Sear N. Rivers's page

What are the rules for creating a construct as a Wizard? When looking at construct creatures I only see the GP price listed with them in their entry. Nothing explaining the process of actually making one.

It was 41 RP when finished. And it was made for a specific campaign. It's not something I plan to always allow for.

Greetings all. Was just wondering if there was a general rule of thumb for converting and figuring a gold piece cost for purchasing exotic mounts that can be combat trained. In this particular campaign, the players are dealing with Nordic creatures and tribes. So we're trying to calculate cost for a dire-wolf made into a mount. We're also advancing the creature slightly to make it more suitable as a combat mount for the important Norsemen NPCs and higher level player characters.

But trying to figure this out, it made me wonder. I see costs all the time for finding creatures in markets and then additional gold costs for having it be trained. How are these calculations figured? And if there isn't a regular means to calculate it, where can I get started for figuring one?

Just so everyone knows, I'm aware that dire wolves and other dire animals are listed as being too wild to truly domesticate. And that dire wolves can be bought just a static as is animal for 380 gp. But for the sake of the idea for the campaign, how could this become workable?

Thanks!
- S.N. Rivers

That is a much better analogy! Thanks! It's dramatically easier to understand how things can be imbalanced between races. Because a file can be 41MB in size, but still be far less quality than even another of 25MB.

If the other players are creating their own races and are reasonably good with the mechanics, you should be OK because they will take abilities that best complement their concepts (both thematically and mechanically). The gargoyle is solid for its RP value as well - probably a bit behind the giant, but you could have a lot of fun with four primary natural attacks and the fly speed is good enough to be useful even after the Fly spell is available.

Just note that while the nordic giant isn't "crazy" it's very well put together mechanically as well as thematically, which means that if someone makes a very thematic race that isn't mechanically strong they might be overshadowed.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

A giant's strength though is traditionally found purely in his or her stats.

This is true, but those are really good stats and stats are really valuable in this game.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

In reality, not all creatures are balanced and equal. But they all come from the same genetic guidelines. A strand of double helix DNA. For this game, that same concept is given, but that DNA is 41 or less RP. Lol.

That's... not how DNA works. And the race builder system, unlike DNA, is theoretically supposed to produce races that are of similar power to races with similar race point values.

DNA is always found in the same structure, the double helix strand. It's just a matter of how the chromosomes and ameno acids of the DNA falls. I see what you're saying though. While a house fly's DNA is structured like a human in shape, it's contents are quite obviously vastly different. So that could fit what you're arguing. The "thematic" component is there and is good. Flies are perfectly designed for their intended purpose of garbage removal. But the "mechanic" component falls short, because obviously a human is far more capable in the world. That's what you're saying, or at least in the general ball park, right?

Also, I was wondering if you, or any of the others who had posted so far, would be willing to look at the races created by the players and I and would cretique them? I can make a new thread for that too, if you think that would be the right way to go about it.

- S.N. Rivers

Meh, you can do better than a few at-will spells too. That's going to fall off as you level, though it's certainly nice early on.

The problem with the mismatched races comes in when one guy's playing a Half-Orc Fighter, and then somebody else brings a Tribal Giant Fighter. Neither have to be optimized or about the "rollplay" (though really, Stormwind fallacy ahoy), but one of them is clearly going to be much better for the role. That can leave one player feeling useless very quickly.

Which is why I asked what races your players were using-- what they have available is immaterial, what they're actually using is what matters.

One of them plans to be the Nordic Giant (I renamed it as I feel Nordic fits better for how I described them.) Another is playing as an awakened Gargoyle. Our third wants me to build an undead that he described as being like "the white walkers" from Game of Thrones. Only able to communicate with standard races. And our forth player is creating a subspecies of elf designed to eventually cross the Rogue class and "Thurge" 3PP class. I felt that this mix was fairly diverse and that since they're all playing what they wanted, it would be enjoyable for everyone.

I do see what you're saying though. Playing a human compared to any of these races would almost certainly be discouraging at times. But they're aware of the limits and my players almost always discuss how what each of them makes could be used with the rest of the party. So I'm not worried.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

Auren "Rin" Cloudstrider wrote:

actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.

even without that, abilities within the standard menu aren't entirely balanced against other abilities from the standard menu. +2 to a single skill costs twice as much as a passive +2 to will save or is equal in price to a +1 natural armor bonus, when the skill bonus is nowhere near as good as both of them.

