I appreciate this could probably find a home in another thread, however most was typed while in transit, and I have a small mountain of work to finish from home, limiting my forum browsing time to… well, not much, sadly. Apologies for the extra thread in advance
There are a lot of brilliant ideas in Pathfinder 2nd edition, and I have to applaud the Paizo team for their dedication to the game, courage in trying out new ideas and systems in a hobby we are all so passionate about, and discipline and level-headedness when that passion flares up over disagreements.
That being said, I have some concerns with a few of the bold ideas being presented as part of the playtest, having had a bit of time to tangle with them.
1) Critical Hits Short Version:I do not think the multiple attack penalty and creature design it demands is particularly compatible with the +10/-10 critical system. The ‘point of balance’ for both PCs and monsters is to push for a high probability to hit on the first, moderate on the second, and low on the third. Unfortunately, this runs counter to the tight math the critical hit margin system requires, and means that critical hits – especially of high attack bonus monsters – occur a lot, and specifically a lot more than people were expecting, leading to combat feeling rather brutal at times.
Long Version:
Iterative attacks were crunchy, but smart design (bear with me, here). Granting extra attacks at full bonus increases damage in big spikes (which is bad for game progression), and makes AC vs attack tricky to balance with combat being very swingy. That being said, 3rd edition had characters both increasing their damage per attack, AND increasing their number of attacks as they levelled - i.e. Damage was exponential (aka quadratic) while durability was linear.
PF2 no longer increases the number of attacks you make with level, but instead fixes it at a max of 3 (4 with haste). It also applies a multiple attack penalty for similar reasons that iterative attack penalties were a good thing for game balance; ensuring diminishing returns from spending extra actions to attack, and broadening the range of ‘viable’ target numbers. From what I can see, the system is designed around the concept that your (and their) first attack should probably hit, the second might hit, and the third is just if you're feeling lucky.
And that is fine. Great even, as it was the basis of Pathfinder 1st Edition and has been enjoyed for a decade.
However, when combined with a +10/-10 critical margin system, it means that the first attack isn't simply very likely to hit, but also likely to crit - typically with the same odds as the last attack does of hitting. Rather than critical hits being rare, they occur frequently, especially against players, given that monsters seem to have high attack bonuses for their level.
Perhaps if crits were a lot less brutal than the PF1/PF2 "double damage" paradigm, it would be less swingy... But as it stands, the tight math required for the critical margin system seems decidedly at odds with the spread-of-numbers that is at the heart of the iterative/multiple attack penalty mechanic. And as much as I like the idea of the critical margin system... I think the multiple attack penalty vs middle-ground target numbers makes for a better system overall.
2) PC Damage Calculation Short Version: I do not understand the reasoning behind switching the main contributors of PC weapon damage from feats, class features and ability scores to the potency of their magic weapon. I honestly feel that the Pathfinder 1st edition weapon damage calculation was much more rewarding, as Pathfinder 2nd Edition it is almost exclusively driven by the size of the potency rune, making it (for me at least) less about how cool my players are, and more about how shiny their magic sword is.
Long Version:
The revised action economy requires that PC damage-per-attack increase, but this was already the case in Pathfinder 1st Edition, and applying the Pathfinder Unchained alternate action economy achieved a similar result; more linear scaling of damage vs level of player characters and less rocket tag.
In Pathfinder 1st Edition damage was generally determined by a combination of Power Attack (or Deadly Aim, or Piranha Strike), Strength (or Dex), class features, feats, magic weapon bonuses, and buffs, and generally (unnecessary disclaimer: but not always) in that order. The enhancement bonus of your weapon was a significant factor, as was items granting enhancement bonuses to your Strength or Dexterity, but for the most part your ability to deal damage was at least as much about your character’s skill and experience as it was about your equipment.
Example: Take a 9th level fighter with a +2 greatsword, and Str 22 (16 + 2 from level + 4 enhancement from belt). His attack bonus is +17 (9 BAB + 2 greatsword + 2 weapon training -3 Power Attack + 1 Weapon Focus + 6 Strength), and he deals 2d6+22 (9 Strength + 2 enhancement + 2 weapon training + 9 power attack) per hit. Of that, 4 points of attack (23.5%) and 5 points of damage (17%) come from magic items – the rest is from the fighter himself.
In Pathfinder 2nd Edition damage is primarily derived from your weapon potency rune (for PCs at least), with ability scores contributing a minor amount, and class features and feats doing precious little to the numbers. Class features are more likely to reduce or negate a multiple attack penalty rather than affect damage-on-hit numbers. Perhaps the motivation was to try and streamline and control player damage by having it be determined by items that could be handed out via level milestones… but the net effect, to me at least, pushes the premise that the sword is generally more important than the choices of the person wielding it.
Example: A comparable 9th level fighter with a +2 greatsword, and Str 19 (18 +1 from level). His attack bonus is +15 (9 + 2 master + 2 weapon + 4 Strength), and his damage is 3d12+4 (2d12 magic sword, +4 Strength). In this, 13% of his attack bonus is from the weapon, but 55% of his damage is from the potency rune. In the interest of disclosure; yes, the fighter could use Power Attack to make one attack dealing 6d12+4 damage in lieu of two separate attacks, which is an overall damage upgrade due to the increased accuracy, however in such circumstances the potency rune is a whopping 60% of the damage dealt.
Perhaps there is an advantage in terms of gameplay, balance or immersion buried within this change, but I am afraid I am simply not seeing it. In essence, what matters most is the level of the character and the size of the potency rune – the other modifiers are dwarfed by these two.
3) Number Scaling This is related to the previous two in a way, admittedly.
Short Version: Most numerical bonuses are chiefly derived from level, then magic item, then ability score, and finally proficiency in Pathfinder 2nd Edition. My concern is that the former two are not character choices, and significantly dwarf the latter, which are. To me, the drive to constrain the numbers has pushed it to the point where the choices a player makes do not feel like they make enough of a difference, compared to the baked in numbers of the system.
Long Version:
While I appreciate the desire to have less divergence of numbers than in Pathfinder 1st Edition at higher levels, I feel Pathfinder 2nd Edition has gone significantly too far to homogenize the achievable numbers and prevent players from pushing their numbers either too high or too low. Instead, characters are forced to exist within a relatively (compared to other games) narrow band for our given level.
The +Level Complaint: The reason that “+ Level to everything” is unpopular is not (I think) because people dislike having a scaling factor to ensure players experience an appropriate level of challenge with given levels of opponent/obstacle. I believe it is unpopular because it is a) not something they get to choose, and b) overwhelms the bonus granted by what they do get to choose. In other words, it makes people feel like their choices matter less.
And unfortunately, such feelings are somewhat justified. Yes, the +1 bonus from Expert is still functionally useful, but its importance is easy to get lost in the noise of the +level and d20 roll.
The Case of the Impossible Con: As both a player and GM, I like social scenes in my games, and one of the cornerstones of social encounters is that, because it isn’t usually a combat encounter, the NPCs in question do not need to be a combat challenge in order to be a social challenge for the PCs…. At least in Pathfinder 1st Edition. Pathfinder 2nd Edition has the problem that not only is Sense Motive rolled into Perception, but everyone is trained in it and adds their level to it, making the ability for low level characters to meaningfully use social skills against the PCs… hard.
Intentionally or no, by hard-coding level into everything, it means that in order to pose a challenge to the PCs in any way, an NPC must pose a challenge to the PC in every way by being of sufficient level to be viable. This is a lot more restrictive on social encounters that I expected, or am particularly comfortable with, I'm afraid.
Lament for the bard:
On a tangent: The bard is one of my favourite classes in Pathfinder, in part because of its incredible versatility. It is also a class that carries a lot of baggage, as the stereotype of the foppish, useless, prancing minstrel has dogged its heels for decades. Statements like "Bards make a great 5th party member, because you have the basics covered and they make you better" have been uttered more times than I can count.
I was thrilled with the move Pathfinder 1st Edition made to turn the Bard from the jester of the adventuring class ensemble to a genuine hero and protagonist in their own right; streamlined mechanics, potent spells and a pile of varied and interesting archetypes. I had hoped this trend would continue, and looked forward to seeing the next evolution of the class.
I must confess to being somewhat (okay, in truth, profoundly) disappointed with the Pathfinder 2nd Edition bard.
In a sense, I understand and can sympathise: If the majority of the customers genuinely wish for the return to stereotype for the class, such that it 'feels like the bard they knew', then fulfilling said market demand is probably the best course of action for Paizo. I had, however, been hopeful that the bard would have remained a versatile character class, capable of being a hero in its own right rather than a party-buff machine (noting that such characters get progressively less effective in smaller parties).
Table 10-2 in the Playtest rulebook was something I found somewhat confusing, and I must admit to some relief that the numbers were under review. Having the new table in my hands (well, on my computer), I must admit to being curious as to the design philosophy behind the math.
From what I can tell, the table assumes that for any given check a character is going to increase their bonus by an amount greater than their increase in level. In other words, for any check, you must invest in item bonuses, increased proficiencies or increased ability scores in order to keep pace. What has changed is that the degree to which this applies.
Example: A Dex 18 ranger wanting to make the Ultimate Stealth check at 1st level needed to roll a 13 on a d20. That's a 35% chance of success.
At 20th level, having put burned one of their precious 3 legendary skills on Stealth, raised their Dex to 22, and invested in Greater Shadow armor, and their bonus rises to a mighty +33. Awesome! So now when they attempt the Ultimate Stealth check... they need to roll a 14 to succeed. That's a 30% chance of success.
This represents a character investing as much as possible into a skill to have a reduced chance of achieving the highest tier of difficulty.
Let's look at what happens when attempting a skill check for something other than you're limited 'specialised' skills:
At 1st level, Easy DC = 8, Hard DC = 15, Ultimate DC = 18
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 14, and 17 on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.
At 5th level, Easy DC = 12, Hard DC = 20, Ultimate DC = 23
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 15, and 18 on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.
At 10th level, Easy DC = 17, Hard DC = 27, Ultimate DC = 32
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 17, and 22 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.
At 15th level, Easy DC = 22, Hard DC = 33, Ultimate DC = 40
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 18, and 25 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.
At 20th level, Easy DC = 27, Hard DC = 39, Ultimate DC = 47
A Trained character with a 10 in the relevant skill needs a 7, 19, and 27 (i.e. impossible) on the die to succeed at the respective difficulties.[/spoiler]
This is better than the previous table in the Rulebook, but the pattern is fairly straight forward: Unless you invest into it (skill increases, magic items, ability score boosts), your training will only keep pace with the lowest tier of difficulty.
My question here is... Why?
Surely investing everything possible should improve the odds of succeeding at heroic challenges, not - at best - tread water? Surely non-rogue characters shouldn't be pushed into having to pick just 3 skills to be competent at?
Then again, I might simply be misunderstanding the design intent of the skill DC table.
As a disclaimer, I’m of the opinion that the ruleset that has been put out to playtest is around 90% of the way towards being a great system that I am eager to play. My interest is primarily in improving the game that is being developed to get it the rest of the way.
On Touch AC: Running the numbers of the first few hundred entries in the Pathfinder 2 Playtest Bestiary, 97% of creatures have a touch AC between 0 and 4 points less than their regular AC, with the average being around 1.95 less. For game balance, this makes sense; having too low a touch AC means a creature can be not only hit more, but crit much more by touch attacks. Thematically… the fact that a colossal dragon has the same difference between touch and regular AC as a gnoll is a little weird.
I am not sure of how the math for determining monster AC vs Touch AC works, as that hasn’t been published yet, but for PCs it is derived from the two separate AC values granted by armor, which yields difference of 0 (for unarmoured characters) and 4 (for fullplate). In essence, the same spread as we see in the overwhelming majority of monsters.
I have to ask the question: Is the added complexity of deriving touch AC from equipment and other modifiers adding to the game, or would the simple statement of “Your touch AC is 2 less than your regular AC” be sufficient? Incorporeal creatures could simply have the special rule that their touch AC is equal to their regular AC, and anything that is particularly ungainly, could simply have the “Ungainly” special quality to cause their touch AC to be 4 points lower than their regular AC.
On Armor: Given that medium and heavy armor costs more, is bulkier, requires additional feats (if it’s not a class proficiency), slows movement, penalizes a broad array of skills and at times even limits saving throws, it offers disturbingly little in return – offering only equal AC (and lower touch AC) than a high-Dex light armor character without fighter or paladin (heavy only) proficiency boosts. Furthermore, given the mobility of Pathfinder 2 combat, restriction on ability modifiers and skill modifiers attainable and scaling DCs… I can’t help but feel like the penalties of heavy armor are actually more significant in Pathfinder 2 than they were in Pathfinder 1, while the benefits are less.
