Nornkith talking about porting it to Unchained! It was basically what I spelled out above, with the justification that it had been cut for word count not conversion problems. I'm going to tank Tabitha's wisdom because giving her a serious weakness and flaw to overcome is going to be fun from both a character and a mechanical persepctive. She's going to be strong, smart cookie who looks like a cinnamon roll but will actually kill you and is a total space cadet.
Yes, it makes it arcane, which is pretty appropriate. The Occultist takes a bit of getting used to, but if I don't shuffle around the mental stats too much, it will be easy to start with 4-6 mental focus and therefore a +2 enhancement bonus to strength (physical enhancement), a +1 resistance bonus to saves (warding talisman), and possibly a +1 insight bonus to Perception (third eye). Then I'll have a bit of on-demand baby DR (mind barrier), an on-demand magic fist (legacy weapon), bonuses to core d20 rolls (sudden insight), minor illusions (minor figment), extra speed (sudden speed), four cantrips, and four 1st-level spells. It's quite the 1st-level package to pair with a charisma-based monk who can already bypass DR/silver, always acts in the surprise round, and attack twice at full BaB. The Nornkith Unchained Monk / Silksworn Occultist is looking pretty interesting to me...and dips can still happen.
One final possibility and then I swear I'll stop looking at alternate Side Bs. I'm clearly a sucker for the occult classes. The flavor for this one would be that these garments are passed down from the Circle of the Sable Rose and imbued with the powers of her mothers and aunts. And wouldn't you know, that works really well. There's no problem with being unable to wear armor because monk. More mental focus, more implements, more spells known, more skills (with massive bonuses), built-in subterfuge shenanigans, etc. So many strong options.
Aha, I understand not being a fan of pet classes. It does have a tendency to bend the action economy. I have a similar feeling about summoning, which is why even when I build classes that are designed to be effective summoners (like druids) I shy far away from cluttering the battlefield with summoned creatures and pretty exclusively use them for specific tactical reasons (like when Brental sought to wreak havoc at the bandit's fort in Kingmaker). Re: Phantom Questions:
1) That makes sense. Now that I actually found it, this is one of the few questions that Paizo actually answered.
Paizo made the right call in 2E to fold Phantoms into Eidolons and Spiritualists into Summoners. 2) Groovy.
For saying you were grumpy, that did not feel antipathetic at all. Re: Monk Questions -- Huzzah on all accounts! --- Gumming Up the Works Part One (Non-Phantom Spiritualist Archetypes):
I will note that there are three spiritualist archetypes that replace the phantom entirely:
So that if we don't want to futz with a pet, all of those questions become moot. I'm most focused on bringing the PC to life than in any particular mechanical stuff. The core details for her are that she has this peculiar lineage and is fighting against a fate written for her by her mothers' coven before she was born. Whether her night hag progenitor gets to make physical or strictly mental appearances is immaterial. --- Gumming Up the Works Part Two (I'm not attached to the Spiritualist):
It's not even strictly necessary to have the hag aspects show up as class features at all. But if they can, then it makes sense as a Side B to the Nornkith Monk instead of just being a class tacked on for reasons.
That does come back to stuff with bloodlines, and why the hag-riven bloodrager was initially attractive for the character. But the hag bloodline is unfortunately still terrible, which is why I looked for more fey influence and became enamored with the idea of having a norn in the coven alongside a night hag. The Witch as a class feels too on the nose. But, just to gum up the works a little more, here are a few more Side B ideas:
--- Re: Aura of Resolve --> Anchoring Aura and archetype-stacking, that's a resounding yes from me. Planar Ally is cool, but it's either easy to abuse or easy to hamstring depending on the GM's mood. Re: Trapfinding sidegrades: I'll admit that Sylvan Trickster is the most appealing, as it leans pretty effectively into the growing coven nature of this little triumvirate.
"You betcha!"
Questions About the Phantom:
1) Can a Phantom wear armor? There is a conflict between two sections in Occult Adventures: Fully manifested phantoms can wear armor and use items (though not wield weapons) appropriate to their forms. Any items worn, carried, or held by a phantom are dropped when the phantom returns to the spiritualist’s consciousness, and must be retrieved and donned anew if the phantom wishes to use them when it fully manifests in the future. An ectoplasmic or incorporeal manifested phantom can’t wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the spiritualist’s connection with the phantom; a phantom may seem to be wearing armor, but this appearance is just an illusory part of its appearance. Which of these feels appropriate? To add to this, there is one more relevant citation about magic items:
Magic items interfere with a spiritualist’s connection to her phantom; as a result, the spiritualist and her phantom share magic item slots. For example, if the spiritualist is wearing a magic ring, her phantom can wear only one magic ring. In the case of a conflict, the items worn by the spiritualist remain active, and those worn by the phantom become dormant. The phantom must possess the appropriate appendages to utilize a magic item. What if the Phantom takes Light Armor Proficiency as a feat? I’m assuming a phantom in ectoplasmic form at this point, not incorporeal. --- 2) What is the Phantom’s armor bonus?
