Sensten's page

Organized Play Member. 131 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 2 Organized Play characters.



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I was typing up a reply to the "What do you play" thread that got out of hand and realized I have more complex char building guidelines than I thought. On the face of it were things like "I always pick classes with a decent amount of skill points" and "Tend to have multiple archetypes and have never not multiclassed" but then I thought about why I do that and started looking at the little underlying "rules" I give myself. Which got me to wondering if anyone else had anything similar. Or dissimilar.

The criteria I give myself for making chars:

1. Make sure I fit in with the party and setting
2. Know my role(s) and contribute EFFECTIVELY and CONSISTENTLY in my chosen areas (although a little versatility is better than perfect optimization).
3. Have something to do in combat, in social situations, and in at least one other area (scouting/traps, healing, crafting, knowledges, etc). A bored player is more dangerous than a thousand enemies. Also, be able to do at least one thing that isn't reliant on expendable resources.
4. Survivability. A dead char is no good to anyone.
5. Have fun, be interesting. Once I know what I'm doing, I try to find an unusual way of accomplishing it.
6. Try to find good synergies...A trapfinder needs good WIS/DEX which also make for good ranged characters or finesse fighters who are also WIS-based classes. Knowledges tend to be easier for INT-based chars. Melee often works well with Intimidate. If I'm already maxing Bluff, what else can I use it for? Stuff like that


With regards to roles, I don't really follow the prototypical fighter/thief/mage/cleric paradigm. Rather, I view things more like a checklist of potential obstacles and ways for the group to overcome them. Not every person has to be able to overcome every obstacle but every obstacle should have at least one person who can handle it and ideally a second player who can help or handle the obstacle on their own if necessary

Obstacles:

1. Gotta deal damage. Enemies aren't going to kill themselves
2. Gotta have a way to prevent, mitigate, or restore hp, afflictions, and ability damage (especially ability damage). Prevention is often more efficient than restoration
3. Gotta have a way to deal with attackers at range, magic or mundane
4. Gotta have a way to set up enemies for attack, protect the squishies, and keep the heavy hitting enemies pinned down.
5. Gotta have a way to deal with hidden threats, e.g. sensory abilities and skills(darkvision, see invisibility, good perception, sense motive, etc.)
6. Gotta have someone who knows stuff or we stumble around like a buncha idiots
7. Gotta have someone who can deal with social situations
8. Gotta have a way to deal with and understand magic, whether enemies, items, or whatever
9. Gotta be able to navigate the environment. If you're on a boat, someone needs to know how steer the thing. If you're in a forest, or a city, or on the moon, at least one person should know how to get around safely

There are multiple means of accomplishing most of these and (as above) varying degrees of synergy effectiveness based on class/race/etc.

So what are your rules?


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Melkiador wrote:
Sensten wrote:
Matthew Downie wrote:
I don't think you can have an extradimensional space inside another extradimensional space.
What happens if you take a bag of holding/handy haversack/etc into a rope trick?
I don’t think there’s any general rule about extradimensional spaces. You just can’t mix bags of holding and portable holes.

After asking, I went looking for the answer myself and found there's actually a section on it:

Extradimensional Spaces
:
A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.


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Daring/Dashing/Drunken Detective (mix 'n match al dente...someone who likes you might call you daring, someone who hates you might call you drunken and use "detective" disparagingly)

Flair for panache and deeds. The Detective does everything with such flair! He's a showoff.

I like Knacks for both inspiration and talents. How did you do that? *Shrug* I guess I just have a knack for it

Experienced Combat, Cunning strike. The Detective has survived more than a few brawls in his time, you'd be surprised what a little experience and a lot of cunning can do

Drinkin' buddy is good. I like Homebrews as well, although it would realistically take too long to ferment. So maybe instead of Recipe Book, Fortifying Concoctions combined with a preexisting alcohol. Don't rightly know how he stands them concoctions he mixes in 'is liquor but I ain't never seen a beer do THAT before

Lucky guess and/or "A thing for details". How'd you know/remember that? Just a lucky guess? Maybe. I got a thing for details.

