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Overclockworked wrote:

Replicate is also rad, shame there's no way to make it attack. But I can see how that'd get out of hand quickly

Shadow Illusion can get you the focus spell Shadow Illusion - which lets you create a shadow creature that can attack.

Well then its here, its all here. I'm shocked but its totally doable.

Bless 2e

It cannot replicate the mechanics (and will never be possible once there are different games with different balances and concetps) but you can reach the similar fantasy with a Ranger + Shadowdancer Archetype or Taumaturge + Shadowdancer Archetype.

I do agree that it wouldn't work on a 1:1 level, but Ankou's Shadow is already so clunky in 1e that a total re-envisioning might make it quite elegant with 2e's 3 action system. I can imagine balancing the shadow projection mechanics might be difficult though.

I'll check out the classes. Haven't read much on Thaum but I admit the combo sounds rather interesting.

A couple things I would note:

One, don't get confused by the name. Slayer from PF1 was renamed and became the Ranger in PF2. The PF1 Ranger doesn't fully exist in PF2 though it can be built fairly easily by a Ranger with Druid archetype.

Two, I would actually recommend the Shadowcaster archetype instead of Shadowdancer - though Shadowdancer wouldn't be a bad choice either. I would especially point to the Replicate spell being a successor to the Shadow Double ability from Ankou's Shadow.

Oh wow thank you for this! This even fits perfectly for flavor with the bit about sacrificing the spirit. Also yeah I only went Slayer bc I didn't want to manage two casting classes, PF2e Ranger itself is perfect.

Replicate is also rad, shame there's no way to make it attack. But I can see how that'd get out of hand quickly

Also Shadow Army is a rad spell to get in addition to the Replicate, even if its 10.

Hello!

One of my groups is still playing 1e but I'd considered pitching 2e because of how easy it is to GM. We're playing a Gestalt game but thankfully my allies are Witch/Oracle and Inventor/Gunslinger so they're covered quite well!

But I'm playing a Cleric / Slayer (Ankou's Shadow), which is where it gets kind of tricky. I understand that Ankou's Shadow is a pretty niche class so we likely won't see an archetype soon or ever, but the shadow abilities have become core to my PC's backstory and gameplay.

So how do I make that in 2e?

I'm assuming Summoner is my best bet? It seems like mechanically it meshes nicely, but sadly you're stuck with basically 1 shadow you can control very well, versus many shadows that scale in control.

Hopefully there's some archetype or option I missed, or something else I can reskin, but any help at all would be appreciated!

Hi Overclockworked,

The first thing you need to know...

Yeah I definitely got the idea that Cloisters are healing focused based on the font.

I'm fine being a healer, I just want to have a secondary function (debuffing) because I recognize I'm handicapping myself with 12 charisma. We'll fix it over play, but for now I only have the 2 healing slots, Medicine skill, and like Spirit Link.

I'd be fine with Harm build being a secondary function as well, but Pharasma is Heal only so I figured I'd be bad at that as well. I did notice Cast Down, which was quite tempting!

Welcome to PF2. For some advice: don't stress too much about optimization.

Thank you for this in depth reply! I'll be sure to prep those spells as they become available, especially Concordant Choir (all sources are available)

I recognize Death's Call is pretty risky, but we have a great front line so I was hoping I could get away with it anyway haha. It does seem like Pharasma doesn't have optimal domains, but some of them seem decent. I'll pick up Time for sure.

The concept is pretty close to the mechanical stuff, a Fungal Leshy Cleric of Pharasma, with the Empty Whispers background. We're in Sigil, but I came from the Feywild. My creator was a druid who is also in Sigil, which is how I was justifying the druid archetype. My current personal arc is revolving around me learning empathy and mortal ways, since as a Leshy I have a very different view on life and death. In this homebrew Sigil we have Pharasmins accompany adventurers to make sure their souls (and equipment) don't get snatched by evil powers while adventuring.

I was initially wary of multiclassing into another spellcaster since its been so bad historically, but it seems like PF2e has largely fixed that problem. The problem now is parsing all the spell lists to see which one would be good, since we now have Occult. Druid does seem thematic, maybe Leaf Order? How is the Primal list, would it overlap much with Divine?