I do see what you're saying here. If you used the RP purely for making something that is overpowered, you can easily make an unbalanced race. Most of my players wouldn't build a race to overcome all the others. We typically have a specific concept already in mind. Then webuild up the race to match said cconcept without giving the race something that the concept shouldn't have. But I do see where you are coming from. If someone wanted, they could have at-will mage armor, shield, shield of faith, barkskin, and Cat's grace. And all of that would only be around 14RP. Tack on greater defensive training and damage reduction with improved damage reduction for another 10 and you have one seriously OP race with just 24 RP being spent.

But this isn't Dr. Gerro's laboratory. Lol. My players make things they like for role-playing purposes. They know better. And they know I'd reject a crazy build like the one I mentioned earlier anyway. Haha.

I think it's much stronger than the drow noble - and a good example of how the race builder breaks down.

Let's look at the stats.

The base advanced array for the giant (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha) is better than the advanced array for the drow noble (+4 Dex, –2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha). Most combat characters will benefit significantly from +2 to each physical stat. However, characters that make good use of even two of the mental stats are rare, so +2 to each mental stat is not that useful to any individual character. +4 Wis benefits a good subset of the characters that like +2 to physical stats - fighters and barbarians want the will save bonus, while monks and divine casters use it for their class features. For many of these characters, charisma is a dump stat, so the -2 Cha penalty is not a big deal. Conversely, the -2 Con hurts, especially for the gish characters that would get the most benefit from +4 Dex. So we're starting from a point where the giant's stats synergize much better than the drow noble.

Then you continue to improve the stats that are most relevant to the combat role - strength and constitution - at race point values that do not scale quickly compared to the increase in value of higher stats purchased using point buy, where raising a 14 to a 16 costs as much as raising a 10 to a 14. Note that even with the impaired scaling the +2 boost to strength you're getting from the Large trait would be worth 6 out of the 8 rp that Large+Reach costs (and it's pointless to look at large without reach because getting access to reach is the biggest benefit of being large). Now, there are some disadvantages to being large, but greater threat range including getting AoO on medium creatures who approach, avoiding the AoO of large creatures, plus being able to use a large greatsword for an extra 3.5 average damage... that's pretty sweet, and almost certainly worth more than +2 perception.

+3 Natural armour is in general very good value for 5 rp, and in this case it further supports...

A giant's strength though is traditionally found purely in his or her stats. In reality, not all creatures are balanced and equal. But they all come from the same genetic guidelines. A strand of double helix DNA. For this game, that same concept is given, but that DNA is 41 or less RP. Lol. I'm looking for the creativity my players show. Our group is profoundly based on role playing, not "roll" playing. If the racial concept is good, original, and makes sense; I approve it. Especially if the player's character concept and background go hand in hand with the race's make.

Weirdo laid out the detailed version, so:

Thematically? Awesome. Mechanically? Really, really good.

Now, that may or may not be a problem-- what races are the rest of your party using? If they're all 41 RP options like this, you're golden. If one's a Dwarf... less so.

Everyone was allowed to play any race with 41 RP or less, and was permitted to make their own or ask me to make one for them using a 41RP point buy. I didn't outlaw anything unless it went over 41 RP. I wanted the players to have freedom in the creation process of their characters. I'm prepared to scale the encounters they'll have.

And yes, I laid out the whole character format. I go all the way or not at all. Lol. The finished Pdf I made has a picture, and age, height, and weight tables too.

This is what I gave them while building the race...

For their basic setup, I used the following...

Power Level: Monstrous (20+ RP)
Type: Humanoid - 0 RP
Subtype: Giant
Size: Large - 7 RP
Base Speed: Normal - 0 RP
Attributes: Advanced - 4 RP (+2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Wis, -2 Cha)
Languages: Xenophobic - 0 RP (Dwarven & Giant |Base| - Common, Elven, Orc, Undercommon |Bonus|)

• Advanced Constitution - 4 RP
  
• Advanced Strength (x2) - 9 RP
  
• Fast - 1 RP
  
• Hatred - 1 RP
  
• Improved Natural Armor (x2) - 3 RP
  
• Low-Light Vision - 1 RP
  
• Natural Armor - 2 RP
  
• Reach - 1 RP
  
• Rock Catching - 2 RP
  
• Rock Throwing - 3 RP
  
• Stability - 1 RP
  
• Weapon Familiarity (x2) - 2 RP

RP Total = 41

This is what I came up with... Let me know what you all think!

