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investigators to great damage as long as you don't dump your combat powers. Personally one of my fav classes

Bard has a few archetypes that can make for a good combatant, but they make him selfish, aka, his inspire courage is now just for him but better. Even the base though can do better in combat than most give credit for.

Any good suggestion builds or examples? I'd love to see how the Investigator, Inquisitor, and Bard compare among each other. Would love feat suggestions and etc also if there's any stuff that I should highly consider.

Spellbinder and Sword Binder are two different things. Sword Binder at least makes more sense.

Sword Binder definitely requires a sword, and a dagger is not a sword.

Personally, I still don't see it being all that effective, and I wouldn't really consider it much of a 'gish' build. A +4 weapon would be over a third of a characters expected wealth at level 11, possible, but somewhat expensive. Alternately any wizard could purchase a couple lesser and standard reach metamagic rods for that price if they were that concerned about delivering touch spells at range.

Magus is a lot more built for melee. First off, with spell strike you get to hit with weapon damage and the spell damage, so you are actually fighting, not just using a special effect to deliver a touch spell. Secondly, you get spell combat, which lets you take a full attack and cast a spell in the same round. Third, with the ability to be armored you have considerably better defense than a wizard. Finally, you are 3/4 not 1/2 BAB so you are much more competent in melee. Typically, a Magus can hit just fine between their BAB and arcane pool enhancing their weapon, but their are magus arcana that can help out with accuracy as well. Of course they are not 9-level casters and if you want to cast spells, not really gish a wizard is superior. I wouldn't recommend the Sword binder from a mechanical perspective, but if you love the flavor it is certainly workable, just not optimal compared to other options.

Given what you want your character to do though, I'd actually recommend you take a look at the Inquisitor class. It is divine, not arcane magic but they get good skill points and have the skills you are looking for as class skills. The divine nature melds well with wanting diety focused character anyway, and their ability to add bane to attacks means your weapon damage dice being lower isn't really a problem. If you want an even more 'rogue' feel, Sanctified Slayer does that pretty well and is considered a pretty good archetype....

Thank you for the detailed response! This really has me considering some alternatives that I was overseeing. My character concept is a crazed rogue'ish character that uses trickery, deception, and the ability to melt someone once they've ignored me as a threat.

Considering Inquisitor, Investigator, and Bard now as they are all good skill monkey options. Can Bard or Investigator nova/burst damage decently or just Inquisitor? I'm definitely curious about these options and would love some build suggestions! :)

If you want a backup dagger like weapon as a mage, you could do sorcerer and take divine fighting technique (desna's shooting star). You can do the seeker archetype for disable device.

Desna's Shooting Star is unfortunately not legal for PFS. So I'm down to vanilla Magus or Blade Adept arcanist with 1 lvl dip Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and rest EK? Out of those two what are people's thoughts here?

*Bump for daytime crowd* Would love to hear some suggestions on my last post or if Blade Adept with 1 level dip into Inspired Blade Swashbuckler and then into Eldritch Knight would be a better idea?

How are you planning on being an effective melee combatant with a 1/2 BAB class using just a dagger?

Wizards are powerful, but not as a Gish without some serious work. Magus is built to be a Gish.

If you want to Gish, be a Magus.

Also, why do you want to wield a dagger? It is unlikely to be the best choice for this character.

Sword Binder - "Sword of the Mage": At 5th level you use Hand of the Apprentice but with all bonuses that apply to the weapon. I don't think a Dagger will qualify as a "Sword" so I'd be stuck picking a different weapon. But here's an example at 5th level +2BAB +5int +1weapon +1pbshot +1wfocus +2deific obedience:pharasma = +12 to touch based AC. At 11th level lets assume a +4 weapon, and 24int: +5BAB +7int +4weapon +1pbshot +1wfocus +2deific obedience:pharasma = +20 to touch based AC. At 8th level you could choose to make a ranged attack instead to apply weapon damage but that would be situational based on what you're fighting and if it's worth it. A +10 to touch AC at 5th level or +18 to touch AC at 11th level is plenty. Sword Binder would definitely be more of a ranged attack character though. At 11th level that would be 12 uses a day of HotA which is more than enough.

