Midnight-v's page

Breifly, to a large extent I agree with Matt Trent and Pendagast, I feel that this power is underwhelming, and that there may be an issue of translation from Mr.Bulhmans veiw of how unsavory it is to be a samurai.
Longer notes include...
1. I'm going to assume that everyone understands or has just wiki'd up "Ronin" and/or tvtropes'd it. So you know about Miyamoto, 47 samurai graves, as well as Lone Wolf and cub/Ronin Jin from samurai warriors. So our ideas about Ronin, have equal traction since we all have the same sources. (if you are a strict historian, likely very little will appease you about a samurai in a fantasy setting).
2. I'm going to assume that it matters what we think and that a well presented case will have more traction that just saying "This suxx0rs!!! Fix now!". Though it is the internet and in a lot of ways thats totally expected.
3. That playing a Ronin, is actually supposed to be something that Jason and Co recognizes, as something that a lot of us really DO want to do, "because thats how people role".

In anycase as is stated above the "Rule of Cool" is with the ronin, so you're going to find about 1/2 of the audience wanting to actually play a character in the vein of Miyamoto Musashi or some version of a selfstlyed tough who is a samurai only in that he's killing you with a katana(or other asian thing) and in his case "Bushido is the new dead parents" as a part of his angst/motivation.

If you're saying that being a samurai is strictly a better option than being a samurai and you want to mechanically represent that then well yeah you've basically shown (it's a don't ever use this) that the op is right and thats intentional and sad, because again there's a good portion of people who have the romaticized "masterless samurai" as being something awesome and that we totally want to play, but we won't because the designer punishes us for doing so.

Moreover, the samurai is likely going to used by a player in a NON eastern, setting. I mean I'm samurai the class but were still going to go dragon slaying in a party with a Cleric, Rogue, Mage. So storywise if you encounter a "Samurai/Ronin" in the main setting at all, then its likely a ronin (which makes even more sense if being a ronin in "samurailand" is distinctly a bad thing one thing you'd like to do instead of suicide would be stow away to a new land where there's less social ramification about it). This means that a Ronin is more likely to fight Monsters than other samurai, and also have more determination and freedom in thier fighting stlye which is needed because you've either have stopped fighting strictly humans. Futhermore its reasonable because some ronin (The ones we want to play based on miyamoto musashi) DON'T have access to formal schools, are fighting other samurai but will display an array of tactics that vary from Ronin to Ronin.
Pfew... That being said,there are two fair options for this. Instead of the challenge feature...
1. (Simple Answer)
Each Ronin gets a bonus feat, of any feat that they qualify for, this feat DOES NOT have to be a combat feat.
Why? Ronin are pickin this up as they go as I said now so you're going to get cool fights out of these dudes. Now I'd like to add "Choose one skill, this is now a class skill for the ronin", cause if I'm mistaken there that whole "Samurai are above doing X" thing, that social more may or may not apply to your runaway sword servant
and
2. Make a chart. (complex)
Make a chart of abiites that you can choose something from and you get that instead of the ever increasing samurai challenge power.
I say complex because it will actually require some thought, I think.
You could but any number of things on there... sneak attack, comes to mind, since it'd be such a slowly progressed thing 1d6 every 4 levels whathave you but ultimately it'd be a bout 6-8 things to chooes from, one of which would be gain a bonus feat. Ahh... brainstorm complete it could be like the special abilites of the rogue in 3.5 just choose from these options. etc.

TL;Dr, just give them a bonus feat and a choosen class skill instead of the challenge, let that represent the many varied things that the ronin learns following his personal path of bushido.

CyborgRodent_of_Logic wrote:

Your character is functionally retarded. You will be assimilated. Report to CharOps for immediate optimization. You will be known as Sweetcheeks_of_logic. Resistance is futile.

I like your style.

Both of you guy are so FULL OF IT!

"it" in this case being "win".

Magenta's Cat wrote:

In the tradition of "If it's not broke, don't fix it"...what was so wrong with Power Attack that it needed a change?

I vote for leaving it as is (3.5 version).

It needs to be altered so that sword 'n' board fighters don't get screwed.

Aside from this, yes, it should be reverted.

I think Power attack is fine. Sword and board fighters need to be changed so they don't get screwed.

My suggestion is that any spell that gives the party a free rest (e.g. rope trick, teleport, MMM) should have a costly material component. The 15-minute adventuring day and scry 'n' die would be less favoured if you have to pop 500 or 1,000 gp every time you wanted a nap or teleport in somewhere. From an economic point of view it makes more sense for wizards to actually build towers to live in rather than MMMing, and for the transportation of goods to be by mundane means.

The only concern I have is with Teleport and it's role as a GTFO spell in a tight situation. Perhaps the material component could be a gold ring or something that's always "on hand".

I don't understand this logic. Why does he hate rope trick? Why was this considered a good idea. What is this 15 min adventuring day?

I mean Lets say a combat runs 10 rounds thats one minute. Are you saying you have 15 combats a day?
Please explain...

That being said, the majority of RPG consumers is white males. White males will identify most with white males as art characters, and as I have conclusively proven in this thread, we also like scantily clad females (also usually-not always white).

Krome your honesty is the most amazing thing in this thread.

