ciretose wrote:
Weirdo wrote:
Several non-skill charisma checks made to influence people have been mentioned. Your failure to take those into account suggests either you are ignoring your opponents' position or intentionally misrepresenting it. Either way it is making it very difficult to engage in rational discussion with you.
Citation please. I've heard mention, but no citation. And I've asked for it.
What has been cited are diplomacy or intimidate checks doing exactly what the skill says it does, within the constraints and limitations of the skill.
I've never said they should have a harder time using the same skill with the same bonuses. I've said that the skill itself doesn't do anything more than the skill indicates, and that not factoring charisma in generic non-skill related NPC interactions makes no sense.
Do you disagree with that?
I believe they refer to the mention of Charisma in opposed contests when trying to command a beguiled person. It's true that the line you are defending could have been written with that in mind. However, it is worded in such a way that it covers ANY check dealing with social interaction.
Checks that represent attempts to influence others. I'm not understanding why anyone thinks this line definitely does NOT cover social interaction, but MUST cover contests of will in a few spell descriptions. It's the old religious debate. You can't prove this line covers initial NPC attitudes. They can't prove that it doesn't. Neither side understands why the other doesn't get it.
I'm of the mind to say it covers both.