POCKET SAND. OBVIOUSLY GLITTERDUST IS POCKET SAND.

Sixth sense or Instinct. What's spooked you Detective? Why'd you stop? I don't know, I just have this feeling we should look a little closer at that doorway. Call it a sixth sense. (edit: OR A HUNCH)

Clever/Quick/Light Fingers for the actual disarming. Just let him work his magic, not one's got quicker fingers than the Detective, he'll make short work of that lock. Also doubles if you take Sleight of Hand.


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Before we look at your build, here are some things to think about. If you're just wanting to make something to see how much damage you can do, disregard most of this. I'm assuming you want to win.

1. Previous posters were correct, you absolutely have to win initiative.

2. They were also correct about action economy. You absolutely have to overcome it.

3. You know about their builds. Do they know yours? If I knew I was facing a magus, I'd have a ring of evasion, resist energy, and probably spell resistance too.

4. Do you know where and under what circumstances you'll be facing them? Day, night, city, forest, etc? Will you have time to buff? Is there a time limit or space limit on the battle itself?

5. Do they frequent these forums? If they do, and they didn't know about your build before...well they do now. Also they'll know any advice you receive.

6. One good thing is you can build 100% for this one fight. Nothing else matters. And you don't have to worry about conserving resources either.

Now let's look at your opponents.

1. What are their strengths? All three are likely 90-100% ranged attackers (not counting the animal companion) and all probably do massive damage. And of course that means they can full attack from wherever. How can you avoid that?

2. What are their weaknesses? Will, Fort, or Reflex saves? AC or CMD? What's the best way to target them?

3. Do they get to rebuild like you do? If so, what is their level of system mastery and strategic ability?

Let's talk about strategy.

1. Don't do what they expect. This is especially true if they know what you're playing.

2. Identify your greatest threat. This isn't necessarily the one who can do the most damage. If one of them can cripple you, or rescue his teammates, that might be the greater threat.

3. Make every action count. Be effective without being wasteful. You don't need to do 300 damage every attack. Any damage over the amount needed to kill them is wasted. Although if you go in for the kill, it needs to succeed.

4. You can't afford to trade attacks. Even if you kill three of them (counting the animal companion), you might still lose the fight. You need hit and run tactics. Also, not every attack has to kill. If you can irreparably incapacitate them, that's an effective attack.

5. Pay attention to the little things too. AoOs and readied actions are their friends not yours. What items might completely hose you if they had it and how can you adjust for that?

6. Assume that they've read all of this and have adjusted accordingly. Assume their system mastery is equal or greater than yours.

7. Manage your resources wisely. Money isn't your only resource. Actions are a resource. Feats are a resource. Health is a resource. Speaking of which, if allowed, blood money is your friend.
One potential use, if you can get access to them, is all the symbol spells. ALL OF THEM. Just wear a covered wood plank with all the spells on it. Move action remove cover, watch your enemies make 18 different saves. Well, ideally watch them fail 18 different saves. There are actually a few spells with material components that might be worth the cost even without blood money. Visualization of the Mind/Body are pretty boss

Finally, your build. There are 6 categories to look at: sensory, initiative, action economy, movement, defense, and offense. But first,

1. Effectiveness and synergy are key. What feats, items, classes give you the most bang for your buck? You know your INT is going to be high, probably DEX too. How can you leverage those for more?

2. Why sensory? Can't do anything if you can't see anything. Can't attack, can't defend. Fortunately this is one the easiest to deal with. Max perception (plus whatever resources you can squeeze into it), get see invis or true seeing and maybe scent, tremorsense, or blindsight/sense because stealth is a thing.

One potentially amazing trick here is a Goz Mask. Useful if your opponents use mist/fog spells but even better if you use them. Few people carry with them a means to see through fog by default (if you do this, be sure to choose a spell or item that they can't easily counter; bonus points if you have necklace of adaptation or similar and use debuff clouds).