Thanks again, amazing input!

Hi,

I'm building a for my first PF2e character, a Leshy Cloistered Cleric of Pharasma. Love the system but I'm a bit overwhelmed by the options at the moment. I've noticed many of the Cleric feats are oriented around either war priest, healing, or harm blasting, so I'm wondering what I should take if I'm looking to focus on spells

I have poor charisma (12, aiming to improve it as part of my character arc), so I am to use Medicine for primary healing. Since I get Phantasmal Killer, I figured I could be a debuffer with Intimidate and other fear spells.

I realize archetypes crack this wide open, opening up an ocean of other feats. Druid archetype? I see you can get an impressive amount of spell slots from taking the 3 casting feats for a caster. I won't have the stats for Champion archetype until level 10, so that's out.

And then there's domains, I understand I'll want around 3 to get max focus pool? I've started out with Death to be a health battery.

Also any general cleric advice or anecdotes are welcome.

Overclockworked wrote:

Honestly I just read they can AoO on a reddit post and took that answer for granted, so thank you for making me actually look into this. I'm fairly certain however that RAW they can AoO, though I get it might seem odd.

Eh, RAW the doubles can only do what is outlined in their description and nothing else.

RAW, and RAI, the doubles don't even have an attack bonus at level 5. The only stats they possess are AC, CMD, and saving throws. Which is why you're using your BAB+INT for the Aid Another checks you can direct them to perform rather than their attack rolls.

AoO not being an action type does allows a stunned creature to still perform AoOs, but this is a faulty reading of the rules that conflates the general use of the word "actions" with the specific meaning "action types".

But if you've already convinced your GM then go for it. If you choose Nature Fang I'd mount your companion and circle around the battlefield, dropping of the doubles in strategic positions. If you can squeeze in the Escape Route feat then neither you or the mount will provoke AoOs when it moves.

Ugh, yeah, I guess the archetype just sucks then.

I'm going to bring this up to my GM and go back to the drawing board I suppose.

It's an archetype that introduces a pretty restricted and complex shadow double ability while also doing away with the Slayer's main accuracy booster. I guess most people don't think it's worth the hassle.

Overclockworked wrote:

Thoughts about the Ankou Shadow

- Shadows seem to threaten with whatever weapon you're wielding, and can take AoOs post-5. You can make trip attacks with weapon AoOs, so thusly, shadows should be able to trip.

I'd disagree with that they can take AoOs. The lv 5 shadows are extremely limited in what they can do and I don't think AoOs are part of that. As written they seem unable to do anything but move (as part of your move action), provide flanking, and aid another at your command.

It's first at level 15 that you could actually instruct one of them to open a door, which seems a lot less complex than taking an AoO. You could argue that they're able to take AoOs at level 10 when you can use them as origin points for attacks, but a stricter GM may say that's in the purview of the capstone.

Honestly I just read they can AoO on a reddit post and took that answer for granted, so thank you for making me actually look into this. I'm fairly certain however that RAW they can AoO, though I get it might seem odd.

The one thing we know is they flank, which according to the rules means they have to be threatening squares.

When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

And of course

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.

This would still preclude them from taking AoOs if they were any sort of action, but it doesn't seem they are. AoOs aren't an immediate or free action, they're a totally separate mechanic that has no action attached to it, characterized as a "free attack"

I'd totally understand if a GM didn't accept this interpretation, thankfully I asked mine and they seem to.

Personally, I wouldn't use Cleric as the second half of the gestalt... I would use Nature Fang Druid, to get my Studied Target back. The way Studied Target works, it would apply to the DC's of all your Druid spells and stuffs... nice, huh? As a Druid, you could still take a Domain. It doesn't appear you have much focus on Channel Energy, so no loss there as a Druid. Nature Fang gives you even more Slayer Talents, too... and +1D6 Sneak Attack, not that it matters because Sneak Attack sucks, but it is there.