" We are white,we are your major audience, we prefer to see white heroes ('cause hey Look its us!), but we do immensely enjoy objectifiying the women of other races and cultures! Please make sure to include this concept as much as possible! I've provided links as example of what we'd like to see"

LOL. Fair enough my friend, fair enough.
Feedback is a wonderful tool. Amen.

TerraNova wrote:

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but the term "species" is actually well-defined and pretty unambiguous: If two otherwise healthy and fertile individuals can interbreed with fertile offspring, they belong to the same species. If not, then the belong to different ones. Pretty much noone would consider a Doberman and a German Shepard different species, because they can breed. And about noone would put a donkey and a horse into the same species, because all they ever produce could be born dead from a fitness perspective.

That is way oversimplified as a definition of species. Darwins finches leap to mind as a case involving several species that are cross-fertile. What you have is a basic definition of species, but in practice it can get more complicated than that - and exceptions exist in both directions (that is, cross-fertile and not the same species, and not cross-fertile and the same species). For the latter, the examples I'm aware of are mainly mechanical issues.

Edit: and yes, I mean cross-fertile with fertile offspring. Even that gets murky - some mules and a single documented hinny have been fertile :)

Its just hard to really discuss darwinism as pertaining to a world where the Gods are indisputable reality and could personally kick you ass for not believing in them.

Krome wrote:

Actually there is no definitive definition of Race. We are all Homo Sapiens, yes, but it can truly be argued that humans have different races. For politically correct reasons we are loathe to do so.

The reason for what I just said is that by what is commonly agreed upon as justification for race can be very minor. For example, two birds of the same species may have a few feathers of a different color. Those two birds are often times separated as two races.

So, if birds and other animals can be separated into races for purely cosmetic reasons such as fur or feather color, then the human species can as well.

No, they would be separated as two sub-species.

And it would be done on the basis of significant genetic differences.
The key of course would be that they are still the same species, completely interfertile, with the same genetic structure, only a few minor variants in coloration.

Krome wrote:

However, more and more scientists are questioning the distinction between species and race. What makes something different enough to qualify as a race? Some scientists would argue the two birds are the same race.

No, they would call them the same species, even if of different subspecies.

That is the essential difference with humans. We add a completely different term based solely on appearance that is not used with any other creature.

Krome wrote:

So, when we are discussing racism, or race in general as applied to humans, there is no consensus on the matter. What we do know for a fact, is that we are the same species. We do not know if race even truly exists in scientific terms anymore for any creature.

As far as goblins go... or any nonhumans, if they can mate and reproduce with a human they are in the same genus at least, and if the offspring is fertile then they are the same species.

So, humans, orcs and elves are the same species, and here we would argue then that humans, elves, and orcs are different races or more properly subspecies under the...

With the half planars and such I'm pretty sure they're not an acutual species at all but *insert somthing vague about magic and reproduction* at which point things become gibberish.

Okay. I'm going to suggest something I've always wondered but never had the chance to share really. Why are we not considered different "breeds" of human? Like "Breeds" of dog? Can someone explain this to me? I would think. . .the concept might, I don't know neatly explain away half-elves and Half-orcs as well as why there are no Dwelfs or Whatever on would call a mix between an orc and an elf.
I just finished reading the monster re imagined book by paizo (By this by the way it has the most terrifying bugbears ever)
for whatever reason orcs and elves can't interbreed though I think there would be some example of such an entitiy if for no other reason than "a mage did it". I'd be the first guy to try to make it...

Nameless wrote:

Krome wrote:

I grew up in Texas, and we were pretty much intollerant of everyone. You had Texans and you had foreigners, like those damned Americans...

If you weren't a Texan, or had the good sense to move there, you were a foreigner.

I know what you mean about this. Where I'm from (Northern Ontario), people believe that if you're not of European descent, then you don't belong in Canada. The amount of prejudice I've seen boggles the mind sometimes.

Hot topics right now are immigrants from the Middle East. For some reason, they get on North Ontario's nerves, even though there are none around.

That's one nice thing of having moved to Ottawa, everyone's far more accepting here.

//Threadjack//

Sort of like the whole NAFTA thing... ok when was the last time you bought anything made in Mexico??? Last I checked China was not part of NAFT... Who cares about NAFTA?!?

//end threadjack//

still need more scantily clad females!

Krome I should've know you were a good ole Texas Dwarf! +1

James Jacobs wrote:

Coridan wrote:

You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.

I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.

The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.

SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!

That's something of a shame. I rather like the style of that illustration, and the general personality put forth for a few of the figures (notably the dwarf and gnome) really sort of give it some life. I understand that it's a bit stylized, but I somewhat like the style (not as a norm, but as part of a variety, I'm fine with it). I'm certainly okay with seeing newer art, but I do like that particular illustration a fair bit, so it wouldn't be *high* on my priorities list. Personally, I'd be more inclined to replace the illustration of Seoni in profile with her nipples protruding through her dress (Alpha 3 page 65). Unless it's really cold, it just feels unnecessary. I'm not opposed to the occasional titillating picture, but I prefer them to not be in that mode.

I personally love the nipples. LOL.

Tarren Dei wrote:

Khalarak wrote:

People, particularly barbaric people, fear those different than themselves.

Children fear those different from those they are familiar with, true, up until about the age of 8 when many grow up. Some don't. Those are called racists.