The number noted here is the increase to the phantom’s natural armor bonus when it manifests as an ectoplasmic creature, and its deflection bonus when it manifests as an incorporeal creature. However, in the Phantom starting statistics, it provides the following: AC +2 dodge (in incorporeal form) or +2 natural armor (in ectoplasmic form) Finally, in the Incorporeal explanation, it says: It gains the incorporeal subtype, including a deflection bonus to AC equal to its Charisma modifier. This checks out with the entry on the incorporeal subtype. Excluding the possibility of magic items or other ways to increase the phantom’s Charisma score, the highest that the base phantom’s charisma score can be (if all 3 ability score increases are applied to Cha) is 24, for a deflection bonus of 7. However, the armor bonus chart clearly outpaces this. If anything, those bonuses only match from levels 2-4. This leads me to believe that the phantom receives a dodge bonus in incorporeal form equal to its natural armor bonus in ectoplasmic form, and that it also gains a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma modifier. (Of course, this is relatively moot, as it can’t be hit by non-magical attacks in incorporeal form. But I digress.) ---
Unlike other incorporeal creatures, an incorporeal phantom can’t attack corporeal creatures, except to deliver touch-attack spells using the deliver touch spell ability. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal or incorporeal. This ability does not allow the phantom to share abilities that aren’t spells, even if they function like spells. ---
A phantom gains a number of skill ranks equal to 2 + its Intelligence modifier per Hit Die. This is clearly incorrect. With a -2 modifier to Intelligence, the phantom is gaining 2 skill points per Hit Die, which is 4 + Int. The phantom also gains two class skills based on its emotional focus. The phantom automatically gains bonus ranks in these two skills as the spiritualist increases in level—its number of ranks in these skills is always equal to its number of Hit Dice. So properly, the phantom should be listed as getting 6 + Int skill ranks like any other Outsider, although two of these ranks are locked in and accounted for by its emotional focus. Finally: It’s a very small thing, there is an error in the phantom’s 9th level skills, which should read 14 instead of 24. ---
It’s a small thing, but the phantom does not gain incorporeal flight until the spiritualist reaches 9th level. How exactly does it move until then? Does it just incorporeally walk, or levitate a bit off the ground? Incorporeal creatures can’t fall or take falling damage. It’s silly, but what happens to an incorporeal phantom that walks off a building before its spiritualist is level 9? Does it just float, or does it feather fall? ---
A fully manifested phantom is treated as a summoned creature from the Ethereal Plane, except it is not sent back to the Ethereal Plane until it is reduced to a negative amount of hit points equal to or greater than its Constitution score. Whenever her manifested phantom takes enough damage to send it back to the Ethereal Plane, as a reaction to the damage, the spiritualist can sacrifice any number of her hit points without using an action. Each hit point sacrificed in this way prevents 1 point of damage dealt to the phantom. But the Phantom doesn’t go back to the Ethereal Plane until it is reduced to its negative Con score. So can I not use the Etheric Tether until it is going to be reduced to its negative Con score, or can I use it to prevent it from going unconscious? Also, just a weird thing: does the Phantom lie unconscious on the ground during this time? If so, does it also make Constitution checks or bleed out? Can I pull it back into my consciousness? And if I do, does it stabilize? When I re-manifest it later, does it resume bleeding out? ---
The typical phantom has the follow Starting Statistics: Type Outsider (phantom); Size As spiritualist or one size category smaller (or one size category larger, if the spiritualist is Small or smaller); Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 dodge (in incorporeal form) or +2 natural armor (in ectoplasmic form); Attack 2 slams (1d6 or 1d4 if size Small); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 13. Anger boosts Strength by +2 and gives a -2 penalty to Dexterity. And then... The hag phantom starts with a +2 bonus to Strength and Intelligence. So I believe that an Angry Hag Phantom should be: Type Outsider (phantom); Size Medium; Speed 30 ft.; AC +2 dodge (in incorporeal form) or +2 natural armor (in ectoplasmic form); Attack 2 slams (1d8); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 9, Wis 10, Cha 13. With skills in Intimidate, Survival, and presumably Bluff since she provides a Skill Focus (Bluff) to Tabitha. At least one more skill point, possibly more depending on the ruling on the Phantom's total skill points and Mommy Dearest's Intelligence bonus.Rather than gaining Power Attack as a bonus feat, it should probably get Powerful Maneuvers in keeping with the Elephant in the Room stuff. Like I said, the Spiritualist is kind of a mess as a class. --- Unchained Nornkith Monk:
One of the key features of the Unchained Monk is that locked-in powers (Slow Fall, High Jump, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Abundant Step, Diamond Soul, Quivering Palm, and Empty Body) became Ki Powers that could be chosen. Those Powers were originally gained at Levels 4, 5, 8, 11, 12, 13, 15, and 19. There were 8 total. By comparison, the Unchained Monk gets Ki Powers at even levels starting at Level 4, and gets 9 by 20. The closest I could figure for a port over was taking the Forced Power from the Chained Monk and replacing the Ki Power from the Unchained Monk at the appropriate levels. The uncontroversial changes:
The fiddly bits:
And other unchained stuff unrelated to the Nornkith: Slow Fall, High Jump, and Wholeness of Body are ki powers that can be selected from 4th level onward, and so are easily replaced as empty slot TBD ki powers. Similarly, Diamond Body and Abundant Step (originally Lv 11 and 12) can now be selected from 8th level onward. Another easy conversion to empty slot TBD ki powers. All told, then the Unchained Nornkith receives the follows powers at the following levels:
And one day when she is a norn, she will RULE ALL OF FATE.
