Saraiso's page

@Chemlak: Thanks for all the wonderful feedback! Don't worry, I am glad to hear your impressions of this ruleset and I don't at all take criticism as an expression of hate =3

I don't have Ultimate War, though it sounds like a good book? I'll look into acquiring and reading through it.

I made these rules mostly for the use of my personal campaign which is the Wrath of the Righteous AP. As such, all of the battles so far have been pretty standard land based stuff, so I didn't want to overload my players with a bunch of alternate rules for air and sea and underwater combat. Similarly the one "siege" in the campaign so far has been against a mostly ruined castle and I wanted to leave the fortifications as a simple backdrop to the fighting, and not get into deep siege rules. I remember reading the description of Ultimate War and thinking it wasnt relevant to what I was doing, so I stuck with just Ultimate Battle. I will certainly go revisit that book though, and maybe incorporate a modification of those extra systems into Phase 2 of my house rules.

I'll try to answer your points as you posted them:

1) I thought about changing it to the Morale phase, but then the tactics stop making as much sense. (Why would you use the Retreat tactic in the Morale phase?). If you have any better name for it, I am open to suggestions. I can't think of anything better off the top of my head.

2) Done.

3) Done.

4) The difference between this and expert flankers becomes most apparent when your side has two armies and the enemy side has one, in which case you can use Pincer Maneuver to get a +4 to OM without taking any corresponding penalty. Even in multiple army situations this is going to be usually better than Expert Flankers because you gain an OM bonus against the enemy you are attacking (you wouldn't use Pincer Maneuver if you weren't attacking an army engaged with an allied army, right?), but you only take a DV penalty vs armies you are Not attacking. So if that melee army attacks you back, you have no DV penalty, making this tactic superior to Expert Flankers.

Expert Flankers on the other hand is a more general tactic; not requiring a second allied army to use, but also providing less of a benefit against your army's primary target (+4 OM/-4 DV vs +4 OM and no DV penalty).

As to making it a general tactic; I am torn on that. On the one hand I can see how this type of tactic is something that any army could use (everyone can get Flanking in normal combat after all), but on the other hand you could make the argument that only a skilled commander would order their army to deliberately flank another army rather than just advancing straight into melee.

I also want to keep the number of core tactics as small as possible, so there is that. If you can come up with a good alternate version of this tactic (with at most a +2 bonus/penalty) that could be a free tactic, I am open to the idea.

5) I admit, I didn't spend as much time on this section as i should have. I went with the bare minimum to keep complexity down, but there are definitely some resources that should have additional requirements. I just went through the list of settlement buildings in more depth and modified some resource requirements. See if that makes more sense now?

I absolutely don't want any tactics to have a settlement building requirement to learn. Even "primitive" armies of barbarians from the wilds can make use of advanced tactics if they have a good commander, so I don't want to limit the list of available tactics to penalize armies without a developed kingdom. I much prefer the idea of keeping settlement restrictions to Resources, and leaving Tactics alone.

6) I went with armies using Light armor as the default level because of the idea of a basic army as a bunch of peasants with pitchforks and scythes. They would typically be wearing padded or leather, if anything and using simple weapons. An army wearing medium armor also typically has martial weapons. By shifting the baseline down to light/simple instead of Ultimate Campaigns medium/martial, I added a few more options for cheap ways to outfit a low level humanoid army and also set the base speed for humanoid armies to be the same as for non-humanoid armies that don't use armor.

I felt this was a better baseline to stick with, and then modify from there. If you want to use medium armor as a baseline and change Light to be a rebate, you can certainly do that for your game! Doing so would necessitate defining an army as armor-wearing or non-armor-wearing right off the bat though; as armored armies would have a base speed of 1, while non-armored armies would have a base speed of 2.

The light/simple baseline also serves to slightly increase the power of humanoid armies in relation to monster armies, as like you say most armies fielded by kingdoms will have medium armor and martial weapons. I felt this was a good balancing choice as most monster armies have several special abilities that give them advantages over humanoid armies already. Ultimately though, its just a +1 OM/DV difference and it probably wont make a big difference to modify it one way or another.

I did update the Mounts resource to replicate the weight issue though. Light mounts prohibit Heavy Armor. Heavy Mounts allow Heavy Armor. I wanted to avoid lots of conditional bonuses and penalties, so just simply saying "no heavy armor for light mounts" seemed a simple way to go about it. Armies typically do not march while overburdened anyway, as that is a sure fire way to arrive at a battle fatigued and at a disadvantage. When given the option I am trying to go with simplicity over realism for these rules.

