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I find it kind of funny that the only nation in the Inner Sea region that cares enough about the rights of all peoples to not only define it in a governing charter but also to rigorously enforce said charter is Geb.

Definitely interesting. I like the art too. I'm also glad Paizo's not going the whole Games-Workshop/Wizards of the Coast route of literally nuking the entire setting and starting from scratch. Slight incremental change in these sorts of things I think is preferable to chucking everything in the trash bin and telling people who are upset 'you think you want that, but you don't'.

I particularly like the bit about non-evil goblinoids, and former enemies finding common ground. Also, what happened to Lastwall is strangely similar to the idea for a home campaign I had once, where agents of the Whispering Way engineered an eruption from Droskar's Crag that spread plague-tainted ash across all of Isger, killing nearly everything and reanimating them as shambling horrors. Though it was less about the horrors the living had to face, as many humanoids who were killed and raised retained their memories and free will. The players were going to be among the 'Twice-Born', and set adrift in a ruined world of perpetual twilight where even former loved ones wanted them destroyed, and people who had lost everything were left to pick up the pieces of a shattered society and try in vain to put them back together. At least now I have a canonical part of the setting to do that in, rather than having to blow up poor, tortured Isger.

The goddess of the Sun does not strike me as a likely ancient traditional deity for creatures who had always lived underground.

Especially considering her physical manifestation is the source of non-stop, agonizing pain and discomfort for the average orc, even if orcs are not natural evil I doubt 'light' and 'the sun' would have as positive connotations as they do in human society.

And honestly I'm thrilled for there to be more emphasis on non-evil orcs, I just wish they weren't so localized and confined to one specific geographic area.

Removed some posts and the replies to them. Many of the posts in this thread have gone way off topic. Additionally this is not the thread to discuss real world politics (and in fact the Paizo.com forums have a standing moratorium on political threads).

I would like to apologize. I did not realize when I originally spoke out that it would lead to such inflammatory back-and-forths. At certain points I lost my cool, and I am sorry.

One major difference in decolonization on Golarion, is that "whiteness" plausibly does not exist as a concept in a world where you can literally systematically oppress people for being a different species, without having to invoke specious pseudoscience as a pretense. Like, no matter how evil you are there's no reason to go so far as "people from this side of the Mediterranean are in the club, but not the people from that other side" when halflings are literally 3 feet tall and there are lizard people running around.

I figure there's no reason that those descended from Sargavan colonists might not see more of a common cause with other countries that were former parts of Cheliax (like Andoran, Nirmathas, or even Galt) than they would their former diabolist masters. I mean, Sargava was established prior to the Chelish civil war to begin with.

A plausible justification for social change here is just "the old guard dies off and is replaced by people who just don't see the value in emulating distant diabolists in order to create a less free and more unequal society." Like "the old guard refuses to yield power to those who are going to outlive them" is a pretty good way to radicalize entire generations.

To me, Sargava seemed more like the 'real' Cheliax, or at least all that was left of it, then that abomination that Thrune's cobbled together out of oppression, fear, and blind arrogance. Not everything equated with Chelish ideals were negative. Organization and perseverance can be used for good, or at least, uh, less bad. It's joked in at least in one book that while other peoples form angry mobs, Cheliaxians organize a disapproving que. Most of Cheliax's 'imperalism phase' was during the Ever-War, under the very aptly named King Haliad the Mad, so I don't necessarily think racism was central to their culture.

As for the 'Old Guard' of Sargava, old is the operative word. Lady Madrona Daugastana controls pretty much everything in Eleder, and probably by extension, Sargava, but she's also described as the oldest living colonial. She's one nasty piece of work, like a leathery Marie Antoinette wrapped in a burnt piece of bacon that vaguely resembles Joseph Stalin. I'm guessing that the 'Old Guard dying out' would just be her passing on when sheer spite can no longer stave off the cold embrace of the grave, and then everyone, Chelish and Mwangi alike, can heave a sigh of collective relief and chuck the whole colonial oppression thing in the dust bin of history now that all of Sargava is out of her wrinkly, varicosed grip.

Well, for a change of topics, I note the “Magic Warrior” archetype. Do we think this will replace Magus class, or at least push back the need for one for several books?

Well, in 1e, the magic warriors were specialized wizards who wore stylized animal masks in honour of the Ten Magic Warriors of Old Mage Jatembe. They weren't really martial based, but more wizards who blended arcane, druidic, and goodly magic, with a special focus on utilizing the spell mastery feat. Making them just mwangi magi would get rid of one of the more unique and interesting kinds of character archetypes. That and the fact the magic warrior art in the blog post isn't wearing s mask makes me sad. :(

zimmerwald1915, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to argue here. In this hypothetical fantasy world, what are you saying should be the ideal outcome? One point you're saying all those in power should be killed, the next you're saying the people in power shouldn't be challenged. What point are you trying to make? Or are you just feeling argumentative and spoiling for a fight of some kind?

Aenigma wrote:

Well, if the colonists in Sargava wish to escape but Cheliax refuses to accept them, maybe they can simply go to Taldor, Andoran, Ravounel, or Varisia?