Magus is definitely built more for melee. It just seems that the Sword Binder is really similar except it excels at range, and swaps the benefits of the Spell Recall with Arcane Pool for a better spell progression?

The idea of the dagger was moreso for a "Rogue" feel and the Pharasma Deific Obedience bonus for +2atk, which would help either a Magus or Sword Binder land their attacks more easily. It's definitely one of the weakest weapons to use though, but would rather have the rogue flavor over the ultimate damage weapon.
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Anyone have some thoughts on these two archetypes? There's also the Eldritch Scoundrel but it's spell progression isn't as good as the Sword Binder and it can't cast and attack in the same round. Whatever build is taken, I'd like to keep some Rogue-like flavor with high skill points and deception/infiltration spells.

The needs of the character I'm trying to create are:
* Stealth capabilities (spells are probably my best option here)
* High Bluff, Disguise, Intimidate, Sense Motive
* Some way to deal burst damage - I originally was leaning towards Unchained Rogue with sneak attack but figured an intensified shocking grasp or other spells would be more effective.
* flexibility vs Resistances or DR, also flexibility as a party member to cover a few different roles in the party as necessary (Playing PFS after all.)

*bump*

*bump for later crowd*

Also wondering what Magus archetypes are best...seems a lot lose some pretty important stuff and Bladebound doesn't allow a Dagger as an option (which I find ridiculous.)

I'm debating between making either a Spell Binder or Magus in PFS as a dagger wielding Gish. Spell Binder is 9th level spells whereas Magus has lower level spells but Arcane Pool? Can someone sell me on why I should play one over the other in PFS play between 1-12?

I'm playing in a West Marches style world using a 32pt buy system for character creation and Core races allowed only. Pretty much all official Paizo stuff is allowed but I've never made a Dragon Disciple and I'm wondering if this would be a good idea.

For simplicity sake I'm thinking either full Sorcerer or maybe a dip into a melee class for proficiencies but I'd like to try and keep my spell level high so I still have some decent spells to use.

I'm not sure of what bloodlines to take, if crossblooded is the way to go, or if I should be using Eldritch Heritage to pickup the Arcane bloodline or something else. I'm not too worried about being min/maxed as I don't want to break the world (if that's possible), but since I've never really played a sorcerer or a dragon disciple I could really use someone to cast guidance on this build for me. Appreciate any advice you guys could give! :)

I'm working on a build for an Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle with the Ascetic Mystery that pumps AC up extremely high and uses the Ascetic SpellStrike at level 9+. Could I get some good ideas for Wizard/Sorcerer spells that would be great to deliver through melee attacks?

The few I have in mind already in taking are Shocking Grasp, Scorching Ray (It's not melee but it gives me a ranged option), and Ghoul Touch. Not sure if there's better choices or what to take after 2nd level spells.

What would be your best suggestion for an Improved Ki Throw build with some versatility beyond just tripping? I think I want to run with tripping and throwing them into an adjacent square or into an adjacent enemy. Just don't want to be entirely useless vs flyers or monsters that can't be tripped.

Question: Does the Halfling Monk archetype "Underfoot Adept" that makes him act as a size larger than he is bypass the Ki Throw's rules of tripping someone your size or smaller?

You don't want the 8th level of maneuver master, because it makes all your maneuvers that round take a total of a -5 check, which is too heavy. I would skip greater grapple, you're not a tetori, so you will not be aiming to grapple, pin, tie up in a single round. Also, unlike a tetori, once you start grappling, you lose your ability to take AOOs. It may be good to grapple a single caster opponent you wish to neutralize.

Maneuver master is better then flowing monk imo, because of flurry of maneuvers. You get 1 extra maneuver per round. If you want to mimic the flowing monk's flatfooted, go for improved dirty tricks(if possible to upgrade - greater), and use dirty trick to blind. That will serve as flatfooted for most cases. It's more reliable, less AOO dependent, and most of all, does not allow a reflex save to negate (dragons, despite their size can have very good ref saves).

It will also give 50% miss chance(if you use dirty trick to blind) if that poor sop doesn't fix it up.

if I were doing halfling goliath druid, I would skip ki throw, and take powerful shape, so you count as huge in combat maneuvers(but needs druid 8). It negates the need to use ki(which you don't have anyway).

