Naleax's page

Please cancel my pathfinder adventure path subscription.

Getting back on topic....

I think BB is a great intro into the Pathfinder Core Rules, I just think it needs to progress much like the design and rules layout of the BB. After learning from the BB a customer then picks up the Core Rule Book only to find out its simplicity of design is nothing like that of the BB. In effect you have to go back and re-read the rule book to see if you've got it all right, and at 300 pages + thats a daunting task. BB progression into Core Rules would need to be uniform to make the transition easy for the beginning player.

With that said a book or other boxed set that expands the game with the rest of the core rules content and utilizing the design element of the BB would be a perfect solution and would satisfy needs across the board. It would in effect make the game modular, but compatible with core rules.

That would be a great support product and mesh the BB and its expansion product nicely into the Core Rules, AP's, Modules etc. It would also give players/Gm's a choice on how they progressed with the rules. I can see players showing up to games with core rule books, others with BB and its expansion, both being the same just with different presentations.

Make sense..?

Illusion aside I've always judged rpg rules complexity by page count. This goes hand in hand with good writing. If you can convey a rule clearly, and in as few sentences as possible, you've done your job as a designer/writer. The BB does that almost perfectly, but adds a design element that assists remarkably well, and keeps the skill, feat, spell, combat options to a minimum. This makes it easier for everyone playing, in turn making a faster paced game.

The more options you give, the higher the page count, the more complex the game becomes.

Here's the trick of the illusion,

when you see a page count your brain makes assumptions on the complexity, and you build mental and psychological barriers, to stop a truck, for an ant.

If you were to ratio the BB rules to the Core rules, with core rules at 100%, the BB is at 60%, so your half-way to the Core.
The differance is the number of options is greater in the Core and thus takes up more space, that and the Core book is also the GM guide, which adds to it's intimidating size.

Gah! This is the same reason why 20 sit ups seem easier than 100! Its all in my head!

I see your point, but all those extra options really do seem to weigh the game down considerably. IMO, BB is just much more agile with all the fat trimmed off.

And if you think it's complicated, that's incorrect.
As you are making it more complicated than it appears to be.
For it's your view that created the illusion of it's complexity.

Pathfinder Core Rule Book Chapters 1-10 - 372 pages

I don't think the page count is an illusion. 372 pages appears much more complicated than 64 pages.

I understand the Beginner Box is meant to be an introduction to the Pathfinder Core Rules, but it is equally suitable to being a stand alone product imo, even if its never supported beyond whats already been done.

But frankly Pathfinder Core can only ever have limited appeal (even if it's the 800lb gorilla of the RPG world), it's just too complicated, and like 3e too vulnerable to min-maxer play that deters more casual players.

I agree. I'm a GM and a player in two groups who shun Pathfinder Core for those very same reasons. Beginner Box is right up our alley.

I keep hearing these same comments and it makes me wonder how many GM's and players would become Paizo customers based solely on their experience with the Beginner Box.

You're not the only one Harles. My group dropped Pathfinder Core Rules just after it was released for simpler systems like C&C. We all liked aspects of Pathfinder, but it was just to complex/crunchy for us.

I bought the Beginner Box a couple of weeks ago after reading a blog post about the BB, and have started a Pathfinder revival. After I showed the other GM in our group the BB he immediately fell in love with it. BB is now becoming our house rules of choice.

We aren't planning on migrating to core rules, but like you I may be dragging out some of my old AP's like Rise of the Rune Lords and running the first couple of installments.

This is my first post in a long time. I haven't been into Pathfinder in quite some time. Bascially I have two needs, a game that is easily learned and simple to play. The beginner box fills those needs, core rules not so much.

I imagine, due to the popularity of the BB that if Paizo doesn't follow it up with an expansion product, someone else (an independent publisher) will captilize and fill the demand for more products.

Just my thoughts.

Can you please cancel my Pathfinder Adventure Path subscription.

So here's a question for you... If you believe the oft repeated phrase that 4th edition will "fire" D&D's current fan base in an attempt to capture a younger audience, how do you think that this will be accomplished?

What's going to be different about this incarnation of D&D that will send kids out in droves to buy it? Is there going to be a new cartoon show? Is it the new Minis game? Perhaps another attempt at making a good movie? A new MMORPG?

Thoughts?

I don't think kids will buy 4th edition, instead I think their parents will buy it for them. 4th edition books are to expensive for a middle class kids allowance. Rather I think the parents who play or have played D&D will purchase the game for their kids. Whether the kids will or will not take to the game - who can say.

I do think 4E will or does appeal to children who like fantasy because of the fancy artwork, but I have found that most kids don't really care about the rules as much as they do about using their imaginations and wiping out miniatures in intense combats.

I also don't think kids will rush out in droves to buy 4E, but parents who have played D&D (or still do) will buy 4E for their kids in an attempt to bring them into the hobby. I have played 4E and think its more of an advanced version of the D&D miniatures game. It's fun and I really dig the strategy involved but I would never use 4E as a roleplaying game or to introduce a novice to roleplaying unless that's what he/she wanted to play.

I think what draws the kids to D&D 4E are the cool collectible miniatures, the board game like combat, but not necessarily the roleplaying. When the kids who cut their teeth on 4E get older, then they will start incorporating more and more roleplaying into the game and it will evolve to reflect that - perhaps by 8 edition.