Tribal Giants

Tribal giants are a strong, yet rational mountain dwellers who build grand fortresses deep in the Norther Wastes. They tend to live in the lands that border around vast peaking mountains, constructing massive wooden forts and lodges to protect the mountain peaks they deem sacred. These battle-ready warriors fiercely defend the mountain tops from other races they view as savages. Though similar to Hill giants in appearance and oversize, Tribal giants can almost always be identified by their superior posture, civilized clothing, and advanced steel forged weaponry. While a novice in their land may still mistake them for their savage Hill giant cousins, the average adventurer, seasoned traveler, or experienced merchant can always distinguish the difference.

Somewhat of an oddity, Tribal giants are a confusing mix of old Nordic code, Viking law, and Norse traditions. While they fight brutally in battle and will often times only fight to the death, they hold a strict moral guideline among their society to always be respectful to their elders, helpful to their neighbors, and protective of innocent travelers in their lands. While not exactly outwardly sociable, Tribal giants will often extend a hand and put themselves in harms way to ensure an innocent's safety while traveling through their lands.

Though they are not without their exceptions. Disgusted and revolted by the other tribal societies around them, Tribal giants feel these lesser inferior species give their own way of life a bad name. Tribal does not mean barbaric, nor does it mean save, not in their eyes. It's merely a way of life. A way of honor and dedication to live amongst nature, endure the elements, and stand one's own feet. Tribes are not bandit camps or cesspools of lawlessness. Because of this firm belief in their way of life and the bad name many other tribal societies give them by comparison, Tribal giants are often unfriendly to orcs, goblinoids, trolls, ogres, and any other form of life that regularly gives them a bad them.

Ironically, Tribal giants often seek the companionship of dwarves. Having a deep respect for the dwarven way of life and the legendary dwarven craftsmanship they've encountered, Tribal giants often associate with their other mountainous dwelling brethren. While usually not very receptive to giant-kind, dwarves will occasionally be seen in the company of Tribal giants, as they have similar goals in defending their mountain homes from the more savage species of the land. After all, the saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a saying for a reason.

Tribal giants are lovers of battle and conflict. The soul is strengthened by overcome turmoil, or so goes their saying. Because of this philosophy, Tribal giants tend to always push themselves onward and will often take on the burden of other species. Whether its risking tooth and nail to save an innocent traveler, risking life and limb to explore uncharted territory in seek of a lost traveler, or even lining up as the forward assault for a war that is not their own, Tribal giants are always seen openly accepting the challenges before them. There's little one can do to stop them from jumping into the mix.

Physical Description

Tribal giants are a massive race, built like a bodybuilder among men. Proportionately standing to the same stature of humans, merely at a much larger scale, Tribal giants are most often described as tall and slender, yet extremely lean and muscular. They are strong like others of giant-kind, however retain a more civilized sense of posture. As they live in the far North away from the sun, Tribal giants are commonly fair or pale skinned individuals. Their bodies are naturally mark-less, though during their childhood, each Tribal giant is marked with decorative tattoos of his clan, tribe, and hold to show others where his allegiance lies. They often have red, blonde, or auburn colored hair and gray, blue, or green eyes. However, darker brown and black hair is sometimes seen on a Tribal giant.

Society: The close proximity to each other as well as the over-abundance of the less civilized tribal races around them has caused Tribal giants to always band together. It is unheard of for Tribal giants to quarrel with one another over anything, and unlike many other races Tribal giants will never harm another of their kind unless that giant is from outside of their hold. Even so, many Tribal giants won't harm others of their species even outside of their hold unless absolutely forced to or otherwise given no alternative. A Tribal giant's hold comes before all else, and they will do anything and everything to protect it. Anyone deemed to be a citizen of their hold or otherwise under its protection is strongly sheltered and protected from all dangers. Tribal giants settle their debts and will never break an alliance, once it is forged.