Khalarak wrote:

... Of all people, barbarians most clearly demonstrate pretty strict genetic trends; so tribes of 'black' barbarians from the jungle and 'white' barbarians from the glaciers make sense.

I think geographically isolated peoples would tend to be more phenotypically uniform.

Yes, they are called racists in modern society, when evidence of the harmlessness of others is readily available to anyone not actively ignoring it. We have whole organizations devoted to debunking racial distrust, and they have the internet, television, and radio to broadcast their messages. But this is assumed to be a pseudo-medieval world; individuals from more primitive cultures, and poorer individuals from advanced ones, generally speaking, are too busy working to grow up intellectually.

Nobles and such have sufficient education to realize that elves aren't evil fairies who want to steal your children and replace them with changelings, but the serfs working their land or cooking in their kitchens aren't going to have that opportunity. All they have to work with is stories of elven magic and that odd pointy-eared child who's taking so long to grow up in the next town over.

Moreover, Golarion is sufficiently dangerous that people have very good reasons to be distrustful of outsiders. The Chelish traffic with devils, Varisian Sczarni rob and murder, elves cut down those who trespass on their lands; Not all of them, certainly, but enough to matter. A farmer in Taldor has every reason to be suspicious of a traveler from Cheliax, lest his soul or property be forfeit. Even discounting dangers from ordinary people, mad wizards walk around wearing harmless faces and monsters capable of taking on all manner...

Interesting...

Midnight-v wrote:

Worf? Lets not start talking about worf. Should I then expand the definition to include obvious deformities and grizzly deaths?
Seriously though... You have me at a disadvantage, I skipped Ds9 and firefly. But for worf there's cripple jordy.
Again I'm just asking for a black male iconic. If its a non-issue like everyone tries to make it then why not?
So... Barack obama is a shoanti along with tiger woods and mariah carey, nicole richie ad the rock?

*Throws up hands*
To hell with it. I give up. *sigh*
pass me that white bread...please.

I think you’re being a little disingenuous in implying that the Paizo iconics are “whitebread”. Let’s take a look at the human ones – this is my take on how their appearance relates to real world ethnicities – others may of course disagree or have their own take:

Valeros: sort of Mediterranean looking
Seoni: “exotic” looking – maybe vaguely Eastern European in appearance, apart from the hair colour?
Kyra: Middle Eastern appearance
Ezran: Caucasian / Nordic looking
Seelah: Black / Ethnic African in appearance
Sajan: Indian or central Asian in appearance
Amiri: Caucasian in appearance

That’s a pretty good mix, but before you start worrying too much that there is no black man, there are several other large real world groups missing too; far east Asian, Polynesian, native American (north or south) and lots of others.

But nor do I think it is Paizo’s responsibility to include someone of every conceivable human ethnicity (of both genders). To do so would a) be a logistical nightmare, b) risk descending into tokenism and c) by implication tend to tie Golarion’s people too closely to real world ethnicities and nationalities, something that Paizo has been at pains to avoid since the beginning.

I did not insinuate anything about paizo or its employees, i've gave up on arguing with racists, I figure you'll always been there as will your hate/fear of Black men. Thats generic "you" by the way not the specific "You" in this instance.

Now YOU obviously haven't read the thread or ignore key parts of my statements the address was made that it is an "easy" out on the diversity scale to use a black woman, than a black man. Further its a known out. Thats not a slight against paizo who don't have any black dudes working in the design dept, cause really I'm sure they prolly don't know that.
You also want to play the diversity game, which I've explained is a common way to cirumvent the idea of a black male, typically trotted out by closet racists... I said that before anyone even made the argument you just made.
Finally, you are white right? You assume I'm black most likely because of the strength of my aruguments (though thats more about me being on vacation than anything, but lets assume for a second that I am.
Now I'm the black man arguing that his race is misrepresented/underrepresented.
Let the Polynesians then speak for themselves and native americans then speak for themselves. Anyone?
Because only white people make the argument "Well why the black man? Why not a hispanic" because at root even today many whites are afraid of blacks... which you know is kinda stupid what with the cultural problems they seem to have but in brief I'd like to direct you to this. (You specific if you feel I'm call you a racists which I'm not mind you I'm just stating you're using an oft trotted out racist argument) There is a different level of racism faced daily by those dudes.
Just so you understand what I mean.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HRfjLfyXYlA&feature=related
this one too...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9ZUHCLtnYFQ&feature=related
Misplaced fear. Seriously.

Coridan wrote:

You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.

I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.

The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.

SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!

Uh-huh Thank you editor in chief!

Midnight-v wrote:

However, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they do not represent 50% of the race or gender that they belong to do they?

You're claiming that half the black people in comics, scifi, and fantasy have metal arms?

Lordie.

I can't even get started on the counter examples for THAT one. But just for B5, Firefly, DS9 here's some I can recall with no robotic limbs - Sisko, Benjamin, Worf, Doctor Franklin, Book, the assassin in the movie, Jason Ironheart. Not finding any artificial-limbed black characters on those shows, but quite possible I've missed some.

I appreciate that making a list of black people with cybernetic limbs can make it SEEM like it happens all the time, but as I demonstrated with my brainstormed list (not anywhere near an exhaustive one), there's an ample number of non-black limb replacements out there too.