Historically, the motivation behind heavy armor was that it allowed characters to focus on raising Strength, and not need much Dex, however given the hard limitations on how high a single attribute can be raised, and push to instead raise multiple stats, the main advantage of the heavy armor route seems to be lost, especially at higher levels when many characters can easily attain a Dex of 18 or so even when it is a secondary stat. To me, this also has the issue of pushing characters towards more homogenous builds (neglecting Dex at character creation, when you can't afford full plate, means a low AC, and wearing both more hits and more crits), which is a tad disappointing.
For example:
A starting human barbarian could go Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14 and wear a breastplate for AC17, TAC15, taking the Fleet feat to offset the speed penalties, but still have a -4 ACP. They could instead take Str 18, Dex 16, Con 12, a chain shirt and the Toughness feat to have (long term) similar resilience, but AC16, TAC14, full speed and only a -1 ACP. They could go Str 18, Dex 14, Con 14 and take Armor Proficiency and buy splint mail for AC 18, TAC14, but with -3 ACP and -10ft speed.
The heavy armor offers slightly more AC, but at considerable cost.
As the barbarian gains levels and opportunities to raise Dex (along with 3 other stats), they have a choice; Stick with medium or heavy armor, or raise Dex and drop to lighter armor for the increased convenience. For example;
At 5th level raising Dex to 16 negates the benefit of heavy armor – instead heavy armor offers the same AC, but with lower touch AC, greater bulk and greater speed reduction.
At 10th (or 5th, if you start with Dex 16) level raising Dex to 18 makes even medium armor a difficult prospect, as a chain shirt offers an AC 1 less, the same touch AC, but with virtually no penalties of any kind.
So why use heavy armor? As far as I can tell, it amounts to two reasons: Because you’re playing a paladin; or because, numbers and quality of life be damned, your character concept wears heavy armor as a style statement.
Armor and Resistance, A Proposal: As an alternative to having separate Touch AC statistics and the present numbers for armor, I’d like to propose the idea that armor could grant a certain amount of resistance to all damage types.
I’d pitch that the base amount of resistance armor offers be equal to the current amount of touch AC bonus it gives, and that it does not stack with other resistances (e.g. the barbarian class feature, resist energy spells and so on). Potency runes would then increase the resistance granted as follows:
Light Armor increases the resistance by an amount equal to the potency
Medium Armor increases the resistance by an amount equal to twice the potency
Heavy Armor increases the resistance by an amount equal to three times the potency
Thus, a Dex 12 character in +5 full plate may have an AC comparable to that of a Dex 20 character in a +5 chain shirt, but where the master light armor offers 6 resistance, full movement speed, no check penalty and half the bulk, the master heavy armor offers 17 resistance, but at a -10 movement speed, and still has a -3 armor check penalty. This makes it a tradeoff between skill & mobility vs protection, which I believe to be closer to the intent behind armor selection.
At least, this is my 2c, based on creating and playing a few different characters at low level.
As a disclaimer, I’m of the opinion that the ruleset that has been put out to playtest is around 90% of the way towards being a great system that I am eager to play. My interest is primarily in improving the game that is being developed to get it the rest of the way.
On paper, there is a simple elegance to the concept of using Perception and Stealth for initiative in combat; using the necessary rolls of Perception vs. Stealth to determine who can see what on entering a room to determine the initiative order.
Unfortunately, our experience is that this isn’t as elegant in play as it appears on paper.
Firstly, we found that it makes the transition from exploration to encounter mode jarring rather than smooth and natural; asking all players to roll Perception in a seemingly empty room and taking note of the individual scores was an obvious out-of-character cue that the party was entering Encounter mode, regardless of whether their characters saw anything. On paper, it looks an elegant and immersive way of handling initiative, but we found it to be quite the opposite.
Secondly, it has a number of problems when it comes to what checks are used for initiative. Not only does it open a can of worms with regards to pausing play while more ambitious players attempt to argue different skills could apply, but it has issues with simple play at the table, as there are potentially a lot of rolls involved.
Take the example of a room with hiding monsters, and several of the PCs sneaking during Exploration mode; All players need to roll Perception, sneaking players also roll Stealth, the monsters all need to roll Stealth, and either need to roll Perception too, or otherwise use their “Perception DC” (which is essentially take-10). This exact situation occurred while I was GMing, where I found that all the PCs failed to even sense the monsters, but as the sneaking PCs rolled very high, they not only weren’t sensed by the monsters, but because their Stealth is their initiative score, they go first in a combat they don’t know they’re in.
Naturally, experiences will differ from table to table, but we simply did not enjoy the change to initiative.
Proposal: I can see at least two options which would result in a smoother transition from exploration to combat:
Exclusively use Perception for Initiative, except that creatures who the enemy are unaware of automatically go first if they initiate combat. In essence, gaining the “go first” advantage instead of the PF1 surprise round.
Reinstate having a designated Initiative modifier. By preference the default would be Level + Dex, though certain class features or feats may allow alternative ability scores to be used (e.g. Int or Wis). Rather than giving Expertise and later Mastery in Perception, certain classes (e.g. fighter, rogue) can simply receive a bonus to Initiative checks. As per the previous suggestion, creatures who successfully surprise their foes simply go first in initiative order, regardless of their initiative check result.
Either of these streamline the system and allow the transition from exploration to encounter mode to be somewhat more fluid – encounters begin once combat starts, not when creatures attempt to perceive what may or may not be in the room.
Given the vast amount of content produced by Paizo for Pathfinder 1, I have to admit some trepidation when PF2 was announced - especially given the rather unpleasant experience in trying to convert between PF1 and 5E at times.
Thankfully, Paizo seem to have nailed this reasonably well - DC and Saves diverge somewhat, but that is inevitable given the change to how they are calculated. Some of the numbers naturally need to adjust, but on the whole the tone, feel, challenge and abilities of the creatures are retained.
There are a few notable exceptions, such as most outsiders losing greater teleport at will, and instead getting dimension door... but frankly I think in that instance that is for the better. Having that escape-and-return-to-murder-you-in-your-sleep ability attached to a vast array of common foes was always unnecessary and often ignored by GMs who just wanted a straight-up-fight.
Some examples:
CR 2 Boar vs Level 2 Boar:
The humble boar is CR2 in Pathfinder 1, and Level 2 in Pathfinder 2
AC: 14 (PF1) vs 15 (PF2)
HP: 18 (PF1) vs 30 (PF2)
Attack: +4 (PF1) vs +8 (PF2)
Damage: 1d8+4 (PF1) vs 1d8+4 (PF2)
Saves: Fort+6, Ref+3, Will+1 (PF1) vs Fort+4, Ref+2, Will+1
This seems a big divergence - double the hit points and +4 to attack, however it is also understandable: In PF1 PCs had to wait to get multiple attacks, while in PF2 they have 3 actions - each of which could potentially be an attack - from 1st level.
The higher attack bonus is more notable, but this ties into three things: Armor gives a lower AC bonus at 1st level; PCs add their level to their AC; and PCs not only have (roughly) 24-25pt gen by standard, but have bonus hp from their race.
Using the PF1 boar RAW in a PF2 game would perhaps be a bit too easy, but not game breaking.
CR2 Bugbear vs Level 2 Bugbear:
AC: 17 (PF1) vs 15 (PF2)
HP: 16 (PF1) vs 35 (PF2)
Attack: +5 (PF1) vs +8 (PF2)
Damage: 1d8+3 (PF1) vs 1d8+3 (PF2)
Saves: Fort+2, Ref+4, Will+1 (PF1) vs Fort+7, Ref+6, Will+4
So in PF2 the bugbear has lower AC - which is apt as the PF1 bugbear had much higher AC than normal for its level - but higher hp. Its damage is similar, though it also has a much higher attack bonus. It also has bigger saves.
CR9 Tyrannosaurus vs Level 10 Tyrannosaurus:
AC: 21 (PF1) vs 25 (PF2)
HP: 153 (PF1) vs 233 (PF2)
Attack: +20 (PF1) vs +20 (PF2)
Damage: 4d6+22 (PF1) vs 3d12+7 (PF2)
Saves: Fort+15, Ref+12, Will+10 (PF1) vs Fort+19, Ref+15, Will+14
Hello! This is an interesting case: The PF2 version is 1 CR higher, and comes with high AC and HP, but unlike the lower level creatures, its attack bonus is the same. An interesting thing is the damage; the PC eating PF1 T-Rex's average of 36 damage on the bite is significantly more than the PF2 average of 26.
If we ran the PF1 T-Rex in PF2 mechanics, we'd have a significantly more fragile creature, but with extra damage - more of a glass cannon, essentially - compared with the PF2 version. Though I'd argue it wouldn't be unworkable, merely different.
CR10 Fire Giant vs Level 10 Fire Giant:
AC: 23 (PF1) vs 28 (PF2)
HP: 142 (PF1) vs 165 (PF2)
Attack: +21 (PF1) vs +20 (PF2)
Damage: 3d6+15 (PF1) vs 2d12+14 (PF2)
Saves: Fort+14, Ref+4, Will+9 (PF1) vs Fort+18, Ref+14, Will+16
Interesting! The PF2 version of the iconic fire giant has more AC and slightly more hitpoints, but roughly the same attack and damage. The saves are also much higher, but that is expected given the way DCs are calculated in PF2 (full level, rather than half).
The big thing here is AC - using a PF1 fire giant statblock in a PF2 game would be akin to running a PF2 fire giant who forgot his armor.
CR20 Balor vs Level 20 Balor:
AC: 36 (PF1) vs 44 (PF2)
HP: 370 (PF1) vs 460 (PF2)
Attack: +31 (PF1) vs +35 (PF2)
Damage: 2d6+13 (PF1) vs 6d8+18 (PF2)
Saves: Fort+29, Ref+17, Will+25 (PF1) vs Fort+30, Ref+30, Will+33
We're now in crazy land. At this point, a PF2 Balor is a bigger, badder demon than its PF1 counterpart.
Overall, the numbers do fluctuate a little (as demonstrated in the above), but on the whole the PF1 numbers actually unusable or hard to adapt to get 'on feel' for PF2.
Being able to grab any one of Paizo's wonderfully horrible PF1 creations, give it a quick massage and throw it into the PF2 ring is amazing, as it gives us a back-catalogue of content that is easily usable.
I'm keen to hear how others are finding converting Pathfinder content to the new mechanics.
FOREWORD
Much as I did for Council of Thieves, this isn’t a blow-by-blow account of our play through of Hell’s Rebels, but instead a combination of a review, a summary of our own experiences and a number of recommendations.
I’d also like to take a moment to say that although I will frequently level criticism at the published modules, I would never claim them to be anything less than excellent – Paizo’s ability to consistently produce high quality content is something to be applauded. Loudly and frequently.
So without further ado… Hell’s Rebels.
ADVENTURE PATH COMMENTARY Hell’s Rebels is frequently hailed as one of – if not the – best adventure paths Paizo have produced, and given the outstanding job they did with Barzillai Thrune and the truly epic finale in the last instalment, I can absolutely understand why.
After my own turn at the GM seat with this adventure path, I am going to have to dissent a little from popular opinion though: Hell’s Rebels is good – excellent even – but I would not suggest it was one of their best offerings. This isn’t simply nostalgia for Runelords or Crimson Throne, and will require a little bit more than a paragraph to properly explain, so I’ll beg your indulgence a little longer.
COMPLIMENTS
The old adage that it is a villain that makes the show largely holds true, and in Hell’s Rebels the Paizo team absolutely nailed it. Barzillai Thrune isn’t just a good villain, he is an amazing villain. Paizo also managed to avoid the primary failing of campaigns such as Carrion Crown and Council of Thieves and didn’t hide the villain away: Barzillai Thrune is not only excellently written, but on camera and being the villain from the first scene to the last. He is a vivid and brilliant antagonist that gives the players a clear focus for their efforts, and the story depth and meaning. My hat goes off to the Paizo team for an awesome job.
While Barzillai is most certainly the adventure path’s greatest strength – and one that will cause most groups to forgive any number of sins - there are a number of other excellent pieces of work within. Several characters – Rexus in particular – are well rounded personalities who neither steal the limelight nor fade away completely, and add some beautifully human drama to the game. Scenarios such as the Ruby Masquerade and the Tower of Bone are almost guaranteed to be remembered fondly for years to come.
It’s a fun, action packed romp where the players get to be heroes to a beleaguered city and the lands around it.