I've had thoughts of creating a combat maneuver character, but they nerfed the maneuver master flurry of maneuvers such that it could not be performed in armor. I was thinking of just dipping 2 levels of maneuver master, but lorewarden base, for that character - not to mention that the Pathfinder Society Field guide is no longer part of the core assumption (yes, I am ancient - there was a time where it was), and I don't own the said Field Guide.

Well I thought the Flowing Monk route would be a stronger candidate since it gets bonus AC per each enemy adjacent and Monk of the Sacred Mountain's +2 AC bonus from stationary, +1 natural armor, and free toughness. Maneuver Master can't combine with MotSM unfortunately.

Also figured the ability to trip after someone attacks me, then Vicious Stomp them which then causes them to be flat footed for my entire next round would be better. Plus Flowing Monk / MotSM doesn't give up Flurry of Blows, which Maneuver Master does. I get the benefits of MM but thinking Flowing Monk may be more fun and just all around stronger. Improved Ki Throw can go off the reactionary trip also, so when it's not even your turn you get a free Trip, Stomp, put them in another square and maybe into an adjacent enemy, and a free AoO from Greater Trip? Thinking that combo may be more powerful.

EDIT: Regardless of whether the flatfooted reflex save is successful or not, if the reactionary trip is successful then I'm moving them to a different position and possibly into another enemy, then Vicious Stomping. That's what I'm getting at by saying it seems better, since it's all happening outside of my normal turn.

*bump*

Yeah, you're right, the Goliath druid does seem to work a lot better than what I was originally thinking. You got me thinking though of a Judo throwing character though after checking Rowena's build.

What do you think of the two below?

or

Either of those would have to be Human for the bonus feat to fit everything in early and for Ki Throw to work. Was also thinking of combining Improved Ki Throw with Goliath Druid but that wouldn't work too well till like level 9 or 10.

Any thoughts / suggestions on the above builds? Would the regular Maneuver Master Judo build work better than the Flowing Monk Judo build? Would the Flowing Monk Judo build work better? It retains Flurry of Blows still and makes enemies Flat-Footed after Greater Trip / Vicious Stomp.

Do a No item please. Spending a +5 on your weapon, to me sounds unrealistic.

High levels its hard to get AOOs for movement as most creatures have 10 ft, or greater reach, so no point focusing on that. Also, what is your CMD for the purposes of tumbling past you?

Half orc would be probably have 10 +4 + 2 +2, + 18 for AOO totally gearless.

And would probably have the feats for greater trip, should you decide to fish for AOOs.

Solo tactics needs an ally next to you, which you may not have always. Escape Route and Valet familiar works better. I wouldn't usually be using it(take it like a man, man), but the purpose of the build was to do what your flowing monk could do.

Ugh, well I appreciate the Escape Route + Valet familiar combo but it's not something I'm going to use as it'll only make my local PFS GM's frown at me whenever I use that. I also wouldn't even feel comfortable using that method.

CMD wouldn't be as high as Half-Orc. It's not full bab and has -1 size penalty.

How about Combat Patrol + Power Attack + Pushing Assault? Could patrol an area, Power attack with AoO and instead of extra PA dmg choose to push them back. Guess I could go with a medium race (if I went with Half-Orc I'd have to take "Almost Human" trait and "Pass for Human" feat. That's how much I dislike playing a character that's called a half-orc. :P

How about 3 levels of Inquisitor for Solo Tactics to make Escape Route and maybe any other teamwork feats useable? I'd be more comfortable with that than the familiar workaround.

Your AOO is a +3 to hit, DC 13 reflex save to negate flatfooted. At the start. Maximum of DC 15 to negate.

For Redirection to work the monsters must threaten you, so your movement can only move them from next to you to 10 ft, which provokes. You can't reposition them from 10 ft to 15 ft because they start next to you.

Explain how you get a +19 to hit on your AOOs, and at what level you get it. Remember Longspears use your str to determine attack bonus and not dex.