Oh quite the contrary, I have simply been exploring all of the (charisma-based) hag- and fey-related archetypes while trying to truly craft this concept. This isn't even her final form. But Tabitha is now looking like she will be an Unchained Nornkith Monk on Side A and a Hag-Haunted Fractured Mind Spiritualist on Side B. If I do dip from either side, it will most likely be for story reasons. For instance, the Hag-Riven Bloodrager arises as a result of an interrupted Calling ritual. Similarly, fey influence (for good or ill) could interrupt her hag-mother-self-phantom-true-self continued growth. But the build is full BaB with all good saves, a d10 hit die, 4 skills, 6th-level arcane casting from the spiritualist list, and most skills as class skills. She'll probably primarily wield a scythe (because hell yeah), while keeping a waveblade and sansetsukon (i.e., her nornstaff) as backups. She can always punch people. Or claw them to death. She might start punching or clawing more later. --- There are a few fiddly bits to work out:
But if this works the way I think it will Tabitha will not only be an effective character, but a compelling one (with plenty of leeway from the GM to torture her).
Gawrsh, it seems like our little Helikian experiment has really drawn in the elves with designs on those pesky Sevenarches druids. Maybe Tabitha is a changeling half-elf...no mechanical difference, just working through some of that sylvan goodness.
In the interest of full disclosure, I'm now looking at a handful of other possible Side Bs for the Gestalt shenanigans. They're all Charisma-based, and the latter 3 increase the skills to 6 + Int instead of 4. The Fey Trickster would give her all good saves, while the other three at least patch her crappy Will save. I'm also picking up anywhere between 7 and 16 new class skills, which may even allow for the reshuffling of traits that were mainly taken to pick up class skills I wanted her to have from Level 1 . --- I realize now that opening up the gestalt has led to yet more indecisiveness on my part, so I invite feedback on my poor tortured changeling's likely development.
Let's get weird!
I love basically everything to do with the Magaambya, mechanics and lore alike. I have a Halcyon Druid active right now who is basically aiming to become the ultimate hierophant. --- I've been chatting some of this with Qunnessaa, but Tabitha also has strong associations with the Eldest, especially the Lantern King, Count Ranalc, the Lost Prince, and Shyka (approximately in that order). So having a bit of Eldest flavor is going to be strong. Is Xys absolutely sworn to Yuelral, or could she be convinced to give Magdh or Imbrex a shot? --- I'm currently running two investigators (Petyr and Olenna) and they're a lot of fun. See here where with minimal buffing she did 58 damage in one round. She can become an absolute monster if she needs to. --- One other thing I want to check. Nornkith does not remove the monk's usual alignment restriction. The thing standing in the way of Tabitha going bloodrager/monk is the alignment thing. The requirement for monks to be lawful-aligned always struck me as silly, and even before doing away with alignment altogether in 2E Paizo removed the alignment restriction from monks. It's fairly important to Tabitha's current way of being that she is a chaotic soul. Chaotic not in terms of "hur-dee-dur I can be a murder hobo," but in terms of revolution at any cost. Yes, Nagdh and the Norn are lawful neutral, but is it truly and strictly necessary for their adherents, kith, and kin to be lawful? Or can I just let her be who she is as she engages with those who wish to manipulate her?
Limited mythic can be fine, especially if there is a certain non-aggression treaty made to limit the absolute insanity. I'm in a homebrew game right now where we're level 13 with 2 mythic tiers, and it doesn't feel like we've broken things yet. If there is care taken to actually do the ascension and mythic trials instead of just handing out tiers because "it feels like time," then there can be some natural restrictions. There are also mythic flaws. --- Agreed on Gestalt. Gestalt should ideally be done to increase versatility and durability, allowing adventuring days to last beyond 10 minutes, instead of maximizing the NOVA. A somewhat-reduced alternative to gestalt would be allowing for a free variant multiclass, with free just meaning "you don't give up feats." This allows for the flavor of a secondary class without hamstringing a person by jettisoning the feats. --- Another player: unless we invite someone else that we have all played with in the same game, it does seem like this could upset the apple cart. And to be fair, there is something excellent about having a triumvirate for a totally-not-coven... --- Anti-huzzah for the insomnia. I hope your doctor can help you figure some things out.
Eris could become a psychonaut! Or mindchemist? Definitely delve into cognatogens!
I am always down for gestalt shenanigans. I'd probably go with the Nornkith Monk as Side B.
I heard back from Sensen and unfortunately they don't think that they'll be able to join us for this jaunt.
It has been that sort of a week!
Ahem, I suppose I might not be recognized.
--- Also, it appears that this thread has been archived due to gameplay inactivity. We may want to migrate to a new thread shortly. |