3. Already touched on initiative but it's probably worth repeating. Go first or die. Kensai, as someone mentioned is a really good choice.

4. Also already talked about action economy but it's definitely worth expanding on. You'll want to spend resources boosting your action economy. If possible, take leadership. Additionally, if possible, trade the black blade for a familiar (improved). You really, really need more actions. I'm going to assume neither of those is possible. However there are various things (items especially) that you can use for a bit of a boost.

Some things give you a direct boost, e.g. quick runner's shirt, staggerproof boots, corset of delicate moves, quickened rod. A few class abilities, feats, and spells out there can help too. Too many to list really. Just pick wisely.

Then there are a few spells, feats, abilities, items (like Companion Figurine or summons) that get you some added actions. One interesting trick you could try is to purchase some dire lions (or whatever scary beastie you can buy or tame). Cast Carry Companion on all of them, put them in a glass orb. Drop the orb at the start of combat as a free action and watch your enemies freak out as a dozen fierce critters appear in front of them. Distraction, meat shields, battlefield control, damage? Check. Action? None. Just maybe, ya know, make sure you taught them not to attack you first.

Related to this, shrink item (or a security belt) can really really ruin someone's day. Make a giant double walled crate. In between the walls, put nails, ball bearings, whatever. Inside the main space? Gunpowder. Lots and lots of gunpowder (the gunsmithing feat lets you make it at 1/10 cost). With a security belt, move action remove item, free action drop, swift action GTFO, standard action boom (or reverse the swift/standard actions). You know how much gunpowder is in 10 cubic feet? It's something like 350d6 worth of fire damage (for 7000g). Low reflex save but who cares? With all that shrapnel a nice GM would up the save and radius and make it half fire, half OMG-WHAT-DID-YOU-DO?!

5. Of course you'll want a way to fly and teleport/dim door and what not but consider some alternate methods too. Etheral/incorporeal travel and earthglide can really wreck someone's day if they aren't ready for it (and there's a couple things that give it). Say you pop some fog up, hit 'em from the mists, and then they get rid of the fog only to find you've vanished. They're going to assume you're invis or teleported but then BLAM, full attack from right beneath them. You'd need tremorsense and blind-fight/improved blind-fight (conveniently found in item and spell form) to target them but they won't be able to target you back.

6. There's a reason I put these in this order and it is because most of your defense should come from good tactics. Don't let them find you and DEFINITELY don't let them catch you! This is where those movement options come in. But also fog spells, invisibility, stealth, trickery. I'm a big fan of Hide in Plain Sight and it's easier to get cousin Hellcat Stealth...just flood the area with light and watch them squint and lose track of you. Just make sure your GM follows reasonable rules for HiPS and stealthing if you go this route.

However, there's always those pesky readied actions or unlucky rolls that leave you exposed. So let's go down the list.

AC is a sucker's game, especially with a damn gunslinger as an enemy. You'll get a lot farther with mirror image and displacement. Blink would be a good option as well but it can ruin your day too. Depends on what you use, really.

DR and SR are definitely worthwhile and there are a few ways to get 'em. Resists are a little less necessary although if the sorc has a tendency toward one particular element it wouldn't hurt. Some kind of emergency healing would also be a good idea.

Obviously get good saves (although I wouldn't spend a feat on it). Consider a ring of evasion but, again, tactical positioning should prevent this. Definitely invest in a few of the items/traits that let you reroll saves.

One thing to consider here: silent image/major image/whatever. If your enemies start readying actions, a common trigger is "when x appears/attacks". A wand of silent image (ideally used by a summon or familiar) can make them waste their resources while conserving yours. Also doubles as extra defense. Flood the area with images and play Where's Waldo? except Waldo in this case is waiting to stab them when they aren't looking

7. Now the fun stuff. Offense! Some of the others have already mentioned some good damage dealing builds (and again, if your opponent's know you're a magus that could be a trap) but I'd actually recommend something else.