Sorry, the +19 to hit on AoO's was for level 11. +8 Bab, +1 from Weapon Master, +1 from trait, +4 from Str (14str at 4th level & a +4str belt), and a +5 weapon which would be the main focus of my money spent in PFS. Going higher than 13str as a halfling has pretty bad returns, 17dex is pretty easy to obtain by only spending 7 points and is pretty useful all-around (initiative, reflex save, # of AoO's, etc). Oh, I also forgot the size bonus to hit, so it should be +20 to hit on AoO's at level 11.

Unbalancing Counter should be a DC 16 (10 + half my monk level, which is 3 + 3 wis mod using a +2wis headband). Enemies with high Reflex saves will pass that easy but others should have a decent chance of failure I'd think?

Half Orc Lorewarden:

Str 16, dex 14, con 14, int 14, wis 10, cha 10

Alternate traits: Sacred Tattoo
Traits: Reactionary, Fates favored

1) Lorewarden 1: Combat Reflexes, Power attack (to trip +4, Reposition +4)
2) Lorewarden 2: Combat Expertise (free feat), improved reposition (to trip +5, Reposition +7)
3) Lorewarden 3: Improved Trip (to trip +8, Reposition +8)
4) Tattoed Sorcerer 1: Tattoed familiar (valet archtype)
5) Lorewarden 4: Escape Route (Combat feat)

And at level 5, you can move around the battlefield without ever provoking movement for AOOs. Of course, your next few general feats are going to be nothing but iron will and improved iron will...)

Your AOO is a +3 to hit, DC 13 reflex save to negate flatfooted. Maximum of DC 15 to negate.

Lorewarden is pretty decent but the Familiar with the Teamwork feat seems pretty cheese. I couldn't see a GM allowing that unless you had your familiar out and as a target to get 1 shotted by enemies. Any other ideas to accomplish Gliding Steps?

The Lorewarden allows for way higher bonuses to Reposition. I guess the atk and damage output would be about the same? I guess you picked Half-Orc to make up for the lower Saves from not being a Halfling & Monk?

Has the following so far:
2) Ability to FoB with Longspear at 3rd level
1) AoO's make enemies flat footed till end of next turn, making Flurry of Blows easier to land (and helping allies).
3) Reflex to half 1 melee attack (costs 2 ki)
4) 1st 5ft movement doesn't provoke AoO's (costs 1 ki for all movement not to provoke AoO's) Gliding Steps allows me to get out of dangerous situations without eating a ton of AoO's or that 1 AoO that may possibly kill me.
5) Community domain - touch removes fatigued, shaken, and sickened conditions. (roughly 6 a day)
6) Tactics subdomain - roll x2 for initiative (roughly 6 a day)
7) 8th level (just an example) I should have AC 21 + 1 per enemy adjacent (roughly 22 or 23) without any Spells, Potions, or Gear, or using any Ki.
8) My AoO's should be at +19 to hit, DC 16 reflex save or be Flat Footed. My FoB's should be at +16/+16/+13, vs Flat Footed if Unbalancing Counter works.
9) Can make 5 AoO's a round, Lunge for 15ft reach while staying stationary to receive AC bonus.

I switched from Polearm Master to Weapon Master for the Fighter archetype, seems more useful. Not sure what I should go with for my last couple of feats. Maybe Power Attack + Pushing Assault? Could forgo Power Attack dmg to push enemies back out of range?

EDIT: Yeah, I noticed that also for Redirection. No Improved Trip or Improved Reposition.
Question: Reposition target must remain within my reach except final 5ft. If they are in melee and I'm equiped with a spear and beat them by more than 5 can I move them to 15ft? Since that's 5ft outside of my 10ft reach? Just curious. If so, then it may be worth finding a way to improve Reposition and using that to get enemies away from me to re-provoke and not be in full attack range.

Meh. Dc is 15 (ref) not to get sickened. If you want to inflict sickened, I suggest cruel enchant on weapons. Without agile maneuvers, you're at a BAB +1 to make whatever maneuvers you can think off. No weapon finesse(doesn't work with longspear), makes it even worse. You won't be able to hit a thing.

I suggest you stop trying to make it work on a monk chasis and try using a druid(if you're dead set on halfling) or a lorewarden instead.