So I guess what i'm saying is that there is nothing different about this incarnation of D&D other than the massive alteration of the rules and the stiff price of the books. I think the alteration does appeal to kids because kids like video games and 4E is like a video game played at the kitchen table. It was the same with me when I was a child. I just wanted to kill some monsters in the caves of chaos, gain levels and collect treasure. It wasn't until I was older that I wanted to explore the keep on the borderlands, learn about the interesting NPC's that lived there and root out the intrigue and mystery behind those NPC's. Luckily I could afford the basic set and later the expert set on my allowance.

I think WOTC is marketing to kids through their parents. Does any of this make sense??

Woops, forgot to add something. WOTC should make a cartoon. I think the cartoon is what drew a lot of kids to D&D in the 80's. A 12 episode thing on cartoon central might help sell some books. Then again unless they lower the price or put out a basic edition for a lower price they might just have a lot of kids begging for an allowance increase so they can afford the books.

I have been playing D&D 3.5 for quite some time. After GenCon last year my group dabbled with the beta of Pathfinder RPG. I like what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder and look forward to the future of this RPG.

One of the biggest frustrations I have had with D&D 3.5 and the Pathfinder RPG is getting new players to play in games which use these rules systems. I have had better success introducing players to roleplaying using the old Basic Dungeons & Dragons and recently Basic Fantasy.

However I'm a big fan of Pathfinder and Paizo products in general and would love to see a basic edition of this RPG for new players coming to the game. New players seem to be disinterested by the amount of rules they have to learn and the size of the rulebook. I've had several potential players decline because they are overwhelmed by the rules even though they love to roleplay, especially the younger generation.

This is something I thought TSR did very well with Basic D&D. Speaking from experience with this, I myself started playing Basic D&D for the first couple of years after I was introduced into the game. As I became older I transitioned to 1st edition AD&D and was not overwhelmed by the rules because of my experience with Basic D&D.

Consider this my plea to consider Pathfinder Basic as an introduction to the RPG for new players. I think this would be a great way to introduce players to role playing games and allow them to get familiar with a simpler set of rules. Then later they could step up to the Pathfinder RPG after having learned the basic rules.

I actually got to play 4E in the RPGA Tournament this year at GenCon. The tournaments consist of 4 hours. In the first round we had 5 9th level characters. Keep in mind during tournament play there is little if any roleplay, it’s mostly just the DM reading flavor text to set the scene for the players.

Our first round of combat was against two owlbears and a couple of rounds into the combat two satyrs attacked us as well. This combat lasted about 2 hours. Our DM was very organized and and knew the rules inside and out. It was literally trying to bash the owlbears and satyrs down that took so long. We thought we would never chew through the owlbears hitpoints, and the combat was taking forever.

Our second combat consisted of two treant like creatures, a couple of vine horrors and two other creatures I am unfamiliar with. We strategized this combat a bit better but it took us a little under 2 hours to complete.

We just reached the 3rd encounter before time ran out. keep in mind this is not roleplaying any, just combat. In my opinion 4E should have been toned back a bit so that encounters did not run so long. It gets quite boring trying to kill a creature with hundreds of hit points. I can only imagine how long a combat at level 20 - 30 would last but I can see that you better have a weekend to fight something like a red dragon.

I am the DM of our groups weekly game, we only play four hours every Friday night and I certainly don't want to spend the entire four hours running a combat or two. Also the repetitiveness of 4E powers gets very boring after a while.

Sounds like many other people are starting to see this as well. I did have a lot of fun playing 4E in the tournaments, I like the strategy of combats in 4E. However combats take way to long and ultimately in campaign play would leave little time for roleplay, especially at the higher levels.

Just my opinion and experience.

I think a social conflict system might be a good expansion or accessory to add on later but my prefrence is to leave such rules out of the core rule book. This sounds more like an optional rules set that could be added by those wishing to do so. Diplomacy, Bluff and Sense Motive or I should say Deception and Diplomacy are good enough for core rules.

This is me being lazy but.... Could we get an evolving Pathfinder RPG character sheet for use while testing? Something that could be downloaded from the website and printed? And if this already exists would someone kindly give me a link. I did not see one in the Pathfinder RPG alpha playtest rules.

I do see differences in the two games based on the Alpha release, but I'm still not convinced the game itself is going to contain enough changes to justify its purchase.

Right now probably not enough changes, but when it's finally released i'm sure it will be a much improved version of Dungeons & Dragons 3.5. Only time will tell. I look forward to perusing the Pathfinder RPG in its final draft.

Who cares how Wizards Of The Coast feels about Paizo's decision. I'm just glad someone picked up and carried the proverbial D&D 3.5 torch after Wizards Of The Coast decided to toss it in favor of 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons.

Although 4E doesn't look like my type of game and I will be stepping away from being a WOTC consumer, I do wish them success in their endeavours. I sincerely hope 4E is successful in bringing a whole new generation of young role-players to the tabletop to carry on this splendid hobby. Who knows maybe all these kids playing MMO's on computers will discover tabletop role-playing through 4E D&D

I'm curious though how the whole Open Game License works. Could Wizards Of The Coast terminate the OGL, thereby ending the Pathfinder RPG before it ever gets off the ground?