Sean S.'s page

Shaken is a -2 to things monsters are already good at. Most monsters have enough hit not to notice, or to switch from full attacks to one attack. It's a 10% reduction in effectiveness.

...and, with Cruel weapon fusions, that becomes 20-25%. On attacks AND damage - including saves, which opens foes up to allied spellcasters and other debuffs.

Since blind already induces flat footed why would you ever do flat footed?

It's a superior option because of the build resources you need to actually get it off. That is exactly what a debuff provided by Stunts should provide. They should be better than anything Trick Attack is doing.

Blinded with NO save? Works against any creature without blindsight?

Your sense of balance is WAY off if you think that should be allowed.

Blindsight isn't terribly uncommon in a game with aliens that have unique senses. And it's against one foe on a successful skill check.

I've got a character that uses it, and I've ended up needing to consciously not always use blind as the best condition that it offers to keep things interesting.

Have you ever used Selective Explosions with a 30ft blast weapon? The choice on a good build is often between AOE and purely attacking one target, rather than the separate conditions. And again, as you level up, Cruel weapon fusions become available, and Shaken can really work wonders on creatures with alternative senses. Entangled is also really good on enemies that rely on melee attacks, as you can prevent their ability to attack you in the first place and even get -2s on them in the off-case that they aren't purely melee.

I could, but this is basic understanding of the weapon balance. If you have this many opinions without grasping this I'm not sure you can be helped.

I'm not responding to this to convince you of anything, the analysis is poor enough that it's not worth my time given the low likelihood of success. I just don't want you polluting things for others, new to the system, who might read it and mistakenly think you have a point.

Well, although you argue disingenuously, that's not my intention, and I will continue to speak passionately about something I care about for a class I currently play. I think the quality of feedback I've provided is specific and detailed enough to be worth responding to.

It's good to know that people like this exist. Great job, devs!

The blind and entangle options were not balanced against other options within that one ability, let alone against other Stunt and Strike abilities.

What is the appeal of S&S if it is not doing major debuffs to offset the high build investment, lack of subclass buffs to skill check rate, and low damage after the fact? You have to look at this not only from a strict balancing perspective, but an option appeal perspective. When you understand that Dirty Trick isn't balanced against Trick Attack without major debuffs, the need for buffs to the other Stunts - as I stated in my post - becomes clear as the alternative.

Toxicology sickness inhibitor was not balanced against the -2 to will/fortitude inhibitors - a -2 to all saves, plus damage, plus attacks? Come on, man.

Even if you want to ignore how powerful imparting vulnerability to an enemy with no save is, Pharmacology gives an automatic debuff on a success with an additional debuff on a failure. And they are good debuffs on a failed save, actually - they seriously limit speed, which can often be better than simple -2's! But the save offset the power level properly.

Genetics vulnerability is quite good but overrated. Not everyone will standardize on one damage type with their best weapons

In the context of the weapon draw rules in SF, where you can simply draw weapons as part of your move action in many cases (and also Trick Attack and S&S in recent errata,) it is extremely easy for party members to optimize around this inhibitor in practice.

the biohacker himself will have a very hard time benefiting from it

Not the point; see above.

Projectile damage is just that much higher than most energy damage.

In the context of what build? Can you provide examples?

One thing your analysis is missing is that stunt and strike isn't just taken by operatives. Its also taken by classes dipping operatives. Giving the soldier an at will blind at the cost of a dip is just way too good. Giving anyone at will blind is just too good.

It is a rare soldier that invests in Intelligence in this game when they are bound to str / dex / con / wis so tightly. I would be inclined to reward a player for their build knowledge, especially since racial modifiers are so key to getting Stunts off.

But aside from that fact, it is balanced with Expertise Attack from Envoy imparting Shaken on a similar skill check basis (which can be combined with Cruel weapon fusions for an effective -4 to hit and saves and -2 to damage) while **also providing a damage buff.** S&S Operative was not exceptional in providing a solid 1 level dip.

I hate having to write in the morning, and I especially never thought I'd use the Paizo forums, but this incredibly over the top scenario involving two of my favorite subclasses really, really annoyed me. I usually think Paizo does a good job balancing, but this was just incredibly ignorant.

For the uninformed, S&S Operative can no longer blind or entangle enemies, and Toxicologist inhibitor requires a saving throw whereas it once didn't.

For S&S Operative, **you had to have a very good build to make full use of this class.** Your Intelligence score had to be a top priority at all times. Racial bonuses were needed for consistency. Weapon feats due to the loss of Trick Attack damage were needed ASAP to acquire better weapons - they more or less required (Weapon) Proficiency, Weapon Focus, and Versatile Specialization at the first 3 levels to keep up with other characters. The average player not only did not use S&S Operative due to it being tucked away in COM, but the average person building it probably suffered from not optimizing it.

S&S Operative's main draw was the powerful debuffs you got in return for being behind on single target damage **even after all those feats you just invested for 3 levels.** (You were also behind on action economy versus Quick Trick - even now after the QT nerfs!) Blinded, in particular, was superior to regular Operative just flat footing, because it gave standard enemies a real chance at missing their attacks and forcing DMs to think on their feet with regards to spells. But it was by no means overpowering, being limited to single targets that you succeeded on a tough skill check against - a skill check that, by the way, had no innate class bonuses to the check as regular Operative often has for checks not revolving around your key ability score.

S&S still has the highly underrated Selective Explosions, but it now has to make hard choices between attack roll debuffs and AC debuffs, which is plain ridiculous given the inherent disadvantages they have versus normal Operatives. Even if Dirty Trick was the clear best choice on stunts, other stunts should've been brought up to its level rather than DT getting the nerf hammer. (Were I in Paizo's place, I would've looked at removing the save requirement on Athletics' Knock Down or adding debuff conditions to abilities like Bluff's Feinting Stunt.)

Now, as for Toxicology's inhibitor... this was basically an underrated option before the nerf, and now Toxicology is basically smoldering hot garbage. Previously, it was a situational imparter of the sickened condition. It's a decent debuff, but -2 to attack, saves, and damage isn't brutal; most enemies have big bonuses to all even when debuffed.

Toxicology, already, was not a favored option in builds for two reasons: firstly, due to the fact that players prefer forcing enemies to take damage at the rate of 150% with no save as per Genetics inhibitor, which actually IS currently and previously overpowered without a save; and secondly, due to the fact that Toxicologist's inhibitor has the Poison descriptor, which means that it can't affect constructs and undead until high level play where Powerful Biohacks could be taken as a theorem; this was a critical limitation given that both are a frequent enemy type in Starfinder.

Giving Toxicologist's inhibitor a save means that the overwhelming majority of enemies will succeed against it rather than fail against it - and it's for a simple -2 to attacks, saves, and damage. Meanwhile Genetics inhibitor is giving hard increases to damage with no save. Will anyone *ever* pick a different Biohacker subclass?

...To summarize, these nerfs were surprisingly out of touch, more befitting Wizards of the Coast than Paizo. Whoever did these nerfs did so because they thought that abilities that work different than other are bad; and that is just profoundly ignorant with respect to overall game and build balance. I would encourage Paizo to look at these nerfs seriously and consider retracting them.