7) Added. Armor now has a Material option with modifiers for Mithral, Darkleaf and Adamantine. Other materials are possible with GM permission.

8) This is again simplicity, and in this case consistency, rather than realism. 1 BP is roughly 5000 gold, and so to outfit an army of 100 people with 50gp worth of materials costs 1 BP. Its not strictly realistic, but it makes the math work out with the other BP based calculations so I felt it was a worthwhile trade. It's also a lot easier to divide most of the material costs by 50 than it is by 40. Mithral for example is 500 a pound, which is 12.5 times 40, but an even 10 times 50.

9) Fixed. Thanks to that, I also found a similar typo in an earlier section!

Thanks again for your feedback, and I'm glad you like it! I did add a credits blurb at the beginning, because I don't want it to seem like I am trying to steal other people's ideas!

The download link should point to the updated doc now.

@Chemlak

Thanks for pointing that out! I modified the army template to show ranged above melee to make it easier to read.

@Jason Nelson
I did actually purchase Ultimate Battle, and I sort of used that system as a basis for building this one. In particular the battle turn sequence (Tactics, Ranged, Melee, Rout phases) and the battle zones (camp, range, melee) are ideas I got from Ultimate Battle.

I liked the wide range of options in Ultimate Battle, but the combat system felt too confusing for me and my players both. The tactics in particular were really all over the place. Tactics are basically 1 round buffs, but also some of them require certain actions while others don't? Cautious Combat for example applies no matter what you do, while Furious Charge implies a rush into melee? You can't use it while engaged, but does it Require you to advance into the melee zone? can you use Furious Charge while sitting around in the ranged zone making potshots with arrows? The rules don't say!

The biggest change I made (at least in my opinion) was changing Tactics into Combat Actions. The tactic you choose defines the action your army takes, and in this way the Tactics phase becomes WAY more important than before. Forcing the enemy to reveal their tactic first means you know not just whether they are getting an OM or DV bonus, but also what action they are taking, and you can plan your own action to take advantage of theirs.

It also serves to simplify the combat round. Instead of an army being able to make ranged attacks, advance into melee, make melee attacks, and possible retreat to the ranged zone again all in one round; now you just do one thing each round. My players have said they find my system much less confusing in actual play than the rules in Ultimate Battle.

Actually, many of the rules in my version of Mass Combat are attempts to simplify confusing or overcomplicated rules from Ultimate Battle and Ultimate Campaign, and to unify everything into a single coherent system.

Hi Everyone,

I posted this over in the Homebrew section, but since Wrath of the Righteous is what started this whole project, I thought I'd post it here too.

I have been running the Wrath of the Righteous AP and the one thing that really left me lukewarm was the Mass Combat rules. It seemed like there was loads of configuration in the setup and building of an army (none of which you actually get to do in the campaign!), but during combat you just wind the two armies up (selecting tactics and strategy) then let them go at it and watch them roll attacks at each other till one falls down. Not very satisfying!

So, in an effort to improve the experience, I decided to make my own!

I have been looking at a lot of different homebrew and third party mass combat systems, including from the great 3pp book Ultimate Battle, but none of them were quite what I was looking for. The ruleset I came up with, and which is posted below, is a hybrid of ideas from many other sources as well as entirely original ideas I came up with on my own.

The key differences are that combat takes place in rounds, each of which has 4 phases (tactics, ranged, melee, rout) and that Tactics are an army's actions. Each round an army picks one tactic to use, and that determines which phase the army acts in.

There is also lots of other stuff... in an effort to make the system truly comprehensive I have included all of the army based things I could think of, including several that were left out of the Kingdom Building rules. There are rules for terrain, weather, visibility, more leadership boons, more leadership positions, mythic abilities, overland travel, recruiting/disbanding armies, upgrading/downgrading armies, and so much more!

If any of you feel so inclined (and want to read through the massive 73 page pdf), please give me feedback on this! I am playtesting these rules with the group I'm currently running through Wrath of the Righteous, but if anyone else wants to take these rules and playtest them yourselves feel free!