Interesting note on Theros - my mental picture of his art is apparently not matching the books. Can't be bothered to look for the picture I recall, tho.

I wouldn't object to the idea that scifi (and fantasy, and comics) has been very white-male centric. It's an issue I have with the genre myself. I just don't think your artifical limb thesis holds water.

Russ Taylor... are you in texas right now? I might know you! LOL.

Ahh... okay here's the link to theros http://step.polymtl.ca/~coyote/picturesd/dragnlnc/forging.jpg
but you can do an image search.
Worf? Lets not start talking about worf. Should I then expand the definition to include obvious deformities and grizzly deaths?
Seriously though... You have me at a disadvantage, I skipped Ds9 and firefly. But for worf there's cripple jordy.
Again I'm just asking for a black male iconic. If its a non-issue like everyone tries to make it then why not?
So... Barack obama is a shoanti along with tiger woods and mariah carey, nicole richie ad the rock?

*Throws up hands*
To hell with it. I give up. *sigh*
pass me that white bread...please.

My apologies, Midnight-v, I'm not trying to be hostile either.

1. Hogarth pretty much covered this in his reply.
2. The bionic arm. Cable, Luke Skywalker, Darth Vader, Steve Austin, Ash Williams...it's not just black males. Then there is Red Falcon, Hancock, Black Panther, Morpheus, Blade, Mace Windu, Frozone, Lando, Sisko, Tuvok... I just don't see the issue.
3. I could be wrong about this but the U.S. census has the person mark a box to show their ethnicity, it doesn't just go by a last name such as Gonzalez.
4. I'm not acting like I have a problem, you're basically tagging me (and anyone else who raises a question) as against the issue.

Let me do this backwards as it more poignant.

4. I'm sorry for tagging you. Its not my intent, nor anyone else who disagree's I'm not a facist or anything. I don't like my idea being dismissed out of hand is all. Your orignal post came down like 30 seconds after mine. To me it seem that "it's not an issue" came out of your mouth before the issue ever got resolved.

3. About the census, the problem with that is that "MOST" people haven't actually read the census report. Have you? Most people heard a report on several news reports and the associated press that stated that Gonzales had replaced smith as the most common name in America. So we can go and pull the census reports out if you have the effort in you. Futher, in other places like Puerto rico and south america it is highly frowned upon to be considered "black" most blacks from there want to be considered "Hispanic" so thats what the mark down.

2. The bionic arm.
Okay, 1/2 of all black heroes are represented with a bionic arm or other part.
Take all white chracters. Imagine that for a second. ... ....
this might take a sec...
.... A - Z
Now make 50% them bionic. Do you see that? You turn on star trek and 50% of the crew are borg. You turn on star wars and 1/2 of everybody has cybernetic parts. Its ridiculous. And it's real.
Its not like I'm saying ONLY black people get the bionic parts but that the bionic dudes make up a disproportionate chunk of them.
Further some of those characters are side kicks and magical negros.
Hancock started all this with the whole thing in my universe with the whole "he did not kiss Charlize Theron" he even says he does but he doesn't he gets thrown through an building and a refigerator before it happens apparently.

1. How are those spells expensive? Wizards will be going everywhere doing everything at any time. Now only 2% of adventures are going to have the capability to do that but you live in that circle of people and you are going to encounter them. Especially when there are only so many ancient prophesies and super weapons out there.

To a degree I do feel like you're acting as if you have a problem. I'm not saying you do. I'd already outlined an attack for an argument you chose to use. Again I apologize I dont' think you some kinda Klansman or a nazi or anything like that. Most of your ideas I'm sure are good. However, I say are you for or against a black male non-stereotypical hero?

Coridan wrote:

You guys REALLY need a new race line-up for the final PHB. The one from from RotRL is a bit too...artistic (my opinions on it are in another thread, not going to restate them). I'd love to see the art style/artist who did Shalelu's pic in PF3 do the lineup.

I agree completely. I still like the original one, but it doesn't fit the overall style of what we've settled into for Pathfinder in the year since we originally ordered that illustration. We just haven't had a good place to order a replacement illo yet... the Beta had an Art Budget of Zero Bucks so that wasn't happening.

The Hardcover Campaign Setting has face illustrations for the races, but that's not the same as a lineup shot.

SO. Chances are pretty good, as a result, that you'll see a new lineup in the final RPG book next year. No promises, but if we even only have one new piece of artwork in there, that's the one I'll be gunning for a replacement for!

James Jacobs, wow I'm so stupid, the editor in chief I should have noticed that before. I should go back and re-read your posts what do you think about it? I wasn't sure if this was in response to the Black Man or the dwarf. So I just wonder, it maybe too politically charged now... *sigh*

Midnight-v wrote:

p.s. Callous Jack why are you so against the idea?

Who said I was against anything? Some of you points are not very well thought out (or typed out) as I had no idea what you were meaning in regards to Hispanic priest in Ireland or the bionic arm issue, which is a perfect case of a mountain made from a molehill btw. I do find it hypocritical that you basically dismiss the Asian stereotypes because the black man seems to have some sort of monopoly on discrimination. Not to mention that Hispanics technically are the largest ethnicity in America now and they could use the same complaints. Is there anything at all representing them in Golarion?

I have no problem with a black male iconic, just please stop acting like they and they alone deserve the spotlight.