Relations: Tribal giants are protective of humans, respectful towards elves, and outwardly friendly towards their dwarven neighbors. While dwarves are not quite as friendly back, Tribal giants are usually tolerated by the dwarven settlements, as they cause no trouble to the dwarven societies and have proven to be powerful allies on more than one occasion. However, orcs, goblins, and the savage giants of the lands are not tolerated near Tribal giant society nor the societies of the allies that fall within a Tribal giant hold. While such creatures are allowed passage through their territories, Tribal giants as a whole do hold a prejudice to these other races.

Alignment and Religion: Tribal giants tend to be lawful in the dwellings of their homeland and their hold, however retain mostly a neutral perspective outside of these regions. Unsure of outside society, they often feel compelled to just leave others as they are unless a pre-existing friendship or bond of trust has already been established. Religiously, Tribal giants share both the human and dwarven pantheon. Many Tribal giants worship Tempus, Sylvanous, or Morodin. However religion is very open to their kind and so long as it isn't devil worship, Tribal giants allow others of their kind to worship freely as each individual pleases.

Adventurers: Though extremely rare at older ages, young Tribal giants will often seek the life of the adventurer and journey out onto the open road. Around the time of their adulthood, Tribal giants undergo a pilgrimage of their people known as "the great enlightening." During this time, a Tribal giant seeks to gain understand, inner focus, and physical strength by taking the conflicts of others into his own hands. Many call these Tribal giant pilgrims "hulking mercenaries" or "giant sell-swords," but to the Tribal giant it is a time of both physical and spiritual growth.

Male Names: Asger, Calder, Elufgar, Guldbar, Hackett, Horningarr, Ingvar, Kejled.

Female Names: Alviria, Eerika, Freja, Gyldah, Helinga, Ingra, Sassa, Signy.

Standard Racial Traits

• Tribal giants gain +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Wis, and -2 Cha.

• Type: Tribal giants are humanoids with the giant subtype.

• Size: Tribal giants are Large creatures and thus take a -1 size penalty to their AC, a -1 size penalty on attack rolls, a +1 bonus to their CMB and CMD, and a -4 size penalty on Stealth checks. They take up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and have a reach of 10 feet.

• Speed: Tribal giants have a base speed of 40 feet.

• Languages: Tribal giants begin play speaking Dwarven and Giant. Tribal giants with high intelligence scores can choose from the following: Common, Elven, Orc, or Undercommon.

Defense Racial Traits

• Natural Armor: Tribal giants have a +3 natural armor bonus to their Armor Class.

• Rock Catching: Tribal giants can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, a tribal giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex saving throw to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium rock, and 25 for a Large rock (if the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount). The tribal giant must be aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.

• Stability: Tribal giants receive a +4 racial bonus to their CMD when resisting bull rush or trip attempts while standing on the ground.

Offense Racial Traits

• Rock Throwing: Tribal giants are accomplished rock throwers and have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. A tribal giant can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than her size. A "rock" is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5. A thrown rock has a range increment of 120 feet. The tribal giant can hurl the rock up to five range increments. Damage from a thrown rock is 2d6 plus 1-1/2 times the tribal giant's Strength bonus.

• Hatred: Tribal giants receive a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against humanoids of the goblinoid and orc subtypes.

• Weapon Familiarity: Tribal giants are proficient with dire flails, greataxes, greatclubs, and greatswords.

Senses Racial Traits

• Low-Light Vision: Tribal giants can see twice as far as a race with normal vision in conditions of dim light.

Full giants are very powerful. You'll need a half-giant.

The weakest giant type humanoid is a half-ogre. They're worth 27 RP... if you don't count the two racial hit dice, which are hard to quantify.

** spoiler omitted **

There's a 3rd party half ogre which is a little easier to handle, conceptually. Despite only weighing in at 13 rp its really good stats make it a bit stronger than the standard races, but it's definitely weaker than the drow noble so you could stand to give it a few more traits to build up the concept. I would recommend rock catching, rock throwing, and towering build:

** spoiler omitted **...

I think this is a good basis to start from. I'm going to make a new race from scratch using 41 RP for him to play as.

actually, Race Points are a poor way to judge a homebrewed races power. you are better off eyeballing things and seeing if the race looks right to you, because you can make a 15 point race that is outright better than a poorly built 30 point race.