CRITICISMS
My earlier comment about Barzillai being such a grand villain that most groups would forgive any number of sins was not without reason; there are an unfortunate number of structural flaws with Hell’s Rebels.
If I had to level but a single criticism at the adventure path, it would be that it has a chronic lack of focus. As others have rightly commented, the campaign is one of heroic adventure, but despite the name and premise, features little to no actual rebellion on the part of the PCs. Indeed, the focus of the adventure appears to meander away from those elements that are integral to the theme of rebellion at every opportunity to instead feature monsters, criminals and cultists who have little (if anything) to do with the pitched story, but instead simply keep the PCs entertained while they level up enough to take on Barzillai. This is likely the issue that most players will take note of, as it is the most obvious.
There are a number of other issues that may not bother most groups, as the degree to which narrative cohesion matters to the table varies greatly from group to group. Considering my games often include those with backgrounds in literary and film arts, it’s something I am accustomed to paying attention to.
NARRATIVE WEIRDNESS:
The plot of Hell’s Rebels is weird.
The premise of the game is that there is a greater revolution going on throughout Cheliax in the form of the Glorious Reclamation, but the mostly-chaotic-aligned Kintargo will not try to work with the mostly-lawful-aligned Iomedaen order (though they will work with the exclusively-lawful-aligned Hellknights of the Torrent). From a narrative perspective this makes sense: Involving the Glorious Reclamation in Hell’s Rebels would put the PCs walking in the shadows of giants, as the bigger and more interesting story isn’t theirs, and that makes for a poor game. From a strategic and character logic perspective, it makes very little sense to try to “go it alone” against Thrune when there are potential allies just on the other side of Menador Pass (literally).
Which also leads on to the second weirdness: Why would anyone of consequence side with the rebels against Thrune, when the PCs don’t discover any means of preventing Thrune from simply waltzing in and burning them to ash later until they have already killed Barzillai. The only logic that puts siding with the rebels as anything other than total suicide, is the assumption that the Glorious Reclamation is going to win…. But even then, if the Glorious Reclamation do overthrow Thrune, then the Kintargo Rebellion is largely redundant and there is no need for anyone to stick their neck out when they can simply wait for the paladins to overthrow Abrogail and save them all. Thankfully there is a relatively simple solution, if one that is tricky to implement: Get the Kintargo Contract (or knowledge of the loophole at least) into the PCs hands early in the adventure – by the end of Book 2 at the latest.
Which leads to the third weirdness: Who were the old Silver Ravens supposed to be? The writeup casts them as ‘rebels’ who were heroes of the streets with hidden safehouses, yet also responsible for defeating armies invading Ravounel. The problem is that these are contradictory. Either they were rebels trying (and failing for 30+ years) to overthrow an unwanted government, who would need safehouses and subterfuge, OR they were the primary military force in the region defending it from incursions from elsewhere in Cheliax – in essence making them part of a local, ‘rebel’, govenment. Both are ‘rebels’ in some fashion, but one group cannot be both simultaneously. Given the almost complete lack of any kind of context as to what the political situation in Ravounel was during the civil war, it’s anyone’s guess as to what they were supposed to be (and there are some reasonable suggestions on the forums), but they cannot be as is suggested in their writeup.
Coming back to the Kintargo Contract, we then run into a fourth batch of weirdness: The Cheliax Covenant appears to be introduced as part of Hell’s Rebels and isn’t mentioned even in Cheliax: The Infernal Empire. That would be fine, if they explained more thoroughly what it actually did. The writeup suggests that the Covenant grants a few devils as support for Thrune’s armies, but mostly exists to bind the church of Asmodeus to support House Thrune. That’s… fine, except it means the Kintargo Contract doesn’t do what Abrogail I intended it to do – which is to protect her if the Church of Asmodeus ever seized control of Cheliax, as they could simply break the covenant and actually then have an easier time. There is also the larger issue of the Glorious Reclamation, and the fact that Kintargo would probably be better off breaking the Cheliax covenant to weaken Thrune and grant the Glorious Reclamation greater odds of victory, rather than relying on the somewhat tissue-thin defense the contract offers.
The final batch of weirdness is the fact that the PCs defeat Barzillai at the end of Book 4 and largely complete the internal rebellion, leaving Book 5 and 6 to the very different challenge of consolidating power and establishing a new and independent Ravounel. The issue is that this is a dramatic change in tone, and for many PCs will make little to no sense that they are the ones doing it… except for the fact that “It’s a D&D game”. Adding to this, unfortunately Book 5 comes across as make-work to keep the PCs busy until Book 6, whereby the rules of Barzillai’s genius loci ritual suddenly change because of Plot: Rather than becoming Cheliax at the end of his natural life, he is instead going to become Ravounel (only) in… a few weeks.
DARLINGS AND DISTRACTIONS:
As I’ve mentioned, most of the adventure path is spent fighting anything except House Thrune and the Church of Asmodeus. Some of these other foes make sense, as it establishes the Silver Ravens as a force that can provide security and justice where Barzillai cannot… but too many are simply distractions that consume page count and screen time while adding little to the overall story. To give a relatively quick breakdown:
Cult of Norgorber: Hei Fen and the cult of Norgorber add pretty much zilch to the story of rebellion against Thrune. She has a weak personal motivation while her cult has virtually no motiviation to oppose the PCs at all, and don’t advance the plot in any meaningful way.
The Lucky Bones: It arrives late (as the third base of operations), occupies the majority of a book, and achieves very little, if anything. Indeed, it is exactly what you don’t want for a hidden base in a settlement (what you want is somewhere with lots of entrances and exits and a cover story for the heavy traffic, and the Lucky Bones lacks both).
The Acisazi: In the middle of liberating your home city from Thrune, you detour off to help the independent, isolationist village, who in turn might lend some token aid in the rebellion. Overall, they largely serve as a distraction for novelty’s sake.
Tayacet Tiora: Tayacet occupies the position of a character who could have added a unique angle to the story – a private investigator or dottari detective who is won over by the heroism of the Silver Ravens. Instead, she is a tourist who ultimately adds nothing that could not have been done more easily and efficiently with other established characters.
Shensen: Shensen is loud, brash, confident, powerful (moreso than a PC at the time) and with a raft of achievements already, making her command spotlight time like no other. These are fantastic traits for a PC, and in my experience terrible for an NPC, whose first and foremost job is to support the PCs and not upstage them. I originally had a substantially longer and somewhat ranty series of paragraphs on the topic of Shensen, but instead I will summarise with one contraction: Don’t.
Natsiel: Hetamon Haace is awesome. One of the many reasons he’s awesome is that he is a settled, confident and mature man who isn’t angsting about his terrible ancestry. He is also an NPC, who the PCs may or may not develop a rapport with, and may well know nothing of his backstory. His mother, who is a CE demon-lord worshipping half-succubus and who should not be insane enough to even consider approaching an inquisitor of Asmodeus for an alliance, has no actual contribution to make to the story other than to provide some different monsters to beat up.
Church of Zon Kuthon: It has been commented that Nidal originally had a larger place in the story, but was cut late in development as it was decided it was a distraction. A decision I wholeheartedly agree with, and suggest that GMs go a step further and cut down the presence of Zon-Kuthon even more, potentially even removing the Shadowsquare altogether.
The Strix: Like the Acisazi, the Strix are big on novelty value… and have little to no importance to the plot or theme of rebellion and independence. They’re an isolationist tribe of monstrous humanoids hiding in the forest.
Mangvhune: Yes, he is part of Kintargo’s backstory. Yes, he is cool. No, he has no relation to the theme of rebellion and independence, nor does his showing up and murdering people advance the plot in any way. His sole potential value is in foreshadowing the soul anchor, but not only is that not actually required, but as-written he doesn’t really do so.
The Devil’s Bells: While these have a tactical element within the temple of Asmodeus… they also seem to mostly serve as a massive distraction, and to usurp the position of Barzillai as the climax of the fourth book. Interesting idea, but adds very little and has way too much prominence for my tastes.
THE REBELLION MINIGAME:
The rebellion mechanics is a minigame with minimal tie-in to PC action or character mechanics – it is a severe abstraction, yet also mechanically somewhat cumbersome, especially at the early, formative levels.
It is rushed in its introduction, typically being rolled out at the end of the first or second session, which feels extremely forced when many PC concepts and the provided backgrounds don’t lend themselves to leading a rebellion quite so soon. It also has very little to do with actually rebelling, as the majority of the team efforts are related to acquiring magic items or wealth, or manipulating the city statblock or the rebellion encounter table results. Indeed, the best use of the system is to mostly focus on recruitment and then lying low to reduce Notoriety. It is also a touch inconsistent across the books exactly what the rebellion system is supposed to do.
Probably my greatest criticisms, however, stem from two perculiar aspects of it: Firstly that teams of 1st to 2nd level NPCs can frequently do with ease what PCs can only achieve with extreme difficulty – if at all, which strikes me as being patently unfair and undermining the heroism of the PCs. And secondly it is all too often used as a token (and ultimately useless) reward for PC activity and heroism. Take the Vyre Accord for example – effort, challenge, enjoyment and expense (500-1000 gp) to achieve what basically amounts to a bonus action each week that occupies a PC’s time to gain between 25-100gp a week for the rebellion – i.e. peanuts, especially in comparison to what it cost to achieve the accord in the first place.
My overall recommendation with the Rebellion minigame is to avoid it altogether.
FACELESS HENCHMEN:
Barzillai Thrune is an utterly glorious villain, and Paizo deserve a standing ovation for such a love-to-hate maniacal antagonist.
The other antagonists of note unfortunately don’t get the same treatment. Indeed, bit-part characters like Azvernathi Raul get more of a write-up than power houses like Vannases Trex, Tiarise Izoni, Corinstian Grivenner, Zella Zidlii or Kyrre Ekodyre. These five in particular are (in theory) Barzillai’s right hand minions in his diabolical mistreatment of the Kintargan people, but there is a major dearth of information on who they are and how to portray them, let alone anything to make them memorable.
While Barzillai having a significant stage presence is the main driving force of the adventure, I sincerely believe that giving some camera time to his main cronies would have added to the game, rather than detracted from it. Especially compared to the utility of characters like Molly Mayapple.
THE LOST & ABANDONED:
Given the proliferation of plot-irrelevant adversaries, it is not surprising, but still disappointing, that so many plot-relevant adversaries were lost or forgotten along the way.
House Sarini: They were mentioned in Book 1, with a bit of foreshadowing in the form of Blosodriette and… never mentioned again. Surely the Fools of Thrune should have some presence during the adventure path, opposing the PCs?
Hellknights of the Rack: Other than random encounter tables, they appear only in Book 4, when you chase them out of the city with their tails between their legs. They are absolutely the best Hellknight order to be antagonists in Hell’s Rebels, but managed to be almost completely unutilized.
Chelish Citizen’s Group: They were good thugs and troublemakers in Book 1… but are largely invisible in Books 2-3 and only mentioned as background text in Book 4 with the exception of the insanely-high-level Tombus. Given they were a loosely-tied and relatively week branch of Thrune’s rule, they made an ideal low-level antagonist against whom the PCs could score some early victories against Barzillai… but instead they are largely forgotten and cleaned up off camera in Book 4, along with everything else.
Aristocracy: Wealth, power, land, soldiers. The nobility form a tier of government who have seen the top position commandeered by a tyrannical lunatic by the name of Barzillai Thrune, and yet, they have virtually no presence throughout the entire adventure path beyond providing a bunch of extra supporters to crank the rebellion minigame wheel.
Alabaster Academy: One of the great hallmarks of Kintargo is almost completely unused – and I say ‘almost’ only because Mangvhune appears there (sort of) in Book 5. As a fan of Les Miserables, where are the student protests? I cannot help but feel this was a missed opportunity.
WHO ARE THE DOTTARI?:
There is a curious thing in Hell’s Rebels: The dottari are all Lawful Evil. Even the Chelish Citizen’s Groups thugs are merely LN, but the dottari are LE. All of them.
This is curious because, unless Barzillai imported them all from Egorian (at which point, where are the old ones?), they previously are an organization that reported to Jilia Bainilus, who almost certainly would not have appointed and promoted recruitment of such a police force. You could argue that they’ve been brainwashed by asmodean inquisitors…. But Barzillai has only been in town a week.
Personally, I replaced most instances where LE dottari are needed with hellknight armigers, and instead made the dottari mostly N, locals, and generally just decent people doing what they’re told.