*sigh* Okay, maybe I haven't been clear, let me address your points, as I'm really not trying to be hostile but don't appreciate being called a hypocrite either.

4. Callous Jack does not have a problem with a black male iconic.
Okay, stop acting like you do, then. You make that statement in the same statement as "lets use hispanics, they have a bigger claim" thats hypocritical and an attempt to cloud the issue.

5. I'm not saying Black men have a monopoly on discrimination, I'm a sociology major and a Deputy sheriff in Tx I know a LOT about the subject of discrimination from the sheer number of times I've been accused of it. I do however know right from wrong and all the things I've said are valid. They do avoid using the black male heros, and anytime you bring it up people do what you're doing to block the thought so there its on the table. I leave it in paizo's hands.

Gailbraithe wrote:

Like think of the movie Transformers. Can you imagine that being made with a black lead, in the role that Shia LeBouf played? It's unlikely at best, because fear that audiences won't identify with the character.

Not a good example, people went to see the robots, not Shia.

It's funny, I see the point being made but doesn't everyone get stereotyped? How about Asian men? How many movies can you think of with an Asian lead that did not involve martial arts or samurai? My Asian friend always gripes about that.
Heck, I'm sick of Irish characters always being drunks in so many shows and movies.

So am I, in that case you're right. However, those things are NOT the biggest taboo, the black man is... Its not right when it happens to any ethnic group. I got sick of the black dude dying first and the irish (dwarven) drunk right about the same time actually.

Roy being the best example of what we need. Wait they killed him too didn't they. I can't wait to see how he comes back. -M

p.s. Callous Jack why are you so against the idea?
Do NOT want a black male Hero in pathfinder?
Do you think I and the people who agree with me are just reading to much into the facts? The whole armed man thing and what not?

p.p.s. Where's Eric Mona?

p.p.p.s Ethnic caucasians are ethnics too, and boy do we overlook that.
people use ethinic as "urban" or non white american and thats wrong but that hass nothing to do with the overall problem, they'd just find another word...

Midnight-v wrote:

I read that they intended to kill barret in FF, I mean instead of tifa. Not only that but that to most of the people in the project it was a forgone conclusion. There were like "so how does barret die?" and the head creator was like "What? Barret doesn't die, tifa dies"
Rest of cast "HUH?"

Unless they did a George Lucas on FF7 since I played it, Tifa doesn't die either. Aeris does.

Granted, that was, what, 15 years ago? Amazing I still remember those names, actually...

Thanks to the gentle giant.

to Bolongo... HEY! Yah got me. It was a long time ago wasnt' it *weep* lol

Yeah I trust paizo to do it right as well, IF THEY WERE TO DO IT,but I'm just didn't think they were aware of it. The "black woman" option is just a good way of saying the "black man" is unacceptable in these types of situations.

Its so bad to ask what I'm asking that people get infuriated when ever it gets brought up, the change the subject and avoid the issue but we do live in a "women as objects" society so making a black male there threatens the heirarchy that's why the Black sorcerer (metal arm and all) was such a shock and a pleasant one.
Its just sad is all, maybe since paizo is the new D&D they'll make a stand. *shrug* maybe I'm asking to much.

Gailbraithe wrote:

If Paizo does do more iconics, I'd like to see a couple of black men. And no fast-talking rogues! Wizards and fighters.

I was thinking about what class would be beneficial and honestly every single one can be looked at as a stereotype.

Wizard=magical negro
Fighter=thug with weapon
Rogue=fast talking con artist
Barbarian=inferior race
Bard=Micahel Jackson
Cleric=Jeremiah Wright
Paladin=terrorists

ok maybe druid, monk, ranger, sorcerer safest I can think of.

Funny.

However, despite your implication that "you can't make anybody happy" I'm sure as long as you didn't go into the more obvious sterotypes the existance would be enough.

I kept meaning to mention Roy kept getting side tracked.
Thank you Gailbraithe, Amen!

I don't think that's what he was saying.

If you're playing a campaign among the pale Snow Barbarians of the northern wastes, there's no point in insisting on having a dark-skinned character in your party for diversity's sake (although it might be interesting to have one).

Similarly, if you're playing a campaign among the dark-skinned warriors of the equatorial plains, there's no point in insisting on having a lily-white character in your party for diversity's sake (although again it might be interesting to have one).

If you're playing in a country that's a crossroads of different north-south trade routes and is melting pot of cultures and races (say), it makes sense to see a party of mixed origins, naturally.

Magic. There's magic.

Anyone interested should check out Nyambe: African Adventures by Atlas Games and Svimohzia: The Ancient Isle for Kingdoms of Kalamar for some great d20 African-themed fantasy stuff. Both present lands diverse in culture and degrees of "civilization," plus varied humans and humanoids of both sexes in all roles, most of whom (but not all) have dark skin. The white folk who do show up tend to be visitors or have some other reason for being there, but they are few and far between. Both have great artwork, too.

So... go back to africa in other words, right? I don't quite think thats the answer, now I'm kidding of course, and thanks but to a degree it's like the african version oriental adventures, yeah?

The Drizzt thing got me thinking How many types of elf are there in pathfinder? The are 3 in fourth ed.

Why I am thinking of the convention panel from Chasing Amy right now?

"What's a Nubian?"

I'm going to risk some flame and just point out that Drizzt is black.. :)

This thread is officially MADE OF WIN!