Racial points are only unfair and unbalanced if the racial classes are mismatched. A standard, advanced, and monstrous race with same point values will not be equal, obviously. As Monstrous races can get +4 to one ability, +2 to three others, with a -2 to one for 4 racial points. However, a standard race cannot even select this option. This is where the issue comes into play. A "monstrous race" made of 10 points can be drastically more powerful than a "standard race" made of the same value.

If both races are kept to the same standards of racial creation, the point values are not as drastically unbalanced.

Hey all. I have a new player coming into my Pathfinder campaign who is wanting to play a giant. When we first set up the campaign I allowed for the players to have access to any race that was equal to or less racial points than the drow noble. That's 41 RP for those who don't know how much a drow noble is worth off hand.

So my question is, do any of you know of a giant race that would be 41 RP or less? I'm considering having him make a half giant instead, if the other giants are out of the ballpark.

Thanks all!
- S.N. Rivers

Just found it.

Mithral FAQ

What weight do I use to determine the price of a mithral weapon or non-armor item?

To determine the additional price for the mithral (as compared to the normal item's price), use the non-mithral item's original weight and multiply that by 500 gp per pound.

For example, a steel dagger for a Medium creature weighs 1 pound. For its mithral equivalent, multiply that weight (1 lb.) times 500 gp/pound, or +500 gp. When added to the original item's cost (2 gp), the mithral dagger's total price is 502 gp.

There are likely some inconsistent mithral item prices in print, and these will be addressed in future printings of these books, as appropriate.

Yeah, I'm also curious about this and how exactly it works.

Thank you everyone for your very clear and decisive explanations! This was extremely helpful and very insightful. I appreciate all of the commentary. Especially Tacticslion! Your links were helpful references for sure!

- S.N. Rivers

Having DR 5/piercing and DR 5/bludgeoning is exactly the same as having DR 5/bludgeoning and piercing. It does not become DR 5/bludgeoning or piercing.

Just out of curiosity, how does one determine whether DR of two types is and or or based DR? It was my understanding that if the DR came from two separate sources, it would become an and based form of DR joining the two together. But if it came from a specified source of two existing DR types in a single package it would be DR of the or variety.

You seem knowledgeable in this area. Is this true? Or is there a different way of determining this?

Generally speaking multiple DRs don't stack in that way. When you have DR 5/piercing and then get DR 5/bashing it doesn't become DR 5/bashing and piercing. It just means when you get attacked by a weapon, check the type to see if have protection.

Having 2 DRs is nice, having a DR that needs 2 conditions is extremely more effective and "worth" more balance wise.

Unless otherwise stated, gaining 2 forms of DR just means you have two forms of DR and you can use the most advantageous whenever it comes into play. There would be very specific wording if a DR were to "merge" in such a way as you are asking.

In this sense though, what you're describing comes out to the same thing. Using whichever is most advantageous is, in this case, the same as joining them. Because if you can overcome cold iron with your weapon, that means the race would use the more advantageous DR. Which in this case would be silver. And if you were to use silver, the race would use the cold iron as advantageous DR.

And magic weapons don't count as bypassing silver or cold iron. So... For all effective purposes, the race would indeed be treated as if they had DR 5/ cold iron and silver. But I do see what you're saying. In some cases you get DR in the sense of DR 5/Bludgeoning OR Magic. And in that case either one can bypass the DR.

But to my knowledge or descriptors for DR come from the same source for the DR while and descriptors come from different and completely separate sources. Which is why I'm guessing DR 5/cold iron with DR 5/silver cost a total of 6 RP when both are taken while DR 10/magic is also 6 RP. The value of the DR is doubled, but only one thing bypasses it. Thus making it equal in power and balancing it out.

Anyway, didn't mean to discredit what you were saying. I apologize if it came across that way. But this is why I was curious if both could be taken in a single creature at racial creation. I know they can both be acquired by having a race start with one, then getting a template that has the other. But at racial creation, I was unaware if this loophole had been corrected or addressed yet or if it was intentionally allowed.

You get the same thing with fey vampires and lycanthropes.

So this is legitimate then? I ask just to be sure that I wouldn't be exploiting the system here in making such a race.

So, in the race building section for advanced races guide, there are several types of damage reduction one can take for their race. The question I have revolves around the combination of the Fey DR and the Moon-Touched DR, seen below.

Fey Damage Resistance

Prerequisite: Fey Racial Type

Description: Members of this race gain DR 5/cold iron.