Oh wow this is so good. Thanks for pointing that out. The animal companion I think totally pushes it over the top.

Also, why does Sneak Attack suck? I know neither class gets good SA progression, but my impression was full BAB balanced that out since it can apply more frequently.

Ankou Shadow + Trip, or combat maneuvers more generally. I haven't seen a lot of discussion around this archetype so I'm curious what people think of it (I did see it in IluzryMage's recent guide).

Disclaimer: I am running a lvl 4 Cleric (Travel/Luck) // Ankou Shadow gestalt that's built around being a reach cleric ala Brewer's guide. But I'll put a spoiler at the end with those details since becoming a one man phalanx is the interesting part here.
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Thoughts about the Ankou Shadow
- Shadows seem to threaten with whatever weapon you're wielding, and can take AoOs post-5. You can make trip attacks with weapon AoOs, so thusly, shadows should be able to trip.

- Mandatory basic feats. Combat Reflexes. Improved & Greater Trip. Surprise Maneuver seems really good post-9. Not as good as on rogue, but Slayer gets full BAB to even it out.

- Post-5 you can have your shadows flank and swift action aid another a single enemy, which can get you a minimum +4. The shadows don't utilize flanking/aid another feats, but I think buffs worded as "when you (i.e. the slayer) flank, X occurs" should work.

- This actually seems insanely strong because you can permanently turn on your sneak attacks when soloing enemies.

- You share movement with shadows, and they provoke AoOs, but with a reach weapon this isn't as big a deal. If you can't position them safely, then just leave them behind you as you run a circle around your enemy or a line across the battlefield. Acrobatics seems mandatory for this reason, I think.

- Getting shadows up is a full round, but you can leave them up forever, and hopefully, the person actually hitting will draw more aggro than the flanking/aiding shadows. Evasion is a mandatory talent at level 10. How strong the shadows are depends entirely on how much you piss off your GM.

- Slayer Talents really suck, just over 20% of them are Samaran only. This is doubly true for Ankou's Shadows who don't get Studied Target. You'll most likely want Slow Reactions, and then nothing but Ranger Combat Style and Rogue Talents.

- Ascension Games has a gross polearm combat style slayers can take. Opens up Cleaving Finish, Whirlwind, and Pin Down without the feat prereqs.

- Alternate build (or late game retraining), go down the Kitsune line and become a one-man phalanx of dirty tricks.

- Forest Warden gives your flanking bonus an additional +2, and gets you +2d6 sneak attack dice (which also adds to Surprise Maneuver). This should actually net you +1 in most circumstances since you lost 3 BAB, but that depends on how often your GM hits your shadows. But you also get a ton of other goodies even if your shadows go down.

- It might be wise to spec into dirty tricks post-10 to deal with the issues of late game trip builds. You have to get the Dueling (FG) property on your weapon, but that seems worth it to transition all your buffs to dirty trick.
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I'm not sure you need to start hacking rules to make Pathfinder combat more interesting or rewarding. A lot of it comes down to combat design.

1. Always use multiple enemy types, even if its just dudes with multiple weapon types (archers, melee, mages). This adds a "prioritization puzzle" to your combat, which is good.

2. Always use more than 1 creature, even in BBEG fights. You want to start the fight with roughly even action economy, or overwhelming action economy that can be quickly cut down to par (i.e. low CR mooks)

3. Use more interesting battlefields. Cover, obscurement, hazards, and the like will obviously make a more interesting battlefield than a blank room.

4. Alternate goals. Someone already mentioned this but if the PCs need to accomplish something other than "beat down the evil dude", you add another layer to the aforementioned "prioritization puzzle". Pull the levers, solve the puzzle, save the baby, all while under fire!

5. Move more. I think the biggest issue "rules wise" with Pathfinder is how static it can make combat. Once you get into full attacking position you're disincentivized from moving or even repositioning due to AoOs. Giving your enemies more movement abilities that let them engage and disengage will let you explore more of the battlefield. If you lean really heavily on this, you may want to give your PCs some fun movement items as well so they can keep up.