NPCs are usually a few levels higher then you are to impress you with stuff that usually isn't possible. And they arent optimized, I ran a monk NPC challenge(off a PFS adventure) against a PC tetori. The PC tetori trounced him easily.

From my understanding the Redirection ability sickens if successful and also lets you use a reposition or trip attempt. Otherwise the 8th level improvement makes no sense in allowing you to make both attempts as 1 immediate action. This ability does replace Stunning Fist.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Ideas on 2nd trait, level 9 and 11 feats? etc?

Well here's what I was able to draft up that's kind of in the spirit of what I'm wanting the character to be. Any suggestions and any thoughts on the two free feats at 11th level?

Class – Monk 6 (Flowing Monk/MotSM) | Fighter 4 (Polearm Master) | Cleric 1
Race – Halfling
Deity – Arqueros (domains: Cooperation & Tactics)

Traits -
* Tianjing Temple Guard – +1 trait bonus on AoO with polearms
* FREE

Stats -
Str: 13 (-2 race)
Dex: 17 (+2 race)
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 9 (+2 race)
Points Spent: 7, 7, 5, 0, 5, -4

1) Monk 1: Bab +0, Combat Reflexes (lvl 1), Nimble Moves (Monk)
2) Cleric 1: Bab +0
3) Monk 2: Bab +1, Weapon Focus: Longspear (lvl 3), Toughness (free)
4) Monk 3: Bab +2, +1 Dex
5) Monk 4: Bab +3, Crusader’s Flurry (5)
6) Fighter 1: Bab +4, Dodge (free fighter)
7) Fighter 2: Bab +5, Gliding Steps (lvl 7), Mobility (free fighter)
8) Monk 5: Bab +5, +1 Str
9) Monk 6: Bab +6/+1, Power Attack? (lvl 9), Improved Reposition (free monk)
10) Fighter 3: Bab +7/+2,
11) Fighter 4: Bab +8/+3, Risky Striker? (lvl 11), FREE (free fighter)

Successful AoO's make enemies flat footed till end of my next turn, making it easier for my allies and myself to hit them. Also should let rogues get sneak attack I believe? I can reflex to halve melee damage, +AC for standing still, +1 natural, +1 per enemy flanking, +1 from Dodge, +1 monk bonus, + Wis mod, & + Dex mod my AC should be pretty good.

Gliding steps lets me move and not get AoO'ed on 1st 5ft movement, or spend 2 ki and not provoke during entire movement when I need to retreat. I can also Gliding Steps away and circle around them to flank or get a better position. Crusader's Flurry lets me flurry with my longspear, making it more useful.

It's less of the moving enemies around and more of moving myself around, making enemies flat footed, and re-positioning enemies sometimes.

Honestly I think it would be fine to just be able to bull rush and reposition enemies of small and medium size. I mean 90% of what we encounter in PFS is medium humanoids. I appreciate the suggestion though.

Small sized race with longspear and Pushing Assault? Flowing Monk's "Unbalancing Counter" ability and "Redirection" seem pretty useful. Maybe a 1 level dip into Cleric and pickup Crusader's Flurry with a deity that uses Longspear? Any builds or feats that I should make sure to have in a setup like this?

Interesting archetype. I think I'm trying to go more towards the monks' "champion" in the past PFS scenario I played. I mean, the Goliath druid does give some great bonuses to grapple,trip,etc. but I'm thinking I'm not going to be able to squeeze most of the feats that I'd like to take into a class like that.

How about a Flowing Monk or Hungry Ghost Monk? If it comes down to it, I'm open to playing a medium sized race but prefer small if we can make it work.

A few feats I'm interested in are: Step up, Pushing Assault, Punishing Kick, Ki Throw, Spinning Throw, Sidestep, and Gliding Steps. I'm thinking of using a Longspear for reach while still being able to use unarmed strikes if necessary. I know the damage part will most likely be subpar, but I'm ok with that if someone can figure out a build that pushing enemies away and maintains reach or can dance around / follow enemies. The Ki Throw and Spinning Throw I'm not sure how effective / great they are but I found them interesting while reading the feats.

Let me know any thoughts / builds you can come up with to create this type of character.

From what I understand of the Underfoot Adept (halfling Monk archetype) the Underfoot Trip ability that increases the halfling's size over time only works for Trip attacks.