The metal arm critique seems pretty silly. What about Steve Austin, the various bionic women, the various terminators (those could actually use some racial diversity), Theros Ironfield, Darth Vader, Luke and pre-vader Anakin (hands only), Forge (edit: hand only), Commander Steel, Metallo, the cyborg superman, the major from Ghost in the Shell, Cable, Donald Pierce (X-man villain), and others?

Men(and women) with metal arms are a comic, fantasy and scifi staple, not a "role for the black guy".

Will Smith's character from I,robot

Okay and most of those people you listed are full conversion cyborgs and androids.

However, MORE IMPORTANTLY, they do not represent 50% of the race or gender that they belong to do they?

edit: Theros Ironfield was a black character also. Please don't as it most peoples natural inclination to dismiss what I say as out of hand. Just consider it for a second before you decide to oppose the idea or call it a silly thought.

Samuel Weiss wrote:

Howard was always more interested in portraying the corruption of "civilized" men as the worst threat, and they were inevitably white European types, constantly betraying each other for some perceived advantage.

Like most of the degenerates in this thread who plainly demonstrated how perversely they get off by "murdering the White guy" in art. Guess Howard was right about civilized people "betraying each other for some perceived advantage ($$$) as this thread amply demonstrates. Further, if people do not identify with their particular ethnicity or Gender then why do people claim to feel excluded if their particular group is not depicted on the cover art?

Not sure what point you're trying to make, I think you might have missed a word or something in there. Please redefine. It seems as if you're saying that you agree with the Capt. Whitebread idea. I'm not sure what you mean exactly, sorry. Though, it's not so much "murder the white guy as murder the pc that you were forced to include and thus by proxy the marketing guys idea.

To the poster who responded to the topic of the black male lead.
I'm sorry we misunderstood each other, and began discussing two different things.
Okay, Okay, Blade is kinda portrayed as a psycho, but again I'll give you blade. Mace is not the lead, The Rock is too vague as an example because he's done many roles so I'm not certain to which you're refering but I'm certain that he's not the "Star hero" in the majority of his role.
Further I'm not entirely sure if he's black, not saying he's not just that I'm not completly familiar with him. I would think he's hispanic or pacific islander maybe, to look at him.
Shaft is from the blaxplotiation era, reimagined by black directors and producer and thats like saying "There are black leads in all of spike lee's or any made-by-black-people movies."
Axel Foley, okay I'll reluctantly give you axel, though a part of me wants to then say were talking about hero's and there's a huge difference between my list and yours.
Genre.

Finally I dont' expect paizo to fix all the wrongs of society, I'm just pointing out that its not really diverse if you're using the same acceptable tactics as everyone esle.

I think they simply changed this because it was an added bane for the already beleagured melee classes.
Someone above said, "We'd hand it over to the spellcasters" which is the most common thing for somthing with damage reduction "You're not getting past this".
Actually something lik that should lead to the golfbag syndrom really if you think about it. Unless you're playing a warrior capable of throwing down 30 + points of dmg per lick (not unheard of I suppose) You're getting boned at 10th unless you can bypass
Dr Something/10
I think thats were golems start showing up. Dr 10/adamantine bludgen
or some such. So yeah its a raw deal for those engaging in fisticuffs and what not. ImHo
Props to Paizo for fixing it (and I hold my props tightly)

Midnight-v wrote:

*snip*

How about Sheriff Hemlock in RotRL?

Ahh but he's not an Iconic is he?

Good catch though.

oh and DS9 what is that? Deep space 9?

What about DS9?
Its irrelvant to the point, that non one armed men exist, the fact that about have the black guys really are depicted as having one arm is pretty ridiculous.
I read that they intended to kill barret in FF, I mean instead of tifa. Not only that but that to most of the people in the project it was a forgone conclusion. There were like "so how does barret die?" and the head creator was like "What? Barret doesn't die, tifa dies"
Rest of cast "HUH?"
So I'm just saying there are shennigans occuring on some large scale.

Besides, ask yourself, why do you fight against the idea so strongly?
Why all the resitance to an idea paizo will probbably just ignore anyway?
If what really matter is the character sheet and not the color of the pc?

Edit: Those halfing aren't black.LOL!

What about Blade, Axel Foley, the Rock, Shaft, Mace Windu...

Are you saying that in response to the "guy with the metal arm?"

1. I was just saying I'd never noticed the one-armed phenomenom.
2. Alex Foley, The rock, and Shaft, are niether "fantasy" heroes
nor sci-fi heroes why would they have a metal arm? What is this commentary supposed to mean?
3. SHAFT? ARE YOU SERIOUS!
4. Mace Windu. "Every time we start talking bout this some "white boy" wanna quote the holy trilogy!"- cookies anyone?
Okay I'll give you Mace windu though about mace windu from wiki:
Mace Windu is one of the earliest named and created characters in Star Wars history, being the narrator of the original 1973 drafts of the original Star Wars film (later named Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope).[1] Through the process of redrafting and copyediting, his character was removed from the original film and its two successors, however he was reintroduced in 1994 when George Lucas began writing the Star Wars prequel trilogy.
When series creator George Lucas offered Samuel L. Jackson the role of Mace Windu, Jackson signed on, but with certain stipulations on the portrayal of his character. One of the conditions was that his character dies in a spectacular death, rather than be killed off "like some punk."[citation needed]

5. I'll give you blade also. However, nothing on your small list makes it so the "One armed, black guy" doesn't exist it's like 50% of the field, are one armed or sidekicks or both.