LESSON’S LEARNED & RECOMMENDATIONS:
While many of the smaller details are gorgeous, the structural issues in Hell’s Rebels I found to actually be greater than Council of Thieves (which I’ve had a few words to say on in the past). In order to keep things manageable, I’ll try to punch these out by bullet point:
1. Ignore the Glorious Reclamation. They are not intended to play a role in this adventure, and frankly it is usually better for the players if they are never mentioned or simply do not exist. The empire can be experiencing a period of heightened unrest without it being an organized force opposing Thrune.
2. Decide Who the Silver Ravens Were. As mentioned previously, they either need to be rebelling against an internal or external authority – pick one. Once you decide who they were, be prepared to adjust a lot of things. My own preference is to have them be a long-standing organization that is an ancient tradition of Ravounel, who worked as rangers, protectors and mediators. Think a cross between Tolkien’s rangers and the Jedi Order. This means that there were no secret headquarters, but instead they were based out of Castle Kintargo and only stashed caches immediately before surrendering at the end of the civil war.
3. Ignore the Minigame. Completely. I have some suggestions for an alternative if you want to keep track of player progress through the adventure.
4. Figure out the Covenant. The Cheliax Covenant somehow grants Thrune some form of alliance with hell. And when it is broken, Thrune is weakened in some fashion. And it will also impact the church of Asmodeus too, in some way. Figure out what it does and what happens if it is broken…. And why the PCs shouldn’t do so. I recommend having its termination clause be that all of Cheliax (i.e. not Ravounel) is burned in hellfire, so that neither the PCs nor Thrune would want it going off. Furthermore, the earlier the knowledge of the Kintargo Contract gets into the PCs hands, the better – I recommend prior to the beginning of Book 3.
5. Focus on the Rebellion. Throw in extra scenarios based on sabotage, stealing weapons and supplies, propaganda, fighting Thrune injustices in the streets. Put in some detail about who and what Barzillai’s forces are, which can be targets for the PCs. Throw out superfluous stuff like the Norgorbites and the Acisazi (and others).
6. Show, Don’t Tell. Don’t tell the PCs they are leading a rebellion. Show them Barzillai’s atrocities – make them stand up and fight and have people follow them because of their actions. Don’t be afraid to go most of Book 1 before the PCs ‘feel’ like they’re rebel leaders.
7. Establish the Main HQ Early. By the end of Book 1 by preference, or the start of Book 2 at the latest. Ignore the Lucky Bones it doesn’t work as a base anyway, and is too much effort for what it is worth. In hindsight, I’d preferred to have redesigned the Fair Fortune Livery to be a larger complex, where the initial exploration is only in the entrance, and the location and method of opening a secret door to the rest be encoded in the documents. This would be less of a “Silver Raven” base, so much as an old criminal hideout they cleared out decades beforehand.
8. Give Personality to the Henchmen. Tiarise, Kyrre, Trex and so forth need some personality, and also a chance to get those personalities on camera for the players to feel any real satisfaction in their defeat. It’s not about how hard the fight is, it’s about how much the players want them dead.
9. Don’t be Afraid to Shuffle. My own recommendations are: Move Vyre to Book 5; Get the Kintargo Contract to the PCs as early as possible (before Book 3); Move some of the named antagonists out of Book 4 and into Books 3 and 5.
10. Avoid Busy Work and Railroads. Find a reason why certain tasks need to be done (like most of Book 5) that PCs will buy, and do your best to keep it feeling heroic. Also, avoid railroading the PCs into scenarios that don’t feel like victory – Jilia being Lord-Mayor again, for example.
ALTERNATIVE REBELLION IDEA
As mentioned previously, the rebellion minigame doesn’t actually deal much with rebelling. To the point that when Book 4 rolled along and it was time to take arms and rise up against the Thrune oppressors in open result… a completely different system was introduced: Authority Points.
Now, the exact system published in Song of Silver is absolutely not appropriate for use outside that adventure, and I wouldn’t recommend doing so. But a system that was, perhaps, inspired by the Authority Point rules might be something that is usuable, both to measure PC victories, and to provoke reprisals/reactions from Barzillai to regain points, such that he is a dynamic and ‘live’ opponent.
AUTHORITY POINTS:
Barzillai’s control over the city is abstracted as his Authority points, which goes up and down over the course of the campaign, though trends downward as the heroes whittle it away. Authority represents a number of things, including the number, morale and loyalty of his armed forces, the confidence/fear of the citizenry and the strongholds and assets at his command.
At the start of the campaign, Barzillai has 100 Authority points. As the campaign progresses the PCs will chip away at this with their actions, and Barzillai will recoup some via reprisals and recruitment.
Gaining Authority: Barzillai gains Authority through successful reprisals, crackdowns and recruitment. He also gains Authority whenever the PCs fail (or are forced to retreat) at a mission that would have caused him to lose Authority had they succeeded, albeit only typically a point or two. A captured or killed PC causes him to gain a number of Authority points equal to half their level (minimum 1).
Recruitment: As long as Barzillai has at least 1 point of Authority, he will gain 1d6 points of Authority per week, due to recruitment, fresh supplies and general enforcement of his will. In Song of Silver this will increase to 1d6 per day.
Losing Authority: Barzillai loses Authority whenever the PCs succeed at a mission that undermines his rule, when his minions are defeated (typically 1 Authority point per 2,000xp worth of minion), or when his assets are sabotaged or stolen. Other actions, such as propaganda by the PCs, can also reduce his Authority.
Details: I would recommend that Barzillai’s forces at the start of the campaign look something like;
Order of the Rack: 75 Hellknight Armigers (Fighter 2); 25 Hellknights (Fighter 5 / Hellknight 1)
Asmodeans: 24 Templar (Fighter 2); 6 Templar Officers (Fighter 5); 24 Acolytes (Cleric 2); 12 Priests (Cleric 5); A handful of named inquisitors, warpriests etc.
House Thrune: 30 Personal Guard (Mostly Fighter 3, with a handful of exceptions, such as Nox)
LIBERATION POINTS:
Liberation points represent the goodwill, morale and support of the citizens of Kintargo, as well as the strength and organization of the rebels. Liberation points are earned as the PCs aid the people of Kintargo, recruit allies and gain assets for the rebellion to use against Thrune. Liberation points are lost if the PCs commit atrocities, or their allies, assets or even good name are successfully attacked by Thrune.
Key allies such as Rexus, Laria, Octavio and such grant Liberation points when they are recruited – typically between 1 and 3, depending on the influence and capability of the individual. Gaining safehouses, recruiting combatants or simply earning the good will of the citizens such as by defeating threats to the city all earn a couple of points.
By the beginning of Book 4, the PCs should have accrued between 10 and 40 Liberation points, depending on their actions.
REPRISALS:
Reprisals: Whenever Barzillai is below 75 Authority, he will authorise a Reprisal once per week. Whenever he is below 50 Authority, he will authorise a Reprisal once per Day. These increase in Song of Silver. All reprisals should be run and resolved on camera by the PCs, by preference.
[01-10] Abduction (+2 Authority): Barzillai has a minor NPC suspected of being sympathetic to the rebellion abducted and tortured. They’ll be known to the PCs, but not be someone of significance within the rebellion. They are imprisoned and interrogated for 1 week, after which they are executed as traitors (reducing the population by 1) and Barzillai will gain 2 Authority Points. If they are rescued before then, their life is saved and Barzillai gains no Authority points.
[11-15] Arson (+1d4 Authority): Thrune agents target the homes or businesses of people suspected of being rebel sympathisers, damaging several buildings and burning one to the ground, killing 3d6 people. If the PCs are able to intervene and save at least some of the would-be victims, Barzillai gains only half the Authority Points. If the PCs save at least half of the victims, Barzillai gains no Authority Points.
[16-20] Assassination Attempt (+4 Authority): Barzillai organizes for an assassin to come after the PCs – or at least someone matching the best description he has of the rebel leaders. Alternatively, they may go after an important NPC ally. The assassin should be of a CR 2 higher than the average PC level, and be either a devil or mortal – either a Thrune agent or an independent sword-for-hire. If the assassin kills the target, Barzillai gains 4 Authority; If the Assassin only brings the target to 0 or fewer hp, but fails to kill them, Barzillai gains 2 Authority points; If the assassin is stopped or defeated, Barzillai gains no Authority points.
[21-25] Counterstrike (+1 Authority): If Barzillai’s Authority point total is less than 30, treat this result as No Reprisal. Barzillai orders a detachment of crack troops to form a taskforce dedicated to hunting down rebels, who vigilantly keep watch for rebel activity and leap on any such incident with zeal. The next time the PCs engage in any form of mission or rebel action, add a sizeable task force of soldiers who will rush to the scene as reinforcements – these reinforcements should form either a single APL +3 encounter, or two APL+1 encounters. If the PCs defeat the taskforce, Barzillai gains no Authority. If the taskforce defeat the PCs, or the PCs retreat or flee, Barzillai gains 1 Authority point.
[26-35] Defamation (+1d4 Authority): Agents of Thrune commit an atrocity, such as the vandalism of a home, the grisly murder of a commoner, or the robbery of a shop. They then plant evidence to frame the Silver Ravens.
[36-40] Devils on the Streets (+2d4 Authority): Barzillai’s Authority Point total is lower than 50, treat this result as no reprisal. A number of devils make a public attack on a group of suspected Silver Raven sympathizers. Reduce Kintargo’s population by 2d6.
[41-45] Diabolic Infiltration (-1d4 Liberation): Barzillai sends an infernal agent, either in disguise or possessing a would-be rebel, to infiltrate the ranks of the rebellion and sabotage it from within. The agent will attempt to undermine the rebellion as long as possible, causing it to lose 1d4 Liberation points per week until discovered. The agent should be challenging for the PCs to expose and defeat, but as they must act to sabotage the Silver Ravens, must leave some evidence of their activity.
[46-50] Dragon Strike (+2d6 Authority): Prioer to Book 4, treat this as Devils on the Streets. If Rivozair has been defeated, treat this result as No Reprisal. Thrune allows the blue dragon Rivozair to lash out at a building suspected of housing numerous Silver Raven sympathizers. Reduce Kintargo’s population by 3d6+12.
[51-60] Increased Patrols (+2 Authority): If Barzillai’s Authority Point total is lower than 50, treat this result as No Reprisal. Thrune increases the presence of his troops on the streets of Kintargo. This results in no loss of life but helps maintain Thrune’s authority.
[61-65] Inquisition! (+5 Authority) If Barzillai’s Authority Point total is lower than 40, treat this result as No Reprisal. Thrune sends agents of the church of Asmodeus into the streets.
[66-70] Invasion! (+2 Authority) Barzillai lures (by one means or another) a dangerous monster to invade Kintargo. The monster will run rampant through the more rebellious sections of the city, killing 2d6+6 citizens before being defeated or chased out by Barzillai’s forces – gaining him 2 Authority points. If the PCs defeat it, they negate this Authority gain.
[71-80] No Reprisal (-1d6 Authority): Be it because of diminished resources, dissension in the ranks, or just poor luck on Thrune’s behalf, a scheduled reprisal fails to manifest, resulting in a slight reduction to Barzillai’s authority over the city.
[81-85] Public Excruciation (+1d6 Authority): If Barzillai’s Authority Point total is lower than 25, treat this result as no reprisal. Barzillai doghouses suspected rebel sympathizers on trumped-up charges. Reduce Kintargo’s population by 3d6. If the PCs rescue some of the victims, halve this Authority gain. If they rescue all of them, Barzillai gains no Authority points.
[86-90] Snitch (-1 Liberation): Barzillai bribes or otherwise coerces one of the rebellion to confess and turn into an informant. Each week, the rebellion will lose 1 point of Liberation due to Barzillai acting on the supplied information. The Snitch will be a low level NPC, and can be exposed with modest social skills.
[91-95] Supernatural Weather (+2 Authority): If the PCs secure the orb of storms for themselves, treat this result as no reprisal. Using the orb of storms kept in the temple vault (area E31), Barzillai causes unseasonable storms to wrack the city. For the remainder of this day any outdoor activity is virtually impossible for most citizens and the rebellion grinds to a halt until the weather abates. Similarly, the sewers are flooded with stormwater and impossible to navigate. This reprisal can occur only once per day; reroll this result if it comes up more frequently.
[96-100] Violent Crime Spree (+2 Authority): Barzillai has a number of violent criminals released back into the city, complete with suggestions that they return to their murderous behaviour. They murder 2d6 citizens and rob, assault and brutalize many others before being rounded up by the dottari. If the PCs twart them, Barzillai gains no Authority Points.
SONG OF SILVER:
In Book 4, Barzillai gains 1d6 Authority per day, instead of per week. Additionally, he will authorise as many reprisals as he is capable of, as written in the adventure path instalment.