Just please give me credit if you distribute this to your friends, and don't distribute this pdf for any commercial purposes >_<

Saraiso's Mass Combat Rules

Hi Everyone,

I have been running the Wrath of the Righteous and Kingmaker AP's and the one thing that really left me lukewarm was the Mass Combat rules. It seemed like there was loads of configuration in the setup and building of an army, but during combat you just wind the two armies up (selecting tactics and strategy) then let them go at it and watch them roll attacks at each other till one falls down. Not very satisfying!

So, in an effort to improve the experience, I decided to make my own!

I have been looking at a lot of different homebrew and third party mass combat systems, including from the great 3pp book Ultimate Battle, but none of them were quite what I was looking for. The ruleset I came up with, and which is posted below, is a hybrid of ideas from many other sources as well as entirely original ideas I came up with on my own.

The key differences are that combat takes place in rounds, each of which has 4 phases (tactics, ranged, melee, rout) and that Tactics are an army's actions. Each round an army picks one tactic to use, and that determines which phase the army acts in.

There is also lots of other stuff... in an effort to make the system truly comprehensive I have included all of the army based things including several that were left out of the Kingdom Building rules. There are rules for terrain, weather, visibility, overland travel, recruiting/disbanding armies, upgrading/downgrading armies, and so much more!

If any of you feel so inclined (and want to read through the massive 73 page pdf), please give me feedback on this! I am playtesting these rules with the group I'm currently running through Wrath of the Righteous, but if anyone else wants to take these rules and playtest them yourselves feel free!

Just please give me credit if you distribute this to your friends, and don't distribute this pdf for any commercial purposes >_<

Saraiso's Mass Combat Rules

I am currently running Rappan Athuk over roll20.net, and my group is having a blast. I advertised it as a roguelike in dnd form, so they came in expecting a dungeon focused game :P

I set the dungeon in Golarion on the northern edge of Nirmathas, just below the Hold of Belkzen. The Mouth of Doom is in the forests of Nirmathas, and Rappan Athuk proper is north in the foothills of Belzen. I had to swap around a bunch of stuff on the map, but it works out well enough.

Intro wise, I replaced the town of Zelkor's Ferry with a wizard tower; the tower of Somnabulus the Great. He is paying adventurers a fortune to retrieve an artifact from one of the lower levels of Rappan Athuk, and his advertisements explain why there are always new characters waiting in the tower to form the replacements for any that die in the dungeon.

I have five players, and I started them out with 25 point buy at level one outside the Mouth of Doom. I would not recommend doing any less if you plan to run this at all by the book, because this dungeon is Lethal! I also allow monster races, and templates and all kinds of other stuff (usually using CR or racial HD as effective levels for templates and monsters respectively). That has helped a lot in keeping options open and interest high for making new characters.

So far my party has fully cleared the Mouth of Doom (and one of their characters, a ratfolk druid, decided to retire there and keep the place free of monsters), and have passed through the Gut and into Rappan Athuk proper. They emerged in level four, and are heading up toward the surface to try to make their way back to the tower overland. They are currently in level 3, and are trying to figure out how to deal with the worm cave.

Its kind of interesting seeing them approach the upper levels from the back route as it were; heading up rather than down.

As far as lethality goes? The party is currently level 7, and they have 38 dead characters between the five of them.

I didn't want to punish death too much, so I keep track of xp for the whole party, and new characters come in at the same level as the rest of the party so they do keep advancing even after all the character deaths.

I have to say though, this dungeon is amazingly fun. My players are still really into the game, even after loosing so many characters, and they are constantly coming up with new builds to try. They also enjoy all the various ways to die in this place.

Some highlights:
-The Merfolk Oracle was killed by a mutant giant water snake in the River Dripping, which was ironic as she was the only one capable of swimming to its cave to take its treasure.
-The tiefling witch decided to rest in luxury, and was eaten by the carpet in the Last One Inn.
-The Paladin of Iomedae died fighting the Fire Cobra in the Mouth of Doom, while the rest of her party fled in fear. To this day they are convinced that she survived and is fighting the good fight somewhere deeper in the dungeon.
-The Entire party TPK'd in the Chamber of Eternal Sleep, as someone tripped the carpet trap and not ONE of the five of them rolled above a 3 on their Will save.
-After a TPK, the party decided to go explore the wilderness for a bit (level 5). The first thing they found was the hill with the harpies. Every one of them but the monk failed a harpy save, and they got torn to shreds by the Dire Lions. This was the first and only time we ever called a mulligan and restarted again with a "suspiciously identical party" back at the dungeon.
-The human fighter, dwarf rogue, and aasimar cleric all got killed by their teammates while under Scramge's illusions. The wizard fled and survived, leaving only the Orc fighter left. When Scramge revealed himself at last, the Orc promptly dropped his weapon and asked for a job XD Now he is the Rakshasha's new henchman, replacing all the jackalweres that were slain.