I personally would be cool with a soceror, but I been reading all morning and some of these site stated that the majority of black man in hollywood is the "Thug" and the "Magical-negro" (can I say that I'm quoting) ala Bagger Vance and The big guy from the green mile, who exist only to show the white male lead the way.

So I'm just laying it out there, make a black male lead, Iconic, whatever.
If not you're skirting the issue. Don't make it a woman or an east indian or make him gay or crippled or whatever just the black guy who can be the main character.
Chanllenge.
What say you?

Set wrote:

An Iconic Gnoll Druid (with Dire Hyena companion) would rock my world!

Perhaps as part of an all 'humanoid' party.

Hobgoblin chain-Fighter
Goblin Wizard
Bugbear Rogue
Kobold Cleric
Gnoll Druid
Orc Monk-grapple-and-bite specialist

I would add a...

Lizardfolk ranger - wielding a trident and kukri with a Constrictor or Viper for an animal companion.

Troglodyte barbarian - attitude, aroma, and a greatclub... when the enemy is doubled over retching from the stench, he bashes in their brains.

What for a sorcerer, though?

How about uhmm...

A Black "MAN" ...
I remember when I first saw that black man spellcaster in dungeon, my exact words were "Whoa!" I called my brother and told him he responds "Seriously, a black man? Are you sure? Not Arabic or East indian? Wow, those must have slipped that in past Wotc."

I challange Paizo.
If you really want to say something about diversity use a Black male lead. What we talked about in sociology class yesterday was (get this) "Hancock" and the non-existant kiss between Charlize Thereon and Will Smith, which subsequently lead to one of those class sessions where lots of people are shouting.
Now,a fter reading this thread leads me to a shocking conclusion, we don't use "Black" males. There's no black male leads...
One of the guys in class discussed how it takes no courage to use the black female, because we live in a white patriarchal society (still), and she poses no threat to white supremacy, and thus this is why you'll see people using a black female to achieve thier affimitive action roles but never a black male.
So I went to my space and Im'd some folks to make sure I wasn't buying into some crack pot conspiricy mess, and I was right that there's not really black male leads or iconics....
"Except for the guy with the metal Arm?"
I said "Huh?"
my friend (Who is hispanic) says "They in comics and in video games use the black guy with the metal arm all the time. You never noticed? LOL"
I've started counting.
Jax. from MK.
Barret.
Chad from Bleach.
Cyborg from Teen Titans.
Gauntlet from The Initiative.
...And the dungeon sorceror.
I'm not sure what to make of that except....

Paizo, use a ,Black Male ICONIC, for great justice.
*sigh* but its too late isn't it.

edit: It'd be more brave to give him a sword and let him be the dashing swordsman.
Paladin or fighter. I'd suggest barbarian, but I'm sure that'd be uhm... misconstrued somehow.

I'd like to see the Two handed Axeman supported. I mentioned it in the other thread. ...
It's overlooked.

Hey for the record... this design makes into 3.MV
I'm just redoing a version of D&D and having it bound and your version of the fighter is the version I'm going to use. Along with OnewingedAngels rebalanced paladin and franks sorcerer fix from these boards. If you want somthing done right ... etc etc..
I'm gonna have one professionally bound a month and give them away to my friends... It should be like the Srd with all the changes I deem needed for 3.5 which is what the paizo guys basically did and frankly though I'll never have the market they have, I'm pretty sure I can do just as good a job. . . or better...
If this should come to pass I'll track you down and send you a copy.
Thanks SQ. Happy gaming.
M_v

Shameless bump

bump

Shouldn't killing mages be the barbarians thing? Old school UA stlye... forsaker style?
*says a quick prayer*

The Rebalanced Paladin
By one winged angel
Hit Die: d10
Base
Attack Fort Ref Will
Level Bonus Save Save Save Special
1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/encounter
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Divine Grace, Lay on Hands
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Hero's Courage
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Turn Undead
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Smite Evil 2/encounter, specialization
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Panacean Touch
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Bonus Feat
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Aura of Devotion
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Revitalizing Touch
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Smite Evil 3/encounter
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Vigilance
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Refreshing Touch
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Aura of Resolve
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus Feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Smite Evil 4/Encounter
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Break Enchantment
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Constant Vigilance
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Aura of Faith
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Energizing Touch
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Smite Evil 5/Encounter,

emphasis mine...

here's a link to the rest but the relavent part is bolded...

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045

Wow... +1

+1 to the above poster... that is so right.

Beautiful...

One not though... Mr.B has been pretty straight up about fighters not getting perception.

The rest of it seems great. This is the fighter I always wanted...
it also should appease those that say the fighter should be useful and not magical
... I'm told though that the fighter has to stay generic too though and what would an archer fighter gain from this?

Seriously... a ranger with... An AXE.

I've always remebered little red riding hood was saved by a damn "woodsman" with a itch on for lycantrhropes.

Ranger axeman please. Course that not really back compatable supported but an add on falls in to the category still right?

Most SoDs toned down in power to being massive damage effects. Its good for the game.

