Big M's page

Having read all of the posts in this thread, I should have stopped at the second one. The poster's essential point is the correct one with respect to melee fighters, certainly (which is implied in the post), and stands unchallenged by any of the various quibbles throughout.

Essentially, wholesale robbing spotlight is lame at most tables.

Wizards usually blow fighters out of the water in pretty much every way, but for the most part they don't do it by punching opponents in the face. But Eidolons do. Unlike wizards, summoners are not only vastly more powerful than fighters but also are able to show up fighters when it comes to doing exactly the one thing fighters are meant to do.

When compared to a wizard, a fighter can at least fall back on "Well, at least I can poke things with a sword good!" Compared to an eidolon, the fighter just looks pathetic.

I'm curious how other groups have dealt with ship-to-ship combat. It's great that there is a system, and it's great that it works for some things. But it has some problems, and I'm wondering how your group has dealt with those gaps. I've seen a few posts here and there, but I'm wondering, generally, how folks handled things like broadsides targeting the steering mechanism of another ship, or how folks mitigated against higher level magic, or if you added creative house rules for alchemists and shot, etc.

We are currently punting--gentlemanly agreeing not to engage in certain tactics in the interest of drama and fun, but I'm curious if your group has done something better or just different.

Speaks well but drools all over himself and others. Uncontrollable flatulance. Body odor like feces--people get woosey being near the character. Bad teeth, bad breath, bad hair. Pronounced stutter or other speach impediment or Turrets. Looks like a total mess. Things no amount of formal training can correct.

Think of that really smart professor you had in college who was just hideous. He was persuasive and you liked him, in a way, but man, look at him for a while and things get funky.

If you were going to run a game and wanted to give players a set of directions and/or restrictions that would stop any character created from “greatly” unbalancing the game, at any time during his/her progression… what would those directions/restrictions be? Or, (If your not up to that challenge)… what is one direction/restriction you feel should be on that list?

Three points

1) On your q: one direction within PF? Take down the fantasy one whole notch. 15 point buy, take away the least narratively interesting but most powerful spells (particularly those that render some skills superfluous)--glitterdust, teleports, mass puking, fly, etc. Do not allow people to craft their own magic items and don't have a flourishing economy in a magic item trade--if there even is such an economy.

2) Hack on incentives--not xp--that incentivize the playstyle you're looking for. Hero points are an attempt at this--though only middling in efficacy.

3) The problems are too fundamental to the system--maximizing tactical and strategic advantages and use of resources is what the system rewards and turns on. I'd switch to a system that incentivizes the playstyle you're looking for (say Burnng Wheel, The Riddle of Steel, Houses of the Blooded etc.) where the mechanics directly reward and incentivize storytelling. In particular, look for a system that offers rewards for failure and has less voatile & luck-based mechanics for resolving social conflicts.

Toilet mimic.

Couldn't they just mix stuff up in the kitchen, meth-lab style?

A modicrum of creativity should get you over the verisimilitude hurdle. If you want realism, um, this is both the wrong setting and wrong system. Like, isn't this the same system that lets you add row speed with sailing speed, or allow your ship to be pulled by narwhales? And an alchemist is a problem how?

I also truly dislike these encounters. It's way too hard to "solve" as puzzles (a few exceptions). They do not make the game interesting. They do not have interesting mechanics. They just punish characters in some obnoxious way. They are generally unkillable or cost tons in opportunity cost. They do not add to horror or atmosphere. They add to frustration and that is all. Frustration is an important part of these games--but these do not work well.

I got instantly tired of them in HoH. In Book VI of CC, they really depleted the energy of the game.

We have a group of savvy, experienced players, most of whom have written for RPGs. Whoever DMs is invariably very good at it. But I despise these both for their mechanics and the play of the thing in practice. I think they amount to a lazy punt, not an interesting twist.

And aren't they trying to simulate, you know, a ghostly spirit? Isn't that what we have monsters for? The mechanics are awkward and do not interact well with the rest of the system.

For your BBEG wizard--maybe consider something mildly amusing. Like an ogre or troll wizard. Or a craven goblin or kobold wizard with delusions of grandeur (and who happens to have bad breath). Or maybe even a giant who is a wizard, in the FeeFieFoeFum style with an enslaved magic harp and everything. Maybe the creature is the result of some horrible magical accident gone awry, and it baked the previous BBE Wizard in a pie. (The peasants liked the last evil wizard so much more . . . .) Wizards also give you all sorts of excuses for magical puzzles and so on in the tower, captives to rescue, etc.

For me, goblins would be a must, but I adore playing them. Maybe they have to barter with some or trick them or some such. Just can't go wrong with goblins.