Moon-Touched Damage Resistance

Prerequisite: None

Description: Members of this race gain DR 5/silver.

The question I have for this is, would it be then be okay to take both of these to make the race's Damage Resistance DR 5/cold iron AND silver? I know nothing states otherwise as far as I can see, but other than having a +3 weapon, I can't see overcoming both of these. I mean, as far as I know you can't forge a blade of alchemical silver AND cold iron. Not to mention, this would completely make the standard damage reduction in the racial defensive traits section entirely useless. If a +1 magical weapon overcomes DR 5/magic, then theoretically making a Fey who just happens to have both of these DR types would make the standard DR types pointless.

So... To wind down this big rant to a simplified question... Has there been some form of errata made to correct this? Or is there something I legitimately missed here that would not allow this in the first place?

Thanks so much!
- S.N. Rivers

What do the different colors mean or represent from people here on the message board? I've noticed that there is a wide array of colors and symbols for people's alias names and I've no clue what they mean.

- S.N. Rivers

Are you talking about a PBP (Play By Post) campaign or VTT (Virtual Table Top)? For the most part the site just has message boards that can be used for PBP. If you're looking for Virtual Table Top stuff you probably want to take a look at Roll20.net.

Thank you Gullyble. I'll give Roll20.net a look. I've been DMing for 7 years and have been our group's primary DM for about 3 years now. But I have yet to understand much of the setup of playing online, sadly.

Thanks again!
- S.N. Rivers

Where do I go on this site to start my own campaign online? I'm having a hard time navigating this site.

Keagun Redcrow wrote:

Oh he was trying to see if it was possible to cleave/great cleave off of an AoO

Cleaving Finish would work, but not Cleave. Cleave is its own standard action.

I see. Cleaving Finish doesn't give an action descriptor in it's definition, so it can be used but the other version of cleave state standard action so they cannot. Awesome.

Thank you for your time.
- S.N. Rivers

You can tell him that it's a special Action, akin to an Immediate Action but not specifically an Immediate Action, because AoOs are exactly that: a special type of Action in combat.

Normally, you are only allowed one Attack of Opportunity.

With Combat Reflexes, you are allowed a number of total Attacks of Opportunity in a round equal to your Dexterity Bonus.

This is the answer I was looking for. Thank you.

I'm the GM. I just want to know if there's anything in the rules that gives a set guideline for this. It helps me to have a general guideline for making player races.

How many RP are usually allowed when making a custom playable race? I understand 1 - 10 is for a standard race and 11 - 20 is for advanced. Then 21 - 30 is monstrous, right? So does this mean 1 - 20 could all be playable races?

I'm trying to make a race of playable sentient undead, but undead by themselves cost around 16 RP if I remember right.

Probably a Zen Archer Monk, possibly with a side of grappling. If the spell caster lacks protection from archery then kill it with a flurry of arrows. If archery fails then run close and grapple. Monks have good saves, which are especially important when facing hostile casters.

If the spell caster is forewarned and has time to prepare then fogetaboutit. Unless we're talking very low levels, or an incompetent caster, the non-spellcaster has little or no chance.

Theoretically, couldn't an archer just make a readied action on his turn to hold off his attack until the caster's turn? Then launch his readied and prepared attack while the caster is casting? Then the caster would have to make a concentration check, DC 10 + Damage + Spell level.

Using this strategy couldn't an archer just consistently time and ready his shots to time up with the caster as said caster tries to cast? You could force the caster to always risk a spell by making it fizzle if he or she failed the concentration check. Because a readied action only requires that you give up an action of equal description as the action you're preparing.

So just ready a standard action to fire and attack and prepare it for the time that your foe starts casting. Outsmart the caster. I've always felt that the way to overcoming casters lied in outwitting them. Not out brawning or out ranging them.

Rickmeister wrote:

vuron wrote:

Protection from arrows is a nice long duration buff which can make casters relatively secure vs low end archers.

The subject gains damage reduction 10/magic against ranged weapons... Not *that* good, trust me!

Magic (bows that fires magic)arrows are not that hard to find :P

He did say 'low end archers'.

A 3rd level PC can standardly afford a bow with a +1 enchantment just with the regular starting gold for 3rd level player characters.

It only costs 2000gp for the base weapon enchantment, thus making the bow magical. Thereby leaving 1000gp for the bow itself and for armor.

