Makarnak's page

This is a can of worms from way back. In an earlier edition (first or second), it stated something that is obvious, but can make life difficult for GMs and players alike.

Invisibility is an Illusion spell. It creates a false perception.

Illusion spells can be disbelieved. As the caster, you automatically know that the spell is an illusion and false, therefore you disbelieve it automatically and fundamentally. It doesn't mean that anyone else does.

Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.

A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.

A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. In fact, by this, the caster's friends if they have time to be convinced could make their saves and allow the caster to remain visible to them, but invisible to enemies.

Because completely invisible (non-illusory) spells and effect exist, and unless the perceiver has a chance to 'study it carefully or interact in some fashion' which is not common in combat, invisibility should work just fine in other respects.

I'm glad to see the PRD backs up this old ruling, but without the 'someone's invisible? I'll disbelieve!' game breaker in the old days.

Hope that helps.

Drejk wrote:

I am not quite sure about it, but I think that Dexterity penalty applies to AC even when flat-footed - only positive modifier is negated while losing Dexterity bonus due to your conditions.

No dex bonus is applied when flat footed, positive or negative. think of it like this, someone is so clumsy the fall into the weapon that is swinging at them instead of dodging, but when flat footed they aren't given the chance to react. Even if there reaction would leave them worse off.

Actually, there is no 'negative bonus.' It's interesting and I didn't realize it, but this is actually spelled out explicitly for ability scores in the text (from the PRD, under ability scores, emphasis mine):

Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty.

Under combat, Armor Class, there's this tidbit:

Sometimes you can't use your Dexterity bonus (if you have one). If you can't react to a blow, you can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC. If you don't have a Dexterity bonus, your AC does not change.

Hence, you lose your dexterity bonus when surprised, but you do not lose your dexterity penalty. So, a -1 for a 9 dex means a -1 even if surprised.

This is pretty much how it's always been in D&D, a bad Dex means a low AC, even if you're surprised.