I figure the Order of the Coil can go live in the sea.

Agreed. While still wearing their full plate. Being covered in chum with shackled ankles would also be a bold fashion choice.

Yeah, I personally don't think that inspiration from industrial-era European imperialism was a good idea, especially since several real world countries are still dealing with the effects of that. It also raises the question of why the native people weren't able to resist more easily, as there'd be little (if any) difference between how much magic the Chelaxians and Vidrians? had. I do think something like Phoenician-style colony would have made for a more interesting Sargava. But not much point lamenting that now, seeing that they've already fixed it.

All depending on context, which admittedly is unknown to all of us at the moment, 'fixed' isn't exactly the word I'd use, depending on what happens to the average Sargavan. 'Different' is what I'd say. I thought it wouldn't have needed to be said that genocide based solely on race is bad. Even a hand-wavey 'we kicked out all the white people and things are better now' seems kinda tone-deaf, but I suppose my opinion is somewhat biased.

Personally I would have preferred if Sargava wouldn't have been dissolved, that instead it would have reformed, been made more inclusive and accommodating to it's native populace, as well as had the powers of it's aristocracy reduced, and perhaps formed into some sort of a mercantile republic. Wouldn't it have been more interesting, if it could instead act as a bridge between Avistan and Garund? A unique, cosmopolitan land where North meets South? Not to mention that such a land could as well be commercially quite prosperous from such wide connections, as an outpost in the Silk Road would be in Medieval times.

Though conflict is often key to making an interesting setting, it was a big mistake to slip in some unpleasant "18/19 century European colonization of Africa" themes, especially when it almost has this form of a racial level of antagonism between Mwangi native and Chelaxian settler (which is a particularly weird thing for *humans* in this fantasy setting to be fixated on in a world with a massive amount of obviously non-human races)

It would have been much better if the Chelaxian colonization of Sargava was more based more on Phoenician/Greek/Roman colonization which would entail the incorporation of the local populace and likely an eventual cultural synthesis between the natives and the colonists.

I cannot favourite this post enough. Thank you.

Interesting idea, although I feel like the ethnic tension elements would have to be handled extremely carefully. I also think the sudden change of heart from the Baron is a little strange; while I could certainly see there being colonists sympathetic to the indigenous people, I doubt it would come from the top. Also, if the revolution came about through helping Utilinus, then why isn't he in power now? Taking Mzali and its goals into account could certainly be intriguing.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if the general sensitivity of the topics that would have to be dealt with in such an adventure path are part of the reason one wasn't done in the first place.

But kind of moot to talk about, since I highly doubt they'll create an adventure path set in the past to justify the change.

I really never got the feeling that Utilinus was the source of all the bigotry. More that it was the entrenched nobility like the aformentioned Lady Madrona, and that the Baron had far too much on his plate to deal with every issue, as they were barely scraping by. In fact, there's a very 'let's all work together because this is our home' quote from him specifically in 'Sargava, the Lost Colony'. And there's plenty of reasons for him no longer being an autocrat. He could step down for various reasons, become a member of the new governing council, or the more obvious of him dying in the Siege of Eleder.

And yeah, I wasn't suggesting Paizo try and do an AP about it. No matter how they could write it, it would make someone angry. This was more for a home game of mine. I understand there's a lot of sensitive topics, I'm just trying to rationalize the whole decolonization campaign in a way that doesn't leave me with a sour taste in my mouth. Deposing the obvious bigots and racists in power is something I can absolutely get behind, but calling leaving thousands of innocents dead/homeless/destitute and persecuted a 'righteous and justified revolution' doesn't sit well with me. Call me a racist if you want, but I don't think punishing everyone of a group for the actions of only a portion is fair.

EDIT: This is the quote I was talking about. That part about 'servants' could've been left out, but I think overall the sentiment is very positive.

We owe nearly everything we are to our Chelish forbearers, for they brought us this far. Everything that we one day hope to be—a land strong and independent—we owe to our Mwangi friends and servants. And everything else is owed to the Free Captains of the Shackle Islands, for though their price is high, they have bled to give us the freedom of choice. To say that we face challenges, both social and financial, is an understatement. But remember this: We are Chelaxians. We are Mwangi. And we will persevere!

It was probably left purposely vague so individual GMs should decide, but I think that exiling the noble class and keeping the rest of the Chelaxians would make sense. Though of course, having the issue of what to do with the colonists stay unresolved could open up a chance for interesting political conflict...

It actually gives me an interesting idea for a homebrew campaign of how the revolution plays out. I'll leave it in a spoiler tag for people who are interested. Either way, I am glad that under-utilized parts of the setting are getting more love, especially in ways that help broaden perspectives. My previous comments were meant only to address a general feeling I'd gotten, and though that feeling hasn't really been addressed in the way I would've liked, I am still glad that overall Paizo is making an effort to be more inclusive. As a society, our primary goal should be the advancement of all peoples, at the expense of none.

A part of me is glad the game is evolving and that people are excited, but honestly this is how I feel about all of this. But I guess that's just my own hang-up to deal with.