Usually, in cases like this, I'd say avoid the save or die stuff but in this case the Hexcrafter Magus with the slumber hex is a strong contender. Quickened Ill Omen (or someone with a wand of it) + Slumber will 9.9/10 times take someone out of the fight for at least a round. Normally that wouldn't be a super effective way of dealing with superior numbers (after all, they can still be woken up). However, IF you can squeeze a full round in for either you or a buddy, a coup de grace is practically certain death. There's an item that prevents AoO while CdGing but really what you want is to separate your enemy. Divide and conquer. Stone walls maybe or just taunt/trick them into splitting up. Alternately a good fog cover + Goz Mask. They can't wake/protect their friend if they can't find them.

Also, putting slumber on someone flying high enough can be pretty spectacular.

Alternately, look at your options and consider: what would my opponents LEAST expect me to do that still has a good chance of killing them?


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Lore/Life Shaman VMC Bard with a one level dip in dual cursed Oracle for Misfortune

Protector Familiar
Hexes: Slumber, Life link, Channel, Benefit of wisdom, Arcane Enlightenment, Fetish (Craft wonderous)
Feats: Lingering Perf., Flagbearer, Eldritch Heritage (Maestro)
Maybe feats: Deific obedience (Milani or Erastil), Scribe Scroll, Improved Eld Heritage, Divine Interference, quicken spell like ability if you can, Imp Familiar, Spirit talker (Heaven's leap is a pretty boss hex for making your party be at the right place at the right time)

Go human, take Silver Tongue to improve attitude by 3 steps instead of 2
Take Skill focusx3 instead of Feat (Since you need a skill focus for eld heritage anyway, why not get three?)

Get a Banner of Ancient Kings, Dervish Sikke, robe of arcane heritage/otherwordly kimono (same slot, just make it yourself and pay the 1.5 cost; if you can't have both, take the kimono)

Between high wisdom and bardic knowledge, you know all the things
Between life link, shield other, channel, etc, you heal all the people
Between human fcb and arcane enlightment (with judicious use of scribe scroll) you cast all the spells
Between misfortune and divine interference you stop all the crits
Between slumber, beguiling voice (via maestro bloodline), and kimono you pacify all the threats
Between inspire courage (competence-std/mve/swft), flagbearer (morale-no action), prayer (luck-std), deific obedience (sacred-no action) you buff with all the bonuses (at mid-levels it's like a +9att/+9dam/+Xsaves in the first round once bardic performance is a move or less)

Imp Eld Heritage lets you talk to everything all the time and Silver tongue lets you improve their attitude by 3 steps. Should make you a lot of friends and if combat breaks out anyway, you can buff, heal, prevent crits/missed saves, and straight up stop anything with HD < your level+2

Want more? Okay!

Blood money + glyphs of warding/symbol spells (via arcane enlightenment) turn you into a walking booby trap. Get an imp familiar that can use bows, give him designating arrows (or pheromone arrows for +2/+2 if anyone in your party has scent...or both!).

What? You want more?!

Okay!

Take Evangelist prestige class. Major skill boost at the cost of only one class level. Dweomer's Essence for a CL boost in a pinch. Clear ear for when you need a knowledge boost. If you can somehow fit it in, take Eld Heritage (Orc) and the Community minded and/or Optimistic gambler trait. +1/2lvl morale bonus to att/dam/will saves for at least 2 rounds, just give it to whichever beatstick needs the biggest damage boost.

Oh, I see, you're worried about defense. AC is a sucker's game. You want mirror image (symbol of mirroring?!), displacement, stoneskin, blink, etc. Oh, you're worried about something with true seeing?