6. Regarding boss fights specifically, you just cram 2-3 monsters in one body and call it good. One body, but it gets +X pools of hit points that act as boss stages, and +1 action per pool alive. Purge any conditions or debuffs on phase switch. This is called the Paragon System by the Angry GM, its largely system neutral and its worked better than 5e's legendary actions.
Paragon Stuff

Can't speak for unchained classes. Just getting back into Pathfinder, but I've heard very good things about them.

Overclockworked wrote:

Also my character is Buffy McHelpie because he follows the god of the roads and fortune, his calling is to aid travelers. I think any Buffy McHelpie is at least a little battle cleric, at least mine is. And I personally think turning your allies into a host of angels would be awesome high level cleric stuff.

Fair enough, I just like saying Buffy McHelpie. Incidentally, one very interesting spell to metamagic the crap out of is Admonishing Ray, which happens to be non-lethal. Since it's been ruled that rays are 'weapons' for purposes of spells like Divine Favor Admonishing Ray gets a buff on each ray from Favor. But the real fun is that Toppling Spell and Dazing Spell can be played off of each ray, letting you attempt to trip up to three targets (Favor buffs trip attempts too), or make three Daze attempts (GM might want to rule only one attempt/target because getting three daze shots is pretty nasty). It's not exactly buffing, but it's very helpful (and fun) to be knocking around the opposition with hefty non-lethal linebacking.

Between that ray hilarity and all these high level debuff and nukes, I might have to roll another cleric as bad touch. It'd be nice to fix what I did wrong by ignoring metamagics (and some item purchases).

Which is amusing because before this game Cleric was my least favorite class, now I adore it. I've been a little pessimistic in this thread but I do love playing cleric.

Pah! You lack imagination....

Cast Nine Lives on each of you're party members.... Job done!

Greater communal spell immunity for pudding and if you're feeling greedy.... Miracle

"Oh beacon of light, giver of life, purveyor of all things pure and true, aid my allies. Grant them uber buffage!!" A +10 Divine AC and DR20 for 1 round/lvl seems reasonable....

I actually don't have access to 8th spells until next level, but Nine Lives is exactly what I'm looking for. So that helps immensely when I get there. Shame its only one target.

The game will end before I get 9th level spells, unfortunately.

I definitely f~*!ed up by not taking Quicken Spell true, I did not foresee this issue and I've never played a cleric before. Unfortunately we just leveled to 12. Still a metamagicked spell isn't the same as having actual written content for spells of that level.

Also my character is Buffy McHelpie because he follows the god of the roads and fortune, his calling is to aid travelers. I think any Buffy McHelpie is at least a little battle cleric, at least mine is. And I personally think turning your allies into a host of angels would be awesome high level cleric stuff.

So I'm having trouble with the high level cleric spell list with regards to my buffing cleric?

Where are all the buffs? There's the paladin aura and holy aura and that's basically it at high levels, both of which are round/level. Where are my huge, aoe, min/hour per level buffs? Where are my one man juggernaut buffs?

The cleric spell list from 6+ becomes a bad touch cleric's wet dream, it seems like the writers just assumed everyone wanted to cast 8 versions of "kill you". But my character doesn't cast harmful magic and I'm rapidly running out of support for my build.

Then you have the symbols clogging up the list with even more NPC spells. And crap that shouldn't be a high level spell like making a POND with Oasis.

What's good are the world shaping spells that are super open ended, but then you're basically wizard-by-grace-of-god.

It feels like the buffing archetype got totally dumped in the end game in order to make bad touch/wizard clerics? The spell list feels like swiss cheese, some levels I have 10 golden spells I really want and other levels its totally barren.

None of this is helped by railroading in our current game making the great open ended cleric spells useless. Control Weather and Scrying are utterly curtailed because they have too much potential to change the game's course.

Alright now tear into me and tell me how great the cleric's list is and how I'm a spoiled full caster. Don't get me wrong I love playing my cleric, I'm just kind of struggling with the high level list and what to prepare.

EDIT: I should clarify that I'm using a Candle of Invocation to prepare some higher level spells is why round/level doesn't work so well for me.