Everything except this ^^^ Trip, and the nuclear bard.

1. Giving a reason to love the half-orc again!
2. Soreror's ... Sir, it really is a brilliant design.

For once Squirrellord and I disagree...

In fact I directly oppose that last statment, based on one point of your statment...
Warriors suck so spellcasters shouldn't get nice things any more.
How about just giving warriors nice things as well instead?

(I'm still not good about the improved trip nerf either ... things like this and sod's lack of Sod'ing, I guess I just can't get behind, where was this poll you mentioned? What where the final results?

Backward compatible?
That really nocks the wind out of a lot of pc's.

Danm I might have to look for another 3.5 supporter I had such high hopes for Pf, I'm leaning towards the breaking point here first Improved trip now this, the bard who sings you to death and yet another monk that isn't incredibly "good" at anything it's all getting very frustrating.

plus there weren't many other options.
But yeah +1

1. SqLord. I find these tests interesting.

2. I've been waiting for the detractors of this test model to post thier results using the "group" model. Oddly they don't, its annoying, maybe thier right maybe SqL's right but they aren't DOING anything to prove or disprove thier point. So its just pointless hatred directed at SqL, who's at least doing some work under "some" model. Which is cool cause I feel like I'm getting something out of it. I was reading the Lords of Madness book and it had a encoutner chart that was like heroic vs horrific encounters and where they should occur at which level in the campaign/adventure.
Between how thats written and what The op is suggesting, these are "boss fights" which I find it useful to see how classes perform in said cirumstances.

3. Seriously, posts like "Your testing style is stupid, you results are boring" are just trolling. Please dont' troll here, it's disrupting the testing.

1 The post about a rage power that gives spell resistance is good but a smart wizard knows about spell resistance and will just acid fog you or something... really spell resistance isn't a bad a deteriment to "good" wizards as advertised
I have a few barbarian suggestions...
Over on the charops boards I write the consolidated Barbarians handbook along with zendu...
This probbably goes in a different thread but... basically,
1. the barbarians shuold not have to pay to maintain thier rage. Use the origianal rage and add rage points...
So you can then have a rage power like
Extend rage: 2 rp your rage lasts an additional round you may use this anytime your rage would end.

but thats just part of the problem.

A couple more.
Ignorance: “He is a barbarian, and thus thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature”
12 RP, Barbarian may ignore any spell effects ongoing or cast at him until the start of his next turn, *he recieves a will save to treat any summoned or gated creature and its effects as thought they were summoned by the shadow conjuration spell
(Unlike spell resitance this or a similar wording would actually DO something about forcecage and the likes)
Alternatively and proabbably more palettable to some would be use this ability to treat any spell effect you encounter as "Will negates" but only for the barbarian.

Beligerance:
"Why do you still stand! Kneel, kneel before your king!" Aeon glanced down at his party kneeling at his side, Pssting him or tugging at his pant leg. He the leveled a steely eyed glance around the audience chamber, leveled staring hard at the king. "Kneel in the prescence of lowlanders? and spit in the direction of the High Protector who had been shouting orders at him. "No."
6 rage points
(ex) All opponents with an intelligence score within a 30 foot radius must make a will save or are forced spend thier next action attacking the barbarian.(this may be with spells or whatever attack is standard for that opponent) You may spend 3 rp points each round to extend this ability for another round. The opponents are allowed a new saving throw each round to end this effect.

^^^So you've decided to harass that minority into submission.^^^
If you really feel the way you do, and aren't just trolling up an archaic discussion that you had with a banned poster. I would love to see some of you playtest results. Aside from that though I feel like you're trying really hard to harrangle and argument out of that dude.
Cause basically you're trying to say "Stop talking about you're stupid CR playtesting" and since you're doing it in a thread that is about just that, you may have well showed up here just to antagoize. Why not just let these people phrase thier argument, and you phrase yours... in another thread perhaps?
I actually do want to know the answer to this question, because its valid, even if his response is something like oh i don't know,
Controler, striker, buffer...etc...
So I can add to my discussion with my players of, these are the major changes, this is what the classes are supposed to be doing "now".
This is why we should all purchase this product instead of 4.0

Wow... this is amazing, really solid stuff.

M

^^^ seriously, WTF^^^
Could you please argue about the build, or design... or something of more relavance to The Barbarian re-write, that this greek mythology tangent?
What would you do to fix the build, please? Not to fix SqL's logic...

Wow... this is amazing, incredibly good work.

M

Wow... thats really not cool, Majuba. Very acerbic.
You tell him to leave and insult him because his opinion and experience run counter to yours?
Even if he's incorrect in his analysis of the game you're making yourself the bad guy.

Its funny, are there actually any design statment for classes anywhere??
Where does this idea come from? When Will Jason appear!
Stay tuned....

there were actually 3 gorgons (ie. Medusae.)
In other news I wish I'd played diablo now.

Okay so when are you gonna give play test results for this. Hopefully we can all say that this change is universally "Good" and it makes it into pathfinder. I had been thinking about this since the other thread and what I realize is the Rage Point barbarian is some what a psiwar.
Which is great because many feel that the psiwar is one of the better designed classes in existance.

In the end I don't care who came up with it, I just wonder will any change that we make on these boards be added to the final version or even the next trial? I wonder what the odds are...
hmmm...