Given that the PCs will have been undermining his Authority from the start of the campaign, the “Previous Victories” modifiers to his Authority points do not apply. Instead, carry over whatever Barzillai’s total Authority Points were from Book 3, and when open revolt breaks out at the start of Book 4, subtract an amount from his Authority Points equal to the PCs accrued Liberation Points.
I wouldn't normally start an entirely new thread, but I'm shopping for ideas on how to handle Seven Days to the Grave when the only PC divine caster is an inquisitor, who doesn't get remove disease until 7th level - the end of the chapter.
Background: I ran the original Curse of the Crimson Throne campaign largely as-published, and without a 9th level divine caster. It wasn't a problem, so I didn't see any issue with doing so again in Pathfinder when none of my players wanted to play such a character. What I hadn't realised until very recently, was the enormous extent by which Pathfinder has escalated the danger Seven Days presents.
Original Version: Blood Veil was a DC 16 Fortitude save, had an onset of 1 day, and dealt 1d3 Con and 1d3 Cha damage per day. It had a cure of 1 save, as all diseases had a cure of 1 save. This was still expected to kill around 30% of the city's population if the PCs didn't stop it, and good justification was given for it.
Casting remove disease automatically removed the disease from a patient, but was in limited supply, and thus while it was a drain on PC resources to need scrolls, potions or wands of it, it kept them in the fight so to speak.
Using the Heal skill could allow a trained PC or NPC to replace the patient's saving throw with their Heal check result. This meant that anyone with a Heal of +6 or more could take-10 and see a patient successfully throw off the disease. It is also the very premise of why the Hospice is accepted as the most viable means of treating the sick: In 3.5 it was.
Pathfinder Version: First, Blood Veil doesn't have a cure listed, which is (hopefully) simply an oversight. If one looks at diseases with similar saves, the 'norm' is two consecutive saves, which immediately makes surviving the disease four times as hard (no, not twice). The ability score damage also increased from d3s to d4s - a roughly 25% increase, on average. Ouch.
Next, in Pathfinder remove disease doesn't always work. It is now a caster level check against the disease's save DC - 16 in this case. That means scrolls, potions, wands and the PCs if/when they first get the spell have a 50/50 chance of it working per casting. So, on average, need to burn twice as many resources for the same results. Double ouch (literally).
Lastly, in Pathfinder Heal no longer can be used to replace the patient's Fort save, but instead simply gives a +4. So rather than "I have some ranks in Heal and stay with the young girl to tend her illness... and save her life!" it is "I spend all night tending the girl, who is still almost certainly going to die right here in front of me". This also makes the hospice much less of a sure thing, and so rather than its failure rate being suspicious*, it is instead perfectly understandable to any player who understands how the mechanics work.
*The double-whammy here being that the only hook to send the PCs into the Hospice is them being suspicious of its failure rate. The hooks from the original module (i.e. the Direption) were removed.
So.... my five PCs are basically a mix of martial and arcane casters, plus an inquisitor. I'm open to suggestions for means of making this adventure path feasible without a full divine caster, and without simply pulling a sleight of hand on systems and running with 3.5 mechanics for the plague (though that option still has a spot on my list).
I haven't seen a thread about this one... and figured I'd post some thoughts on it so far (about to hit the final fight), with spoiler tags as appropriate.
In Short: The early section is great. The later section feels rushed and (disappointingly) pulls a switcheroo on theme.
Suggesting a game that my wife & I have tag-teamed up to 75 hours of play time (and had over 10 years of development) feels rushed might sound strange, but 60+ hours of that was spent in Lucis, cruisin' with the bros, hunting monsters, racing chocobos and, yes, fishing.
The early section of the game has a strong and frequently reinforced theme of unity, brotherhood and "together we shall triumph". It also features constant banter (and bad puns) between the four characters, establishing them and their relations to each other, while you go through the immense amount of available content and activities. There are some patches of weirdness (Gladdy leaving your party to "do stuff for a bit" with no explanation of what and why ever coming up again in the game), but on the whole it is excellent and will keep you entertained for a very, very long time.
Exposition on the main plot comes at a comfortable pace that neither takes too much of a back seat, nor hijacks control of the game to run you down the railroad tracks.
If the rest of the game maintained this theme of brotherhood and unity, then I would heartily recommend the game.
And then you leave Lucis (not really a spoiler; it's what you were trying to do in the opening scenes), and continue with the main story. And quickly and suddenly switches theme and tone to "Noctis' sacrifice for the greater good" and "Dark and Foreboding".
And you get a time-travelling dog, so you can go back in time to go back and play more of the band-of-bros game. But seriously, it's a dog that can inexplicably move through time and space at will. No, I haven't seen any explanation as to why.
From here on, you're on railroad tracks as the game rushes you through a series of somewhat arbitrary and inexplicable plot points to dump you into a frustratingly long and unnecessary dungeon, and then the final sequence. Most of which is arbitrary, brutal and riddled with plot holes even Prompto could drive the Regalia through.
As someone who was enjoying the game and gradual build up, having the sudden shift to be a rushed (and at times confusing) tour of misery was bitterly disappointing.
Spoiler:
Some key points:
The Leap-Frog in Time: At the end of the dungeon-from-hell, and just before the last fight sequence, the game leaps forward 10 years in time. Ten years. All of which was spent in darkness (though there are still plants), and most of the world's population is dead. Yay?
This is arbitrary and largely pointless, and the game gives a bit of exposition on what everyone is currently up to, and lets you prepare before you go on to the last fight... or back in time via your magical dog. It also switches Noctis' model to an 'older' Caucasian form... which looks nothing like his younger (and decidedly Japanese) version. Lunafreya has model disparity issues with the anime too, but that's another issue
Blinding Ignis: So shortly after leaving Lucis, Ignis gets blinded. Permanently. The fact that this is happens (and leads to some incredibly frustrating gameplay) is irritating, and the fact that it happens entirely off camera is unnecessary and arbitrary. You know those abilities you leveled up of his? Gone; His abilities are changed (and generally crap). Indeed, for a large portion of the remaining game the various recipes and ingredients you've collected for awesome buffs... aren't available, either because he's blind and can't cook, or he isn't with you.
Killing Lunafreya: So Lunafreya is Noctis' childhood friend and now fiance' and the Oracle (never properly explained) who can heal people of the Starscourge (implied that she draws in the sickness out of people and into herself). Cool. She is also awakening the six gods so that Noctis can receive their blessing and fulfil his destiny to become the King of Light etc etc.
Cool.
So we finally get Noctis to be in the same place as her, share a nod, and go off to face Leviathan (God number 3). And then she gets murdered (potion, anyone?). Noctis literally didn't get to say one word in person, and she becomes a woman-in-the-refrigerator to motivate him to killing the BBEG. We had received some exposition on who she was via various flashbacks, but ultimately there was a character there we should have seen more of... but instead she dies the moment we meet her, and before her supposed role in the plot is complete.
Dead Gods: There are six gods in this world, and Noctis is supposed to get the blessings of each. Enigmatic, but sure. Except the empire is also killing them... which doesn't appear in any way to impede Noctis' ability to summon them to smash his foes. Weird... but okay, whatever. The gods are also not all friendly: Leviathan in fact threatens to kill every last human she can reach if Noctis can't beat her. Charming.
Titan (god 1), you fight a bit and flee. And then he dies off camera.
Ramuh (god 2), you never see in person, but get the blessing of by a treasure-hunt quest. And then he dies off camera.
Leviathan (god 3), you go through an epic boss fight with and kill yourself.
Shiva (god 4), gets killed off camera by the empire before you get anywhere near her. But also doesn't. And you get her blessing by her corpse... okay?
Bahamut (god 5)... lurks out in space and is enigmatic as hell. So who knows?
Ifrit (god 6) is the penultimate boss and a bad, bad dude. Who you never see until the end sequence, and is not the final battle... Ifrit's minion is. Sense? None.
Noctis Must Die: So rather than a theme of unity, the end sequence changes to the theme of martyrdom. Sorry, let me correct: Arbitrary martyrdom.
Noctis must defeat the BBEG and restore light to the world (noting the game had it arbitrarily be in darkness for ten years), but doing so will cost Noctis his life. Because.
But what about your buddies? Well, apparently they're not actually important enough to even warrant a bit of a cutscene or exposition on what happened to them after the game ends. Seriously? I just spent 60+ hours with Prompto, Gladio and Ignis, I want to know what happened to these guys.
Locked Content: A chunk of the game is locked until you finish the main plot, wherein you go back in time and can play more of the game... after it has thoroughly beaten any desire to do so out of you.
This was horrible in FF13, and is even worse in FFXV. You're done. The game has ended. There is no motivation to go and do extra dungeons because it doesn't progress towards anything. Game Over man, Game Over.
I'm aware they got antsy about people playing their optional content to the point of trivialising the main plot bosses in FFX (I mugged the endboss to death in one hit), but that is a problem with having really bad boss design and going overboard on what the optional content can give, not an issue with having optional content at all. FF7 and FF8 didn't have this issue, as Sephiroth and Ultimecia were sufficiently uber that even completionists still had a bit of challenge at the end, while still feeling that all that effort was worthwhile.
The Big Bad: So the big bad evil guy is Ardyn, formerly the one chosen by the Crystal (minimal exposition in game on that either) to fight the first Starscourge, which Ifrit made because he's a jerk. Okay. Ardyn instead decided to heal people by drawing the demons/plague into himself to save thousands of lives... a bit like Lunafreya does.
Okay.
But apparently, the gods (who like to be enigmatic and give very little instruction/advice) didn't like this and made someone else king instead. And Ardyn was made into an immortal by the demons inside him (but Lunafreya and the other oracles were not?). And now Ardyn serves Ifrit (he of daemonmakingness)... but is the final boss of the game.
And his motivation is that he wants the world to fall to darkness and Noctis to become the "King of Light" so he can kill you and feel better about himself?
Square Enix, you are strange.
In Summary: Square-Enix couldn't seem to make up their mind about what kind of game they wanted to make, and so released something that was two different concepts stapled together.... and it doesn't work that well.
A game about unity, brotherhood and four friends saving the world would have worked.
A game about grimdark self-sacrifice would have worked.
A game that is 75% one, 25% the other will please very few people.
SPOILER WARNING: There are spoilers. Lots of them.
Foreword: This is not a blow-by-blow account of our run-through of the adventure path, and instead a combination of review, experiences in play and from that recommendations for others (and myself, if I run it again, which I may well do).
I should also go on to say that, although I may at times be a bit critical of some of the content of the published modules, this isn't intended as a mud-slinging exercise - on the whole I love the Pathfinder Adventure Paths and recognize that in the real world of professional publishing there are such things as time, budget and page limits, which all serve as constraints, especially for ambitious projects. Indeed, the fact that the Council of Thieves inspired me to write over 200 pages of campaign notes, and this very (very) extensive dissertation speaks more of how much I loved the thing than the fact that I may pick fault from time to time.
For the sake of legibility, I'll be making heavy use of both formatting tools and spoiler tags to try and make this a little more manageable, as it is freaking huge....
But, without further ado, let's go on to the Council of Thieves.
IN SUMMARY: So is it any good? In short: Yes. Very. But some assembly is required.
A slightly longer (and hopefully useful) explanation is that your mileage may vary with the Council of Thieves, as the adventure path hangs its hat on the PCs being heroic. If you have heroic PCs, this adventure path is excellent. If your PCs are particularly craven or mercenary... honestly you might want to consider running something else.
1) CRITICISMS
The Council of Thieves is an extremely ambitious project, but also one that has been created under duress - office relocations, release of Pathfinder as a system and so on - and the result I consider both daringly brilliant... and rather flawed. Running the campaign as-published can work, depending on your group, but to really bring this adventure home requires a fair amount of work on the part of the GM, though I personally feel this AP is worth it.
Narrative Pacing and Sequence:
The intent of the adventure path is to have two antagonists, with Sivanshin's shadow curse being a primary motivator for the PCs to take action and the first target, while the second and initially unknown antagonist, Eccardian, works behind the scenes to perpetrate an even greater evil the heroes must face. Staged antagonists are fairly classic, and as such the intent is understandable, however the adventure path also tries to have the party fight them in parallel, weaving back and forth between the two opposed groups and facing the antagonists at the end of books 5 and 6, respectively. This is actually much harder to pull off than the more traditional sequential method, and requires a much tighter control of plot hooks and reveals than the Council of Thieves manages, unfortunately.