And since archery uses Dex as its default ability for attacking with a bow, it stands to reason that the archer would be more likely to wear light or medium armor for the purpose of keeping the higher max Dex bonus. Especially since Dex bonuses to AC work against touch attacks, which are a spellcaster's primary form of attack.

I say this, because I feel a level 3 archer is still a low end archer. Protection from arrows is good against city guards, bandits, and low end monsters like goblins. It does very little againstmost important NPCs and PCs of lower level.

Just out of curiosity, I'm looking for the best non-spellcasting class to use for a build to destroy casters. I'm hoping for something that is equally defensible as it is offensive. Any ideas?

Thanks guys!
- S.N. Rivers

I'm surprised no one has said this till non, if you really want to mess with your GM have the entire party me master summoners. Just imagine the chaos a group of four master summoners could do.

What exactly makes a summoner a "master summoner?"

All nature based Classes, druid, ranger, etal. And you guys are eco terrorists. Druid that wildshapes into a squirrel and throws fireseeds at towns, ranger that herds stampedes through towns etc. Halflings would make it more hilarious.

Now there's an idea I like. Halfling eco-terrorists! XD A necromancer, ranger, druid, and anti-paladin. Sort of ruins the same class logic, but the f~*% with the DM ratio is still strong. Lmao

Keagun Redcrow wrote:

Lmao I can do any of your old characters better justice than Oats ever could

Oats couldnt even do his own characters justice mostly cuz i always had to make them for him

Oats made Fred. And War, come to think of it.

i was actuly hopping to incurege a group to try and play the same class to find out something.

how about all of you play a Freebooter. this one has a nasty potential. and comical twist.
at 1st level you all get :** spoiler omitted **

that not only stack but let you all gang on some1 yelling "GET HIM!!" -at level 1, 4 pc will stack this for a +4 to hit and damage,more would be more.

if he let you reach level 4 it is even more potential as the ** spoiler omitted **
grant a probebly stacking +2 for lfanking so 4 of you cross flanking a target yo uallraedy yelled "get him" at will get a +14 to hit and +4 to damage.(and at level 5 that will be +18 to hit and +8 to damage)

this still let yo uvery out your toons somewhat as the ranger combat style is still open to difrent variation and the spells as well.

That's pretty legit. I doubt he'd allow us to live long enough to enjoy it though. XD

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

What? Did you even read any of that.

Dont have to

And why not? It's rude to call someone out then not listen.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

Kelcifur Illyston wrote:

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

Kelcifur Ilyston wrote:

Smh go monk fighter barbarian mix and spec everyone for different stuff. One trips, one disarms, one sunders, and one cleaves and circle kicks. Just be sure to make their last names all redcrow. And make their dads name keagun. F**+ s~~$ up redcrow style!

You spelled Illyston wrong.

- S.N. Rivers

All this from a common death note rip off? Near was cooler bro

Near was foolish to be as direct and confrontational as he was with everything. If it weren't for Mello, he'd have been 6 feet under in no time flat. Light was the best of them all. He killed L, Mello, and any random in his path. Ruthlessly used Misa to cut down unsuspecting snoopers and even got Rem, a god of Death, to give up his life to kill L for Misa.

I just liked that Near was American / British and that he really could care less about anything other than his goal. Doesn't mean my persona of the blend of L and Near is a rip off.

Smh w/e

What? Did you even read any of that.

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

Kelcifur Ilyston wrote:

Smh go monk fighter barbarian mix and spec everyone for different stuff. One trips, one disarms, one sunders, and one cleaves and circle kicks. Just be sure to make their last names all redcrow. And make their dads name keagun. F**+ s~~$ up redcrow style!

You spelled Illyston wrong.

- S.N. Rivers

All this from a common death note rip off? Near was cooler bro

Near was foolish to be as direct and confrontational as he was with everything. If it weren't for Mello, he'd have been 6 feet under in no time flat. Light was the best of them all. He killed L, Mello, and any random in his path. Ruthlessly used Misa to cut down unsuspecting snoopers and even got Rem, a god of Death, to give up his life to kill L for Misa.

I just liked that Near was American / British and that he really could care less about anything other than his goal. Doesn't mean my persona of the blend of L and Near is a rip off.

