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Another tricky question I think ...

Murderous Command states "You give the target a mental urge to kill its nearest ally, which it obeys to the best of its ability. The target attacks its nearest ally on its next turn with a melee weapon or natural weapon"

...so

would a Magus cast a nasty touch spell on his weapon, possible also enchanting and making it, say vorpal, then move to attack the closest ally ? (as it seems this is the best way according to his abilities to kill him)

.. or would he just make a melee attack with whatever weapon enchantments and touch spells he happens to already ahve on his weapon ?

This question could be extended to cover all classes that can somehow make their melee attacks more powerful (barbarian rage for example)

thanks !

Thanks everyone for your feedback.

-Personally I feel the rules on stealth are pretty clear. If it was meant to be a move action on its own or 'always' included on a move they would say so. Starting with 'usually none' is as clear as it can get for me.

Anyway, the thing that worries me is an archer popping 4,5,6 or whatever arrows each round and hiding after. (I guess a archer with fly on him would be as lethal in different circumstances)

I am not that worried that its game breaking. As a strategy it can certainly own some encounters (for that matter the shadow companion alone can also own many encounters) but I feel its just that. Another strategy that the enemies must overcome (increase lighting/glitterdust/just retreat/whatever).

Its just that id like an official guideline to HiPS before introducing it to my table.

Well, thanks again

Ok, first my views on the subject based on the current rules as found on the prd and with some help from the forum:

a-Stealthing is not an action at all (or maybe an equal to a free action), you do not have to move or use a 'move action' to use stealth

b-You can leave concealment/cover, move and stay hidden for your turn as long as you end up in a 'stealthy= concealment/cover' place again

c-If you break your stealth by attacking, you can stealth again if you have the ability to reach a 'stealthy' place again after your attack

d-Hide in Plain Sight is also a free action, since it merely allows the use of the stealth skill in a wider range of occasions ('stealthy' now means being 10ft away from dim light)

e-You only have to be close to an area of dim light to gain the benefits of HiPS, you dont have to move, use a 'move action' or anything else

... so for a shadowdancer that stays in an area of dim light (or darkness) during his turn:

1) Can he break stealth, melee full attack an adjacent enemy (or one 5ft away) and stealth again ?

2)Can he break stealth, ranged-full-attack and stealth again ? (on the spot or taking his 5ft step) - mind you I am not thinking of sniping=staying stealthed.

3)Can he cast, break stealth, then either stealth again on the spot, or use his move action to move and stealth again?

...my thinking is that he can, just because I cant find something in the rules that prohibit this. I assume as mentioned that during his turn he stays at an area of dim light or darkness.

Taking this a step further, can a wizard/shadowdancer for example, break stealth cast a normal spell, cast a quickened spell and then stealth again (either by moving or staying on the spot, it doesnt seem to matter really, since both stealth and HiPS are free actions)

..thanks in advance !

thanks everyone for the answers !

This situation occured on our last session... A caster with mirror image on him was paralysed by a hold person spell.

I know that delivering a coup de grace to an opponent with total concealment requires two full round actions.. but how would you treat this situation ?

Same time? more or less?

I am thinking of the ruling about touching up to 6 allies in your turn, as part of casting a touch spell and that 'checking' 3-4-6 idols to realise they are idols, would probably require a similar amount of time.

Quote: "Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation.... "

"...Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements...."

Cannot support weight hints to me that the idols can be identified by a simple touch. Someone that wants to be faster than that could grope about with his weapon/limbs and identify the real target much quicker... perhaps as a move action ? (since all idols are in the same 5ft space)

Another thing to add that is that except from unconcealable, dancing lights requires the caster to 'cast' with a verbal component 'strong, firm voice' every 1min.

Nothing better in a deep underground dead-quiet dungeon... or whenever trying to be somewhat stealthy!

Ah thanks, I havent thought the 'directly above' possibility.

Still, it is a bit important because it means that the caster still needs the move action to direct the sphere.

Basically the question comes down to whether or not the caster needs the move action on the 1st round of casting.

Ok, I couldnt find an official ruling here, or a satisfying answer on the forum.

I am inclined to not allow the spheres to be able to cause harm without the caster actively directing (moving them). At least the wording of the spells points me to that way.

I saw a post mentioning that once cast inside a creature's space, the sphere instantly ends its 'movement', thus the caster cant move it that round at all. Still, does the original target gets a reflex vs dmg?

It is really not that important, but it could occur if for example two PCs flank an opponent in a corridor and the wizard wishes to cast the sphere directly on the opponent and never moving it (but at least gaining that rounds worth of reflex vs dmg).

Indeed, as was also previously mentioned, I think that the little details are far more important than the where/how you got the item.

..I now feel sry that I didnt pay much attention in describing the items my PCs looted in RoTR so far :(

PS .. to complement the ruling described above about scroll rarity, I will only be placing higher-than-base lvl scrolls in the extra magic items cities have, if a scroll pops on the random roll.

Well, to be honest I started playing pathfinder with a prior experience of 2nd ed and a DM that didnt allow any shops, or much gold for that matter.. only loot and gifts perhaps from npcs.

So I didnt like it at first that the core pathfinder rules or 'gm guidelines' suggested that many magic items would be readily available (75%). Even more so for scrolls/spells that are very cheap and by core rules 9th lvl scrolls should be readily available even in medium-sized towns.

For everything else except scrolls I soon realised that even the largest city in a world isnt expected to have anything more powerfull than a +2 weapon available, so that made me happier :p.