In essence, the adventure path feels like the books are "out of sequence", which is a common comment from GMs and players, (though I would strongly dispute the common suggestion that Book 4 "The Infernal Syndrome", is actually best served being played last, as while it is dramatic, narratively Liebdaga is not that important). The crux of the issue is that Book 3 "What Lies in Dust" is entirely focused on leading the heroes toward Sivanshin and ending the shadow curse (Plot A), but the Adventure Path doesn't do so until Book 5 "Mother of Flies", whereas Book 4 "The Infernal Syndrome" is not only lodged in-between, but is entirely focused on the mayhem being caused by the Drovenges (Plot B), which narratively leads to the culmination of their scheme in Book 6 "Twice-Damned Prince".
In essence, Books 4 and 5 are narratively in the "wrong order", and force players to be "jump tracks" back and forth between plotlines and villains, rather than letting them follow a train of investigation through to its natural conclusion before continuing on to the second.
Narrative Inconsistency:
Trying to maintain narrative consistency throughout six books, with each written by a separate author is difficult to pull off, and unfortunately, the Council of Thieves struggles somewhat in this regard. There are actually quite a number of shifts in narrative, backstory (retcons) or simple inconsistencies in style and tone throughout the books, but I'll try and give the primary ones.
Adventure Background: The adventure summary is detailed in Book 1 [3 pages] detailing the events instigating the adventure path as a whole. Books 3 through 6 then spend a page each on what is essentially a recap of the adventure background in Book 1, except where it contradicts the original, changing the sequence of events, whether Eccardian's mother was killed by Vassindio (Books 1 & 6) or died in childbirth (Book 5), and why, and so on. On the most basic level, I personally found having almost a page dedicated to re-iterating the same background information to be a questionable use of page count - I still had Book 1 after all - but the fact that each retelling contradicts the previous, without any obvious narrative purpose to the retcons, made the Adventure Summary do more harm than good.
The Children of Westcrown: The premise set up in Book 1 is that the PCs join the Children of Westcrown, and the book goes on to have a segment where the PCs get to both name the organization and choose a uniform by which to conceal their individual identity and yet be recognizable as members of the team. In essence, the PCs are The Avengers, Arael is Nick Fury, Janiven is Maria Hill (or Black Widow) and the other NPC members of the group are the Agents of Shield - the PCs are the costumed superheroes with a support team, and because they have secret identities, all fame and recognition go to the team, not the individuals. This is a clever design choice as it allows the players to maintain their accumulated Fame Points even in the event of a TPK and new PC party.
This premise is then largely forgotten in subsequent books, with PC's recognized on-sight, or going to the Children of Westcrown in later books to meet a brand new character as "a tried and true member of the organization". Ultimately, you and your players need to decide whether your PCs have secret identities, and either work that into the subsequent books, or adjust the premise from the onset.
Council of Thieves: Unfortunately, the Adventure Path is not only a bit inconsistent with exactly who the heroes of the story are, but they're very inconsistent with who the villains are. In Book 1 there is not only an extensive write-up of who the Council of Thieves are, but an excellent article on Westcrown in the back, which details them even further: They started as a collective of criminal gangs, but (centuries ago) backed out of violent and petty crime and focused on smuggling, loan sharking etc and faded from the public eye and into legend. Blatant crimes exist, but they're conducted through puppet gangs outside of the city, while the Council themselves are now long-established among the nobility of the city.
In essence, they're similar to Keyser Soze from The Usual Suspects: Most consider them little more than a spook story that criminals tell their kids at night, "Rat on your dad, and the Council of Thieves will get you", while in reality they're behind many of the crimes that go on in the city, it's just that the crooks low enough on the totem pole to get busted from time to time don't know they work for the Council of Thieves. This is a premise I and my players bought into, because it's excellent.
And yet, as the adventure path progresses into it's second half, you face veritable armies of Council cutpurses and thieves, and eventually enter a Council Guildhouse... which is a stock fantasy "Thieves' Guild", complete with deathtrap gauntlets for culling homeless initiates seeking to join and become thieves, impractical entrances, bizarre passwords/codes, and of course, a great treasury of stolen valuables. It's "classic", but it's also not remotely in keeping with the premise for what the Council of Thieves is, as set forward in Bastards of Erebus.
Quantum Indeterminate Villainy:
There are two parts to this, which essentially pose the following questions:
Who are Eccardian Drovenge and Ilnerik Sivanshin?
Where are Eccardian and Chammady?
Regarding the first; There are pages of adventure background which detail and characterize Sidonai Drovenge (not part of the AP) and his father Vassindio (only present as a corpse in book 5), but despite often describing what the antagonists have achieved, nowhere does Eccardian actually get a write-up explaining who he is, and for that matter, neither does Ilnerik Sivanshin in his current, vampiric, form. They are both blank-slate characters who make no virtually appearance within the adventure path until the very encounter in which you fight them, which, while it keeps them alive until their final fight, it makes it reduces both the drama and player satisfaction involved. The Carrion Crown AP had this same issue (albeit even more so), which was actually acknowledged in Book 6 as being a regrettable design choice. However, you as the GM can fix this.
Regarding the second: For most of the adventure path the location of it's primary antagonists is left unknown, even when the PCs are told their names early in Infernal Syndrome and their role in many events - the GM is simply not given any information of where they are nor who they work with. For Eccardian this is fair as he's taken precautions against divinations, but Chammady hasn't (according to Twice-Damned Prince. Indeed, they have virtually no named accomplices, instead the AP favours using armies of nameless and faceless (and yet numbering among the highest level NPCs in the city) minions to complete incredible feats in the entirely in the background, and without giving the GM any material as to how.
The vagueness and lack of detail of the antagonists, their forces and their actions make it a lot harder to sell the PCs on the villains than it should be, and it is the villains that make or break a story.
Sidonai - Genius or Madman?:
A question that is raised quite frequently is: "Why did Sidonai try to father a tiefling?"
The core of this question comes from the fact that, in Cheliax, tieflings are extremely prejudiced against, and the very appendix story written along with the adventure paths actually serves to emphasize how unlikely Sidonai's tactic is to succeed. Narratively having Eccardian suffer persecution his whole life due to his heritage to drive him to be the villain he is makes sense, but the conceit that Sidonai would actually attempt the bargain runs counter to common sense for a Chelaxian citizen.
The argument could be that a son of an archdevil would be powerful enough for Thrune to fear, but the half-fiends of the appendix-story weren't saved by their prowess, they were damned by it, suggesting a mammon-spawned child politically handicapped, rather than empowered.
Book 6 elaborates on Mammon's motivations, but Sidonai's remain strange, and requiring a fair degree of suspension of disbelief to "just go with it", when they are eventually revealed to the PCs.
Westcrown - City of Ambiguity:
Westcrown is a metropolis of some 114,000 souls, with large portions of the city mostly or partly abandoned (especially in Parego Dospera), indicating a lower-than normal population density, and around 5-6 square miles of city, and ten to twenty thousand buildings.
Not that the map will tell you this, because it is largely abstracted, lacking a scale of any kind (possibly its greatest sin) and for the most part doesn't even demark where the Rego (AKA district) boundaries are. Instead it largely serves as a rough 'guide' to the layout of the city, with locations created on the fly within each module... which works after a fashion, but given the entire adventure path is set within the walls, it makes it hard to sell to PCs as a home if there's so little detail (e.g. only two named taverns). I had hoped that subsequent books in the AP would add to the initial gazetteer published in book 1, but sadly, they do not, and bringing the city to life is entirely the purview of the GM.
NOTE: There are reasons why the map looks the way it does, and they are actually fairly good reasons (budget is a thing in professional publication). But the point is not why the map is rather abstract and vague, but the fact that it is. Drawing your own map is an option... but it's a ton of work. Trust me.
The second part to this is how the city gets used; For example, Rego Cader is great, bringing to mind visions of Escape from New York and similar prison-city concepts. In Book 1 it is highlighted that crossing the wall into the anarchistic ruins is a big deal - but subsequent books get somewhat casual with placing things in there, such as the Devildrome (awesome devil-summoning gladiatorial arena) which has nobles and similar moneyed audiences wandering in to Rego Cader to gamble on matches (whereas it really should have been in Crua), and little by little the original vibe of the district is lost. Other bits of strangeness include; relocating Walcourt from Rego Crua to Parego Regicona (book 1 vs. 5); the fact that the Mhartis and Ciucci estates are next to Aberian's Folly, despite the fact that Aberian's Folly cannot be the ancestral Arvanxi estate as it was formerly (20 years ago) the home of the previous Mayor; and the fact that nowhere in the modules does it ever raise the question of any difficulty getting to and from the (walled and gated) island... there are others, but I'll stop there.
In summary, Westcrown has a fantastic vibe, but suffers from an intense lack of information.
Fame and Consequence:
The concept of the PCs earning Fame points over the course of the adventure path, and having them as a currency to achieve great feats in Book 6 and in the end determine the fate of Westcrown... is awesome almost beyond words. It is also exceptionally hard to implement, and unfortunately I have a few criticisms about how it is done, but I'll focus on just the main two for now:
First off: Only the highest reward feels like victory. Hitting 89 or less sees the city go under martial law and its spirit crushed out of it, and hitting 110 or less has the PCs seen as being basically nobodies who happened to be involved but not considered instrumental to anything, and the city goes back to "The Way It Was". Only by hitting 111 are the PCs acknowledged as being heroes and does Westcrown actually get any better. That's harsh. Damn harsh. I know if I went through the 1-2 years it typically takes to play through and wound up with a 110-or-under result, it would be a be a very bitter tasting victory indeed.
Secondly: The method of scoring for the fate of Westcrown is really wonky, and while hitting the best result is certainly possible, it demands something very specific:
The PCs have at least one high charisma character (e.g. Sorcerer)
The PCs earn every fame point available in Books 1-5 (32)
The PCs spend no fame points in Book 6
The PCs do all content in Book 6 for maximum Popularity gain (without spending Fame).
Either: There are a lot of PCs for more assists; The PC making the check have the Leadership feat; The PC making the check have a Circlet of Persuasion.
To put things in perspective, the best result is to enter with 32 Fame (+32), to spend none and thus have 32 unspent Fame at the end (+32), earn the entire 23 Popularity available (+23), for a total of +85, requiring a further +15 to come from assists (+2 per PC), Charisma, Leadership and/or Circlet of Persuasion to have a mere 50% chance of getting the best result at the end. If you're playing the pregens with their gear and feats - it's not happening. If you spend Fame to consolidate your alliance with the nobles or hellknights you're almost guaranteed to miss out on the best ending, despite this being completely counterintuitive.
In terms of "Maximum Achievable Result", noting this basically involves knowing the system and designing specifically for the result: Human Sorcerer with starting Charisma 18 + 2 racial + 2 from levels + 6 from headband and +2 from tomes for a total of Cha 30 (+10), then add Leadership (+4), Circlet of Persuasion (+3), 5 other PCs assisting (+10), 32 Fame (+32), 0 Fame Spent (+32), All objectives hit for 23 Popularity (+23) = +114.
Coupled with the rather harsh outcome from the lower results, the scoring methodology misses the mark by a significant margin, in my opinion. I wound up creating an alternate system that worked well in my game, and have listed it in the "Heroism, Fame and Consequence" section, in case it's of use to anyone else.
2) COMPLIMENTS
Despite the above criticisms, this adventure path has a lot going for it, and is, in my opinion, worth the extra effort needed to really bring the city and it's plight to life - so much so I've pencilled in running it again with a different group when I get the chance. The campaign has it's highlights, but the concept of gathering Fame (AKA Influence) through your deeds over the course of the campaign until you can finally use that currency to shape the fate of Westcrown? Epic.
If I'm brief in this section, it's mainly because this post is already somewhat epic, and I've tried to cover the highlights in the individual book sections later.
My hat comes off to the Paizo team for this one.
Westcrown - A Dying Home:
Westcrown is a gorgeous setting; urban decay, lost glory, dead gods, failed prophecy and mysterious curses. More than that, it is the home for both the PCs are the entire adventure path, allowing a degree of investment that many adventure paths discourage as the PCs are fighting for their homes, families and future.
It feels like the unholy combination of Florence, Gotham and Escape from New York, and is a giant canvas upon which for the PCs to paint their heroic deeds.
I love the damn(ed) place, and hopefully by the end of the adventure path, you will too.
Get Your Avengers On:
Masked vigilantes with secret identities, a hidden lair and a potion/gadget man gearing them up for missions?
Oh hell yes.