I think utilizing traditional mythology is a fine idea. Norse stuff--various creatures could at various times get all mixed up, so don't sweat the details on that too hard. There's tons to plunder from Greek mythology of course, too. But either of those could be the theme of their own grand adventures entirely. Odin lost his eyepatch, or Aphrodite's daughter was turned to stone by a jealous Medusa, etc. Something based on actual history might be nice if they've studied it--they'll have a reference and get to use and expand on something they learned in school. Could work, could work.

How big is the group? Sounds kind of wonderful. I recommend some pictures for them, but you seem to grok the importance of visual aids and props here. Maybe feature some runaways from faerie tales (Jack all grown up, Grumpy the Dwarf's son, Captain Hook's rapier, etc.), or not.

After they're invested in your game, a few sessions in, at some point you can talk about the difference between 2d6 and 1d12, and 1d20 and 2d10, because then the math will mean something to them besides just you yammering away. It will mean something about the game, and it will have practical meaning for them. And that's the teachable moment.

I have done this in an elementary type setting, principally grade 5. I've also been hired to run for kids' birthday parties.

I suggest keeping things simple, and you should probably keep out some rules. Like don't penalize kids for striking to subdue. Don't mess with some of the tedious rules, and perhaps have items that allow that to work (like give someone a bag of holding or such). For treasure, have items that are a bit grander than you might normally have--like an axe that can cut through anything, or boots that let a person walk on air as if walking on the floor, or move twice as fast as anyone else. Dole out lots of situational bonuses for creative teamwork or ideas, or even attempts at creative teamwork or ideas. I'd expand those bonuses, too--give a range of +2 to +10 or even more. You want an immediate reward for the kids--positive reinforcement. (A +2 bonus is pretty crummy because the kid will only appreciate it about 10% of the time, thus I'd make it significantly higher.) Tell them expressly that you're changing some of the rules based on discussions with other people--after all, house rules are a major part of the game, right?

Be sure to plan ways for everyone to get some spotlight at the table. And be prepared to come up with some improvisational ways to give people spotlight, as some kids will naturally budge some of the others out, and not because they are malicious or anything. If a kid is smart enough to understand the value of sharing spotlight time and enabling other people to have a good time at the table, give that kid a huge something.

Aid another is always nice. Insist that they narrate how, though, before they can do so.

Where there are more than 3 choices, decide ahead of time. Like summon monster--make it only two monsters available at each level, at least for starters. Or with spells available--limit the choices down. Do this to focus their strategic choices, i.e. something that flies, or something that is tough and has a sense of smell.

Expect that many of your kids won't know certain vocabulary words so well, like "diplomacy" or "bluff."

Simple puzzles and riddles are good. It's okay if they're too easy, as the success can give momentum. You can set them up with several avenues to success.

More than combat, I'd be very careful about religion. I wouldn't do it. At all. Give the wizards and sorcerers healing spells. (Merlin had them, after all.) A druid is maybe okay, but personally I wouldn't even go that far. Don't give paladins a god--just have them be some virtuous knight of the realm.

Along that same line, I'd lay out some simple ground rules about the intent of the game. The game is about heroes, and you will reward them for being heroes and for teamwork (and then follow up on that with those bonuses).

Honesty is important to them, so I would roll in front of the screen where practicable--especially for enemy saving throws and things that don't hurt the PCs, or where there is no chance of death (2d6 damage and the character has 20 HPs). Fudging dice rolls in the interest of momentum at the table is required, though, of course. I would keep bleeding and death in the game, myself, as those are part of heroics and the basis of teamwork at the table.

Keep the enemies as monsters. Don't kill people, even bandits. Defend a town-type things are good, or save the princess from the wizard with goblin slaves. Grand, simple stories. Make sure everyone has stuff to do, although it doesn't always have to be awesome--so make sure there are some wands and such.

Selling points? Math. Probabilities. Using scarce resources. Puzzle solving. Teamwork. Vocabulary words. Talk up the probabilities at the table, and their choices. So much of this game orients on combat--that's where all the strategic and tactical decisions lie. There's very little strategy in skill rolls--you can only hand out bonuses for narration, and there's no strategic choice there. I would probably use another system myself, frankly, but I imagine Pathfinder is one you know and one you want to roll with, and that's cool.

These are my thoughts. I hope they're helpful in some way. there's more but this is all I can think of for now.

D&D becomes fugly cumbersome past level 15 or so, making it more of a chore and less of a fast-paced action game.

Agreed. Encounter design and the plenitude of incredibly powerful magic options can make story design vacillate between the tedious, the uninteresting, and the impossible. The mechanics of a tactical challenge are super unwieldy. And we don't have elegant systems for stuff like wars. When we were 12, we could spend time on the bean counting and not much mind. Not so now.