Well, you got one last trick up your sleeve. Rememeber that dip in Oracle? Even if you only took misfortune revelation, you still have the Water Mystery. Soothsayer/ring of revelation (Water Sight) + Obscuring mist/Fog cloud/whatever. You'll lose +2 (+3 if you went milani) in buffs but almost nothing will find you in there.

Edit: I lied. There's always another trick. Ghost syrup + ghost touch gauntlets. Now you're incorporeal!


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aceDiamond wrote:
Even still, rerolling one saving throw per day isn't necessarily better than a static bonus to every time you roll a saving throw. Especially if you need to take the lower result of a reroll.

Except,

A: you would only use this when you've already failed a roll, so it wouldn't matter if it was worse

And,

B: A reroll is about equal to a static bonus of +1 if you need a 1 or a 19 to succeed, about a +2 if you need a 2 or 18, and it only increases after that.

For a trait, that's pretty boss

P.S. Here's how your chances improve if you have a reroll:
Chance of success-----(Chance w Reroll)-----(total improvement)
5.0%-------------------9.8%------------------4.8%
10.0%-----------------19.0%-----------------9.0%
15.0%-----------------27.8%-----------------12.8%
20.0%-----------------36.0%-----------------16.0%
25.0%-----------------43.8%-----------------18.8%
30.0%-----------------51.0%-----------------21.0%
35.0%-----------------57.8%-----------------22.8%
40.0%-----------------64.0%-----------------24.0%
45.0%-----------------69.8%-----------------24.8%
50.0%-----------------75.0%-----------------25.0%
55.0%-----------------79.8%-----------------24.8%
60.0%-----------------84.0%-----------------24.0%
65.0%-----------------87.8%-----------------22.8%
70.0%-----------------91.0%-----------------21.0%
75.0%-----------------93.8%-----------------18.8%
80.0%-----------------96.0%-----------------16.0%
85.0%-----------------97.8%-----------------12.8%
90.0%-----------------99.0%-----------------9.0%
95.0%-----------------99.8%-----------------4.8%
100.0%---------------100.0%----------------0.0%

Static bonuses add 5% per 1 point, for reference


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Hey there folks. Some of you all may have seen Broken Zenith's "How to round out your party" spreadsheet. I liked the idea so much I went and made my own. All credit goes to him for the idea and the basic layout.

Party Picker v2.0

Just pick one of the classes with the highest scores at the right of the screen. As you pick, the scores change. It calculates scores based on fulfilling party roles (traditionally filled by the cleric/fighter/rogue/wizard paradigm) as well as partially based on TarkXT's post here: On building a balanced group

It also assumes a four person party, but you can continue to add members to the group. After four people, it goes negative but as before, look for the biggest number (-1 > -2 > -3, etc.).

The second best thing is this: on the second tab (located near the bottom), you alter the ratings to fit your idea of how each class performs. If you don't think a barbarian rates a 5 in melee, change it to whatever you think is appropriate. Although, keep in mind that even though a character may carry both a greatsword and a longbow, he will primarily use one or the other. If you feel he uses both equally, you may want to adjust the ratings slightly to compensate for having two categories of DPR.

The best thing is this: you can add your own custom builds to cover what's not already there. You have a multiclass sorc/monk/gunfighter? Enter it in there and add your ratings and it will not only adjust the party scores, but it'll give you a rough idea of how your character rates in comparison to other builds. Just scroll down to the bottom of the builds on the second tab and add the class name, the build name, and the ratings.

Feel free to offer advice/critiques/questions. If something doesn't seem right, maybe it isn't. There may still be some tweaking to be done in the formulas.

Now, google spreadsheets does not support conditional formatting, but the original file makes it much easier to see which recommended builds are highest and color codes the builds into four rankings. If you want the original file, go here: Original

P.S. If you do think the ratings aren't right, please correct them and send me the corrected ratings. With enough people's ratings, I can recalibrate the Party Picker for greater accuracy. I'm also working on some other tools and could use some beta testers. One is a spreadsheet that shows character progression from level 1 to 20, including hp, ac, dpr, etc.