More seriously, my earlier analogue to the Avengers is an apt one - Bastards of Erebus leans heavily towards the comic book superhero genre in feel, and it is something that works beautifully within the adventure path as a whole. If you can sell your players on this, it is absolutely worth it.
More Than Heroes, More Than an Adventure:
Council of Thieves isn't about just the PCs, nor just defeating some Big Bad. It's about the future of the city, it's about PCs who give a damn about their homes and it's about making a stand in Westcrown's darkest chapter and forging a better world.
If you have players who long for this kind of heroic tale, then the Council of Thieves' can deliver, and do so in spades.
If you have players who really, really want to be murderhobos... then there are more suitable APs out there.
3) LESSONS LEARNED & RECOMMENDATIONS
Having GM'd the Council of Thieves, I learned a lot about it's strengths & weaknesses, as well as those of my own fumbling attempts to add and amend content as we went. Rather than give a blow-by-blow accounting, I figured I'd try to distill it into something more usable... And yes, there is a certain irony in using "distill" given the size of this beast.
I'll cover module-specific recommendations within the individual sections, however there are some more general or "foundation work" things that I'd strongly suggest a prospective GM tackle before attempting to start the AP.
Suggestions About PCs:
Charisma matters.
While your PCs need to be able to fight, they also need to be able to inspire others and be the shining champions of the city (and at one point, actors). This is generally easier all around if most of them didn't dump their Cha as low as possible.
In order to be fairly even-handed with the PCs and avoid favouring Cha-based spellcasters, I'd recommend the following:
Minimum Charisma 10 for any PC
No ability score above 18 at character creation (including racial adjustments)
20 point buy (or 25 if you're game, just not 15 point buy as it penalizes most martial classes too much to add the min Cha requirement)
To McGuffin or Not to McGuffin:
One of the premises with this adventure path is the somewhat nebulous abilities and properties of the Aohl artefact and its two component halves, the Totemrix and Morrowfall. The former is keyed to a dead demon lord of shadow (Hint: Nocticula ate him) which turned Sivanshin into a vampire, and the latter to a dead or forgotten sun god which drove Bisby insane.
The published effects of these two artefacts don't actually line up with their narrative ability - prior to picking it up, Morrowfall radiates light that weakens vampires and fires beams of sunlight at will that destroy or injure them... but once collected turns into a six-pack of a Spell-in-a-Can item, with a few castings per day of some spells and constant daylight (which doesn't bother vampires at all). Totemrix only functions as a McGuffin to allow Sivanshin to create the shadow curse.
Even with the oddity aside, I found the use of the artefacts, as well as the recovery of the Morrowfall as the climax of What Lies in Dust to be a rather cumbersome and ultimately not overly satisfying, and thus scrapped them both. But that's me personally. I'd suggest one of the following two approaches;
OPTION 1: REDESIGN:Revise the function of the two artefacts to make their abilities slightly more in light with what they're intended to do, as well as make Sivanshin a tad more interesting.
Totemrix [Neck slot]: The bearer of this artefact is permanently clad in shadows, drawn from the plane of shadow itself, and as such is immune to all light based effects (including the effect of sunlight on vampires), and capable of casting darkness at-will, and step between shadows as if with dimension door as a move action, 5 times per day. The artefact is, however, cursed, once donned, the amulet cannot be removed except with remove curse and a caster level check against DC30, and each day at dusk will cause 1d4 points of Constitution drain (Fort DC25 negates) which cannot be regained while the artefact is worn, until the target is slain, immediately after which they rise as a vampire (mastermind), their alignment changing to Evil, though they retain all class levels and abilities. A vampire wearing this artefact can use their Children of the Night ability to summon horrific creatures from the shadow plane, which remain until dismissed or killed - creatures so summoned are typically native to the shadow plane, or have the Shadow Creature or Nightmare Creature templates, and the vampire can summon a number of hit dice of such creatures equal to half their own HD per use of Children of the Night. Finally, any vampires or vampire spawn they create, they can both see through their eyes (as the Mastermind ability), and briefly possess their minions bodies to speak through them, though they cannot employ their own spells or abilities through their minions, merely communicate.
Morrowfall [Neck Slot]: The wearer of this amulet is bathed in radiant light - as long as the amulet is exposed (i.e. not hidden under clothes) it radiates constant daylight as per the spell, however this light is particularly potent and deals 2d6 light damage per round to all undead, as well as affecting them as if with consecrate. Additionally, they are immune to negative energy effects, as if under death ward. Three times per day, the bearer can focus the power of Morrowfall to produce one of two effects: They can fire a beam of energy, as if casting a maximized searing light at CL20th; or they can cause the Morrowfall to radiate 60ft radius of sunlight (bright illumination for another 60ft, dim for 60ft beyond) for a duration of Concentration, up to a maximum of 10 rounds. Despite the incredible benefits of Morrowfall it is still a cursed artefact and cannot be willingly removed without a remove curse and DC30 caster level check, and each day at dawn it attempts to impart a mania (DC20 Will save negates) to find the Totemrix and complete the Aohl, and if the wearer already has the mania, it inflicts 1 point of Wisdom drain on a failed Will save, which cannot be regained while the artefact is worn.
OPTION 2 - REMOVE & REPLACE: As an alternative to redesigning the artefacts to be more... well... interesting, the option I personally chose was simply to remove them altogether. I instead had Sivanshin and Bisby recover more than just one artefact, but dozens of rubbings of ancient murals and texts, artefacts and ancient silver-foil scrolls from the empire of Shadows that once ruled within Mwangi - vampiric priest-kings of Vyriavaxus whose power and civilization collapsed with the death of their patron at Nocticula's hands. Bisby wanted to publicize the findings immediately in order to impress locals and Lodge alike - enough to compensate for the tragic loss of the vast majority of the expedition - whereas the more cautious Sivanshin wanted time to study their findings before going public, despite the risk of the Amber Privateers being shut down.
While Bisby politicked and stalled in an ever more desperate fashion, Sivanshin studied dark and forbidden lore, tension between them quickly rose, until it came to blows in the depths of Delvehaven as Bisby murdered Sivanshin with the very artefacts he was studying, dumped Sivanshin's body into the sewers, and stole an armful of the remaining artefacts and papers to put on display. Unwittingly, Bisby had completed the ritual Sivanshin had dared not complete - the transformation into a shadow-blessed Vampire; capable of manifesting in physical form even in direct sunlight or running water while his soul remained trapped within the phylactery-blade that lay in the Amber Arca. Weeks later, Sivanshin awoke in the depths of the harbour, and after swimming to the surface found the city engulfed in civil war, and the sun burning harshly (but not lethally) on his skin. Climbing aboard a fleeing ship, he escaped the city to Nidal, where he gained his strength and came to grips with his new nature.
Mechanically:
Sivanshin lacks any of the normal weaknesses of vampires, though his spawn do not.
Sivanshin and vampires he creates are capable of summoning and controlling shadow beasts, as per Totemrix
Sivanshin is capable of casting shadow walk as a spell-like ability (CL20) three times per day.
If his phylactery is ever destroyed, he and his spawn lose the above benefits, except that he still controls any shadow beasts summoned, but cannot summon any more.
Bisby did not escape consequences of his deeds either. Although his displays and findings won him back the fame and adulation he craved, his conscience gnawed at him - he stood alone in the limelight, while his old friends and comrades lay dead in the Mwangi jungle, or rotting in the sewers by his own hand. Tormented by guilt and grief, and unwilling to face the return of the God of Man with so much blood on his hands, he locked himself in the Amber Arca and hung himself on the even of Aroden's prophesised return.
Narrative Re-Sequencing:
Run Mother of Flies before Infernal Syndrome.
The above takes a little work, but less than you would expect, all things considered. I covered most of the reasoning why in the Criticisms section, but to summarize again: Books 1-3 are entirely about gearing up to solve and end the shadow curse and so lead naturally towards Mother of Flies, which is (mostly) about ending the shadow curse. Infernal Syndrome is a complete change in gears that throws the PCs against the Council of Thieves directly, and given the anarchy caused within the book actually plays beautifully as a lead in to book 6.
Trust me: It'll fix a lot of problems in the later in the AP.
Known Your Villains:
The published adventure path will not tell you who Eccardian or Sivanshin are, gives only a brief view at Chammady (combined, they have less detail than Cinnabar, a one-time enemy from History of Ashes), and no detail at all on exactly how their organization looks.
Drawing another comparison to Curse of the Crimson Throne, one of the things that made Ileosa such an effective villain was the fact that she wasn't alone - she had allies and a support network around her that gave her authority and menace a substance and her deeds a plausibility that forced players to take her and her power base seriously. The antagonists of the Council of Thieves, however, have vaguely defined power bases throughout the adventure path, and even when numbers are hinted at, they're a bit lacking - Westcrown is a big place.
So it's up to you, the GM, to decide who Eccardian, Chammady and Sivanshin are, and give them distinct personalities you can bring to the table. A greater challenge is trying to find ways for these personalities to come across at the table throughout the adventure path without letting the PCs throw themselves at them, swords in hand, or feeling stonewalled (always a challenge and depends mostly on your group). Personally... I failed to do that with Sivanshin - I used him as written, and he came out as a rather humdrum adversary. Chammady I managed to use more extensively and give some life to, and the blank-slate that is Eccardian I wound up making little more than a meat-body for Mammon's will who constantly charmed his 'sister' to keep her loyal.
The second part is trying to actually give these villains a power base: Who are their lieutenants and operatives? Where do they lair? What are their interests? How do they get around (particularly important for Sivanshin)? Some check-lists for you to consider:
Ilnerik Sivanshin:
Is he cold and calculating? Broody? Does he mourn his undead state? What's his attitude towards life and the living? Does he consider vampirism a blessing or a curse?
What does he think of Eccardian and Chammady? Is he loyal? Is he willing to betray their secrets? Why? Has Eccardian offered his sister to the vampire as his deathly bride should their scheme succeed? What's the relationship between these villains, and how can it play out at the table?
Is Silana his only concubine, or does he have a Dracula-esque tendency to collect more?
By default, he's a Mastermind vampire who can have up to 52 thrall vampires and spawn, but only a handful are in the published module. Does he have vampiric lieutenants who serve him? Can some of these vampires be leading his shadow army elsewhere in the city, for the PCs to encounter earlier in the AP?
Can he use his Mastermind ability to speak through his minions as well, letting the heroes 'meet' him without fighting him directly?
Does the effect of the Totemrix pass on to his vampiric thralls while he possesses it? Can they be used to bolster his shadow army above the paltry 52 he is normally limited to?
What other shadow beasts can he summon, other than Shadowgarms (CR2, 2d6 at a time), Shadows (CR3, 1d4+1 at a time), Shadow Rat Swarms (CR4, 1d4 at a time) and Shadow Mastiffs (CR5, 1d3 at a time)? The Shadow Creature template is a fun one to play with here, as it lets you find a theme you like and template it to suit.
Where does his army go during the day? Is Walcourt the only lair, or does he have many lairs around the city? Given that he needs to lurk both on the island and the mainland, how does he handle the lack of bridges?
Chammady Drovenge:
Chammady is described (not in these words, admittedly) as being the velvet glove to Eccardian's iron fist; what is her role in their partnership? Does she work as the 'face' of the new Council, or does she work from the shadows? Are the council turncoats loyal to her, or to Eccardian?
Her description casts her as beautiful, dangerous, proud, intelligent and enjoying playing mind games. Is this the description you want to want to run with? Why is does she have that attitude? Is she really best suited as Ranger 10 / Assassin 4 with Int 10 (for a Death Attack DC13 even including her Assassin's Dagger, which is less than her assassin minions -_-) and no ranks in Sense Motive.... or do you want to adjust her build somewhat?
Why is she doing what she's doing? How does she feel about the misogyny rife within her family and the nobility at large (as described in Bastards of Erebus)? How does she feel about the prejudice against tieflings in Cheliax? Why does she feel that way?
Does she value Pride or Victory? If the former, is she actually going to be sleeping with a social-pariah patriarch of a rapidly declining minor house just to use his basement? Noting she and Eccardian are heirs to the most powerful of Westcrown's great houses.
Does she have any schemes or hobbies on the side? Does she have any allies or associates that are specifically hers? Are the PCs likely to run into her from time to time, outside of the Cornucopia and Devildrome?
Where does she live? Where is she generally to be found through books 1 through 5?
Does she meet the people the siblings 'deal with' in person? What is her role in events such as the assassinations in Books 4-5?
Given the events of Book 6 (read ahead), do you want her to be redeemable? If so, consider her above attitudes and motivations, and consider adjusting to suit. If not, consider how to handle the final encounter to enact the "Evil turns on itself" theme.