Overall, this dungeon is a Huge amount of fun, provided your party doesn't mind dying and enjoys making new characters :P

As far as advice for you Cycnet, I would recommend only prepping the areas adjacent to where your party currently is. I do that in roll20, loading in and prepping each floor adjacent to the floor my party is currently on. When they reach a new floor I will prep all the floors adjacent to that one. Since its all stored in roll20, I can easily revisit stuff that I prepped previously if they go a different route, and this way I can keep the workload manageable.

Well the necromancer idea just hit another deadwall then, unless i can find some way to get access to negative energy. Is there anything in 3.5 material?

I'm thinking of selecting evocation/enchantment as my opposition schools. Thoughts on this?

Couple thoughts on this. First, if you can learn Infernal Healing and Greater Infernal Healing you can heal your main undead minion for 10 or 40 hp per cast. Undead can still benefit from fast healing just like any other creature.

Second, if your GM allows the Advanced Races Guide there is a fetchling spell called Gloomblind Bolts (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/gloomblind-bolts) that might interest you. Its like a scorching ray that damages living targets or heals your undead minions, with a nifty blind effect as well. This would be a good candidate for Preferred Spell, so you can spontaneously cast it whenever you need some undead healing. If you don't want to be a fetchling and your GM enforces race restrictions, Humans can get a feat called Racial Heritage that lets them count as another race, and thus get race only spells and feats and stuff.

Finally, even if your GM is a stickler for only allowing Create Undead to make basic ghouls as in the bestiary, at 11th level you can make Skeletal Champions and Juju Zombies with create undead. Both of these are templates that allow the target to keep all class levels. Skeletal Champions even give 2 racial HD as well as all the class levels, giving the fighter you just killed a boost to their hp and bab.

If your GM is allowing 3.5 stuff, look in the book Libris Mortis. There are a selection of feats along the Corpse Crafter line that give your animated undead 4 str and 2 hp/hd (like augment summoning, but for animated dead) and another interesting one that causes any that die to explode in a burst of negative energy.

Taking this with a bunch of bloody skeletons is hilarity itself, as all your low level minions get wiped out with a fireball, then explode for 2d6 negative energy that damages the baddie and heals your strong minion. Then after combat they re-assemble themselves as bloody skeletons are wont to do :)

Also, look at the feat from the same book called Undead Leadership. Its like leadership but you get an undead cohort and followers, and your leadership score is 2 higher for attracting undead (and 4 lower for attracting living minions). Its a convenient way to get a powerful undead minion that levels with you without having to worry about keeping it docile with Control Undead spells and feats. It also works well for a necromancer wizard because you won't be dumping charisma, as thats what your Command Undead DC is based off of. As a further note to this, consider taking the Skeleton Summoner feat to keep the flavor going, as you can summon skeletal critters with your summon monster spells, and take Undead Master which increases the amount of undead you can control with your Command Undead feat, as well as animate dead. It also doubles the duration of your Command Undead Spell, making it last 2 days/lvl.

If you are playing an evil campaign, I would also recommend the feat Tomb Tainted Soul (also from Libris Mortis) for yourself and all your party members. It causes you to be healed by negative energy and damaged by positive, so if your party has an evil cleric, suddenly the channel energy is healing not only your personal minions but all the party members as well. It costs a feat slot for your whole group, but it makes playing an evil party with a cleric SO much easier. It also synergizes very nicely with the Corpse Crafter line of feats, as now every undead minion your enemies kill explodes to damage the enemies, and heal your party fighters or anyone else nearby :3 This will pretty much make your other players love having your undead horde along, even if they do slow down the fight.

Finally, if you are doing 3.5 stuff and want a prestige class, pick up Pale Master. At 4th level they get Animate Dead as a spell like ability once per day, which means NO material component cost... Takes a while to get, but it really saves money in the long run ^_^

Hope some of that helps.