You want to mess with his mind? DO YOU? Because Goddities discount mind destroying secrets are right through here. Play an all rogue, all kobold party. It is very surprising that no one else has thought of this.

More seriously play all alchemists and always apply MAD SCIENCE!!!!!

I actually really, really like both of those ideas. And "Goddity" reminds me of Godlings. That would seriously mess with his head. It'd be great. Lol.

Smh go monk fighter barbarian mix and spec everyone for different stuff. One trips, one disarms, one sunders, and one cleaves and circle kicks. Just be sure to make their last names all redcrow. And make their dads name keagun. F**+ s~~$ up redcrow style!

You spelled Illyston wrong.

For the humor of it:

All catfolk druids, all with a tiger animal companion.

Or all barbarians, except every single one of you is a coward and uses the barbarian fast movement to flee from every single combat encounter he puts in front of you.

This is a seriously funny idea. But I don't think anyone else wants to play a druid. Even as a joke.

Every one of us has already made at least 3 back up characters. (I've made 6). We're just looking to see if we can make all tanks or all DPS and actually have it last. Lol. Also, it'd be funny to see the GM freak out when he asks what we made and we're all the same. Lol.

All bard parties are actually perfectly viable. You could probably make several of the 3/4 semi-caster classes work as well, but Bards have the widest variety of archetypes available.

We were looking for something quick and easy to do as a joke. Something where we'd be all tanky or all squishy.

We really want to mess with our GM. To be funny. We're planning on all playing the same race and same class just to mess with him. We're thinking of going all human fighters, or all Drow Warlocks. Perhaps we could do an all archer situation? We're not sure yet. What do you all think?

- Thanks!
S.N. Rivers

Hey all. Just wondering what the smallest race you've heard of is that doesn't stray into the Tiny or lower spectrum. My group has a betting pool going. Lol. What do you guys say? We're averaging the race's height with its weight. So smaller overall, not just shorter.

Ideas?
- S.N. Rivers

Sear N. Rivers wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Dual-wielding bastard swords is the exact opposite of how to get DPR.

If you want non-magical DPR, Barbarians and Archer Slayers will be your best bet. If you would be willing to mix in a bit of magic the Dawnflower Dervish Bard is great as well.

What is an "Archer Slayer?" It sounds awesome.

A Slayer that uses a bow. Bows are really freaking good in Pathfinder and Slayers do a great job at using them.

Oh, you meant the Slayer class but using a bow. For some reason, I was thinking you were referencing an archetype of some sort that was designed to destroy archers. Lol.

I'm thinking being human is my best bet then. For another ranged based feat? The only crappy thing I see is the sneak attack damage is limited to 30 feet. That'd be great if I were using a pistol. Touch sneak attack at 10 feet! Bam! But it sort of nerfs the point of a bow, doesn't it?

Archer Rangers deal a ton of damage per round because they get so many attacks.

I was considering a close range gun slinger for the up close ballistic touch attacks. I've played too many rangers to want to play another, tempting as it is.

Dual-wielding bastard swords is the exact opposite of how to get DPR.

If you want non-magical DPR, Barbarians and Archer Slayers will be your best bet. If you would be willing to mix in a bit of magic the Dawnflower Dervish Bard is great as well.

What is an "Archer Slayer?" It sounds awesome.

Hey again all. I'm here this time to get some advice on what you all would say would make the best in your face no holds barred killing machine. One of my players decided to run his own campaign and I was tasked with making our non-magical DPS character.

Keep in mind that I'm not playing mindlessly or playing on a power trip. I will develop a full background and creative character concept too and not just shout "I KILL IT" every encounter. But, I would like to to pretty much drop anything I hit instantly. Or get as close to it as possible.

Our DM is starting us out at level 3, giving us 1000 starting gold, and allowing any race lower than CR 2 without the ability to fly or the incorporeal ability. Also, only medium or small size. We have a 25 point buy as well.

I'm thinking of dual wielding bastard swords. What do you all think? Defense is not a priority. I'll gladly sacrifice it to deal more damage. But I'd like to avoid playing a barbarian if possible.

Thanks guys!
- S.N. Rivers

Alright, so last question. If he were to take exotic weapon proficiency for the bastard sword in one hand, could he then dual wield bastard swords each as one-handed weapons with two weapon fighting? My buddy Kevin keeps saying that it doesn't work that way, but I don't see anything wrong with it.