Is Chammady romanceable? If so, what sort of person interests her? Is such a thing a path to redemption, a path to corruption (for the PC as she usurps her brother and the two rule Westcrown together) or doomed to a tragic end?
Note on Stats: If you intend the PCs to fight Chammady, you need to pay attention to your party make-up as she is very biased towards fighting humans; between favoured enemy and bane she's adding +8 to attack and 2d6+8 damage per dagger attack vs. humans, making her quite deadly against them, and decidedly not against other races.
Eccardian Drovenge:
Who is Eccardian Drovenge? Is he volatile and filled with rage? Is sullen and broody? Does he hide behind a sense of humour? Does he like to snark?
How does he feel about his sister? Is he devoted? Is he possessive? Does he consider her a peer, a protector or an underling?
Is he in a relationship? Has he ever been in one? Is he insecure and inexperienced? Is he confident? Suave? Flat out asexual? Is he romanceable? If for some reason you go this route, consider both his tastes and how it would impact the story (it's probably doomed, but hey... that is also fun).
How does he feel about humanity? How does he feel about other tieflings? Does he consider humans to be lesser beings? Does he consider tieflings to be his peers, or misbegotten scum from inferior devils? Is he interested in overturning the prejudice against tieflings, or does he not care?
What is Eccardian's role in their partnership? Does he lurk exclusively in the shadows, or does he socialize or have a network of his own? Does he have loyal lieutenants or agents who enact his will?
Why doesn't Eccardian have a Hat of Disguise or Greater Hat of Disguise?
How does Eccardian complement his sister? Is he intended to be socially adept? Is he stealthy and agile, or brutally powerful? Does his published build of Rogue 10 / Duellist 4 suit the style statement you want him to have? Consider changing it if need be. In fact, consider changing it anyway.
Drovenge Family Drama:
At the core of the events of the Council of Thieves adventure path is the drama of the dysfunctional Drovenge family, however, despite the importance to the narrative it gets virtually no actual 'camera time', which lessons the impact of Eccardian and Chammady significantly. I can say whole-heartedly that it is worth getting the players a seat in the stage of this horrible drama as it plays out.
So how does one give the players a look-in to the drama that is at the heart of the entire adventure path? Well, here are a few ideas:
Star-Power: With the PCs rise to stardom in the Sixfold Trial there is potential to make the theatre an ongoing part of the campaign, and either Chammady, Eccardian or Vassindio Drovenge may harbour a secret passion for the dark plays of the Chelaxian stage, and as long as the PC(s) keep their heroic identities separate from their stage personas, they could find a patron among the Drovenge family.
Devildrome Champions: Chammady has a weakness for the spectacle that is the Devildrome and it's devil-summoning gladiatorial matches - and after the PC(s) take the Hellcaller Cup in What Lies in Dust, they may well need to return to defend their title. Chammady, meanwhile, may well end up as something of a fan or even sponsor - the venue giving the PCs a chance to see who she is and possibly gain some insight into the family drama.
No Mister Rebel, I expect you to die: Vassindio Drovenge is one of the leaders of the old Council of Thieves and something of a tyrant - when the Children of Westcrown start making waves in his city, they may well come into conflict with the loyalist Council of Thieves long before the Drovenge siblings usurp leadership of the organization. This introduces Vassindio as a "gentleman villain" working to foil their efforts. This works best in books 2-3, and allows a chance to introduce the old man and primary instigator of the whole plot.
I Need An Outsider: Conversely, Vassindio may well decide that the efforts to uncover the source of unrest within his organization are being thwarted by the questionable loyalty of his minions, and that it is time to bring in an outsider to help find the truth of the matter. This would allow the introduction of Vassindio as a character, insight into the strife within the organization and potentially see a (probably short-lived) working relationship between the old guard (they're not going to TELL people they're the Council of Thieves) and the Children of Westcrown.
Plots and Betrayal: If Eccardian and Chammady's relationship is not unbreakable and founded on complete trust, they may well be plotting against one another, and potent up-and-coming street heroes could be a useful ally or puppet.
Love Across the Battlefield: If you get the opportunity to introduce Chammady or Eccardian (likely using a Hat of Disguise), one of the PCs may well attempt to court the character, especially if they're presented as being potent, important or otherwise interesting characters. As neither the PCs nor villains should know that they are destined to be opposed to one another in later books (Assuming the PCs go with the secret-identity theme from Bastards of Erebus), a romance could very well start off which entangles a PC in the personal lives of the Drovenges, and makes things very entertaining later.
The Council of Thieves:
Among some of my criticisms of the adventure path was the treatment of the Council of Thieves as an organization - notably, that it's very nature appeared to change over the course of the Adventure Path from a hybrid of Mafia and Iluminati to a more 'stock' fantasy thieves' guild.
Now, tastes may vary and some may well prefer the idea of an organization with hidden ninja training facilities and stockpiles of stolen artworks... but I prefer the original vision of the Council; A secret cartel of the rich and powerful controlling the city and trade (legal and otherwise) within it. (To my mind stockpiles of stolen artworks are unlikely, given the richest people in the city are the Council members.)
If that appeals to you too, then I would suggest the following:
THE COUNCIL: The adventure path never actually states who the Council were, though it did drop a few names - notably all noble patriarchs. Going with a Council of Thirteen for the fun of it, I'd suggest the following;
Vassindio Drovenge (LE male human aristocrat 14): Patriarch of the most influential noble house in Westcrown, Drovenge, and Chairman of the Council.
Eirtein Oberigo (LE male human rogue 6): Patriarch of House Oberigo (2nd in influence to Drovenge) and Head of Discipline for the Council, managing enforcement and maintaining discipline and order within the organization and it's puppet gangs.
Rosano Salisfer (LE male human warpriest of Asmodeus 7): Patriarch of House Salisfer and Head of Eliminations, managing assassinations and abductions, as required.
Herana Julistarc (NE female human aristocrat 4 / rogue 4): Wife of Julistarc's patriarch, Ocatav, and only female member of the Council. She fulfils the role of Head of Relations, and manages the task of disguising Council activities and brokering alliances.
Teranal Dioso (NE male human aristocrat 8): Patriarch of House Dioso and Head of Information, managing the Council's spy network and informants.
Archpriest Despada (LE male human aristocrat 4 / cleric of Asmodeus 9): Local leader of the church of Asmodeus and Head of Faith for the Council, managing the organizations interactions with the Asmodean church and others.
Sandano Vitaron (LE male human aristocrat 10): Patriarch of House Vitaron and representative of House Mezinas to the Council, and serves as Head of Repayments, managing the Council's extortion and loan sharking.
Molovarn (LE male human rogue 11): Molovarn is "New money", having made his fortunes as a cut-throat slave trader and entrepreneur, he was quickly assimilated into the Council, where his fortunes have only grown since. He serves as Head of Servants and manages the Council's slave trade.
Durotas Scasi Bolvona (NE male human sorcerer 5): Durotas of the condottari, he serves to ensure that the canal wardens do not interfere with Council plans, and serves as Head of Shipping, managing the shipping and port access for the Council.
Velushi Rosala (LE male human aristocrat 8): Younger brother to the Rosala patriarch, he serves as Head of Armaments, and manages the lucrative weapons smuggling operations of the Council.
Lantanio (LE male human cleric of Abadar 5): While a minor priest within the church of Abadar, he provides the Council with discrete banking services and serves as Head of Accounts.
Neradal Khollarix (NE male human aristocrat 5): Eldest son of Khollarix patriarch, Stengarin, Neradal not only represents their interests within the Council, but serves as Head of Associates, managing the acquisition and direction of puppet gangs and similar organizations.
Iradanial (LE male human expert 6): While not nobility, Iradanial has a small merchant empire (no small thanks to the Council), and serves the Council as Head of Substances, managing the Council's narcotics trade.
The "roles" are mostly there to give some flavour to the individual Council members, as well as provide a potential hook for using them in your game (feel free to adjust as need be).
MEMBERSHIP: The big question of "So which noble families ARE allied with the Council?" is one that is never truly answered. In my version, the Council Membership looks like this (excluded noble families both great and small are not associated with the Council):
Drovenge (Imvius, Xerysis)
Oberigo (Aulamaxa, Ghival)
Salisfer (Chillarth)
Julistarc (Seidraith)
Dioso (Ucarlaar, Bolvona - elevated to minor nobility)
Khollarix (Rufano)
Rosala (Ulvauno)
Mezinas (Vitaron)
PERSONNEL: Rather than having armies of thieves and cutpurses (they don't "do" petty crime), the Council of Thieves instead uses mercenaries or noble's men-at-arms for most common enforcement activities, or trained agents usually drawn from the noble families of the membership.
When a Council assassin comes for you, they're well spoken, well dressed, well educated, thorough, utterly loyal to the Council and virtually impossible to get information out of short of mind-affecting magic. Agents of the Council who know they're agents of the Council have class. It makes them a better villain.
A lesser form of agent I dub a "Cleaner" is an individual who knows they work for the Council, but serves in a lesser role of supporting the Council assassins, or guarding premises.
FACILITIES: Rather than having secret hideaways with deadly death-traps, convoluted entrances and strange passwords... most of the time the Council meet in secret chambers within the Viras and Vaneos of those who sit on the Council. They don't contain stockpiles of 'stolen valuables', because they own most of the valuables in the city and aren't going to steal from themselves.
What they do have need of, is facilities for handling things that would be suspicious being in their own homes, such as stockpiles of illegal goods or extensive records on their activities. For these they need some nice, out of the way places - such as Walcourt. Such secret facilities are not ninja training grounds, generally a comfortable, clean environment clad in a veneer of ruin and grime, with warehousing and secret tunnels beneath and offices, scriptoriums and archives above. Because managing a successful criminal business still requires the same (or more) effort as managing a successful legal business. Such facilities normally have barracks for "Cleaners" who watch over the premises, but only in limited numbers.
PUPPET ORGANIZATIONS: It is through puppet organizations (gangs, mercenary companies, companies etc) that the Council truly shows it's muscle, as when it becomes time to put the hurt on someone or something (such as the Mother of Flies), they can rally their puppet gangs into a veritable army - all the while without revealing exactly who the gangs are working for.
Generally, I would suggest having multiple such gangs, and giving each their own bit of flavour, so that as the PCs encounter the various "Thieves" or "Cutpurses" in the published adventure path, they are instead simply unknowing puppets of the Council. Some suggestions:
Honourable Gents: Lead by Corhan, these well dressed and disciplined gangsters run the Blood Pit in Rego Cader.
Westmarsh Reavers: Lead by Alexite (Stiglor's former partner), these highwaymen and brigands terrorize the roads in the Westmarsh region.
Leopard Pack: Lead by Rakano "The Leopard" (named for a series of scars from a childhood encounter with a giant squid), this small band of amateur highwaymen operate in the marsh just north of Westcrown.
Blacknapes: Lead by Captain Hudson Green of the Amber Nymph, the "Blacknapes" are a pirate band that the Council organized to obtain a letter of Marque from Aberian (without his knowledge) and unwittingly serve the Council in their shipping and piracy interests.
The Shadow Curse:
The premise of a city whose night is ruled by shadowy beasts is awesome. The dearth of any information or guidance to the GM as to what would be appropriate, and a single unique offering in the bestiaries in this regard is... well... less awesome.
I recommend putting together a somewhat more extensive toolbox of shadowy horrors to inflict on your PCs as a priority, as they can come into play within the first hour or so of Book 1.
Here are some suggestions from me (feel free to use, ignore or create your own) of relatively easy-to-use critters, sticking with a theme of vampire + shadow to some degree:
[list]
Shadow Creature template (CR+1, B4), Shadow Lord template (CR+2, B4) or Nightmare Creature template (CR+1, B4), any of which give a different twist to classic monsters, or completely reskin things to suit Sivanshin's theme;
With Template: Bat swarm (CR2); dire bat (CR2); dog (CR 1/3); wolf (CR1); worg (CR2); krenshar (CR1, B2); giant centipede (CR1/2); stirge (CR1/2); rat swarm (CR2); dire wolf (CR3); peryton (CR4, B2); leucrotta (CR5, B2); cloaker (CR5); hungry fog (CR6, B3)
In any case, give yourself a decent mix of creatures to ensure that the PCs can handle being out at night, but aren't able to be complacent about it.
I'd suggest varied encounters, with a focus on small numbers of powerful creatures (or swarms) rather than groups of lesser minions or frequently encountering the same thing - familiarity breeds contempt and repetition breeds boredom. Until Sivanshin dies, the night should be strange, unpredictable and scary.