...but my problem still remained with the scrolls which I feel should be even more rare than permanent magic items (well their rarity should be directly proportional to the number of 'living' mid-high lvl casters in the world I imagine plus their will to share their researched or looted spells)

Anyways, since my players arent much interested in how they get their stuff or if it makes much sense world-wise, I made a rulling that a scroll of a certain lvl has an equal rarity of a weapon of certain enchantment and thus, price, so as to be able to tell my players which scrolls are available (75%) at every town.

The rulling is that a lvl 4 scroll corresponds to a 10k gp permanent magic item, a lvl 5 to an 18k one, a lvl 9 to a 70k one etc etc.

This rulling effectively means that scrolls of lvl 5 spells and above are as rare to find as are +3 weapons and similar items. I am putting it to use from the next session and I think my players will like it and it will make my life a bit easier too :P

It's probably a good idea to have someone awake, as Thorkull said, keeping watch and watching time fly, just to avoid the sudden plummet to the ground.

But a more interesting question is, how DO adventurers keep track of time? A pocketwatch? Carry around an hourglass or a water clock? Burning marked candles (and do you do that in an enclosed rope trick?)?

Sure, outside, I suppose watching the moon and stars would work, but what about in a dungeon? Camping or not, how do adventurers keep track of time?

If they are keeping watch, then it gets tricky with a wizard in the party. I am even willing to accept that 'keeping watch' counts for the 8hr sleep the wizard needs, as long as he sleeps during the last watch and prior to waking up and prepairing his spells.

This leaves us with the need for the other classes to be able to count time during their watch (inside the rope trick, or even outside in the open - not everyone has survival/dungeoneering abilities).

..oh I guess a minor small magic item to keep track of time shouldnt be that impossible/hard to find, maybe at a cost of 100gp or so.

-But- it still makes rope trick unusable for full rest until 9th lvl. Since at 8th there is simply not enough time for the wizard to fullfil his rest need. (a few minutes after climbing up to get ready for bed, a few before climbing down to wake up, get ready and avoid falling off .. and the actual act of climbing down.. Id say the wizard would need at least another hour of rest outside the 8th lvl rope trick)

I generally follow the rules of cities, base values etc with the exception of scrolls/spellbooks.

I think the fact that the wizard can chose any two spells at each level is keeping the wizard pc from being nerfed/unbalanced compared to melee PCs for example.

And I find that restricting scrolls helps with the whole feeling in the game of 'yay, look an X spell scroll !!'

To add an extra feel of 'I found smth new!', I place scrolls from all kinds of books in the extra magic items cities are supposed to have (I know my casters are using the prd index to browse for spells, so I use spells from books not in the index to fill up the extra magic item list when scrolls pop on the rolls )

edit: Also, many times the base value rules will limit item availability on their own. We are playing Rise of the Runelords AP now and Magnimar, a large city has a limit of 12-15k or smth for example. The max for a metropolis is 16k gp maybe a bit more if it is 'rich' or smth, so at higher levels PCs kinda depent on loot when using these rules

Ok, a question here... how does one keep track of time inside a rope trick spell ?

Even more so, how does one do it if he is sleeping inside the rope trick ??

.. I am willing to accept that the caster knows when his spell is about to end (and when it does actually end) but what happens if he is sleeping as well ?

I dont suppose he gets a wake-up call that his ropetrick is about to expire ..

I am asking this because if there isnt any way to actually keep track of time (or somehow know that your spell is ending while sleeping) then one could argue that rope trick can be used for an 8-hour rest at 9th lvl minimum, assuming that a tired adventurer will probably wake up on his own after about 7-8 hours of sleep.

Thanks in advance for any opinions !

Anyways.... it went awsome for my group !! Thanks again for the youths and beggar ideas !!

.. I chose the youth-make out party and my PCs fell right into the trap. It went even worse for them than I expected.

The only real-world female player was away for that session, so there was none to object when the young female aristocrat youth started complementing the magus for his looks and exotic katana :)

My PCs, being always on the paranoid side, stayed out of the room (living room place with the lion fireplace) while questioning the three youths, but they were quickly convinced that they were just some random young nobles having fun.. I am pretty sure they werent 100% sure that it was nothing (metagaming kicks in, people always think that if the gm spend time on this, it must mean something :p).

Even so, the wizard and talker of the party, which is probably the most paranoid of all, gave me the biggest surprise. Having being convinced and wanting to once-more appear 'awsome and powerfull' he ordered the youths to get out of the house fast and never tell anyone about them or they will tell their noble parents.

Since my PCs have positioned themselves on a single file line, with a square in between them each... the ambush went perfectly well.. while the youths were going out of the living room and past the PCs...

... the female youth commented on the magus' katana and moved closer to have a look.. and everyone rolled initiative... and the stalkers had a surprise round -and- the initiative -and- a square between each PC to move into and practically flank everyone :p

..the magus went down before the PCs had to act, yet he stabilised at -4 or smth, fun times !

thanks for the ideas, these are wonderful !

I gave the cultists mwk sickles ... simple weapon and slashing damage, no extra feat required. Still havent decided the replacement feats for martial weapon and selective channeling..

I also gave aldern a sickle instead of a razor to better connect with the story.

Thank you both for the ideas ! I was getting prepaired for this encounter and was totaly disappointed with it (using anniversary edition).

I think ill go with the youth make-out thing as my party is on the paranoid side but loves being flirted, admired etc by the common folk of the world :P .

I was also going to add a chainshirt to the stalkers as I have 3 melee PCs in the party.. but I think ill leave them as is and add a 3rd stalker to assist with flanking and help with action economy.

thanks again for the great ideas !

-edit: I think I will also let the stalkers use their two slam attacks at +7/+7 (1d6+4) instead of the longsword and one slam. I did the same thing with Aldern .. I find it that using a weapon actually reduces the effectiveness of creatures with natural attacks..