The mouser is interesting but I'd rather have a way to move my opponent around. I'll keep Mouser in consideration though as it lets you create flanking for all adjacent allies and has some other nice features.

I'm more-so looking to bull rush, reposition, and etc if possible to forcibly move my opponent around.

Hey all,

Was wondering if anyone had some ideas on how to build a small race that can either dance around enemies to get into position easily or move opponents (reposition, bull rush, drag, etc?) into a favorable position for myself and teammates.

I really don't know what combos, builds, etc to merge to make this fly well. But got to thinking about this setup after playing a PFS scenario where we went to a monk temple and fought their prized "champion" who danced around us, pushed people off the pillar, and had made reach with a longspear. Any thoughts / suggestions would be great. Race probably not a big concern, but mostly feats and some suggestion builds would be great! Thanks.

So at the moment, the best stats I can think of, for the Shelyn build, so far are 14str, 12dex, 12con, 12int, 19wis, 12cha. Between 13 and 14str is +2dmg also between 17 and 19wis is +1will save, +1atk, +1 4th lvl spell later on, +1social skills (conversion or heresy inquisition) & +1wis based skills.

I don't really want to dump Charisma below 10 and same with Int due to Exalted requirements and wanting to put some points in social skills to be a bit versatile. Feel kind of forced to get a +2dex/+2con belt to offset the low dex and con as soon as possible though.

Anyone have a better stat suggestion?

Anyone able to advise on better stats than above?

So at the moment, the best stats I can think of, for the Shelyn build, so far are 14str, 12dex, 12con, 12int, 19wis, 12cha. Between 13 and 14str is +2dmg also between 17 and 19wis is +1will save, +1atk, +1 4th lvl spell later on, +1social skills (conversion or heresy inquisition) & +1wis based skills.

I don't really want to dump Charisma below 10 and same with Int due to Exalted requirements and wanting to put some points in social skills to be a bit versatile. Feel kind of forced to get a +2dex/+2con belt to offset the low dex and con as soon as possible though.

Anyone have a better stat suggestion?

Depends on how much the Domain Powers are worth to you. If you're wanting to be a social character you can trade your 2nd domain for Conversion or Heresy inquisition to use Wis for some social skills if your Charisma isn't that high. If the domains aren't offering enough incentive then go with Bones Oracle. Bones Oracle only channels to control from what I remember so no varient negative channeling or channeling to damage.

Domains: Divine or Blood are good choices.
min/maxed Stats: 7str, 13dex, 14con, 7int, 18wis, 16cha
non min/maxed Stats: 7str, 12dex, 14con, 12int, 18wis, 14cha

I think you answered your own question there. Dump Str down from 13 to what you feel is tolerable and put that into Charisma. Swap Power Attack, Channel Smite, and Guided Hand with Channel feats or other feats that you'd like.

You can make due with 14 charisma, just use Eagle's Splendor right before a fight and you'll have 18charisma to Selective Channel 4 of your teammates from getting hurt.

Should it be a Channel/Debuff focus?

Just go off my build on Here

Adjust it accordingly on whether you want Scythe damage, to channel, or have high save DC's. Swap a few feats that you don't foresee using with Spell Focus: Necromancy and GSF: Necromancy. There you have it.

Eh thought I had something but I forgot how few feats you have to play around with. What I was going to suggest falls into the old cleric problem of having a lot of things you can do but not a lot you can do together. Urgothan build is fine then but you have a 2-3 turn set up for single kills which ruins the concept atleast for me. I'm assuming the main deal of the build is to use reach cleric tactics and pre cast touch spells into your scythe and deliver them for free using an attack of opportunity?

Yeah, start of day cast a touch spell into Scythe, after releasing the spell walk away and cast another spell into Scythe and let enemy provoke again by walking back into melee range. For Urgathoan build 1st round is standard: cast Divine Favor, move: draw Enlarge Person potion, swift: drink potion (Potion Glutton feat). 1 round should be enough prep time.

Shelyn build is definitely 75% more geared towards surviving though. Deflection subdomain gives Barkskin and few other useful spells. Love subdomain gives around 10 "Will save or block 1 attack as Sanctuary" uses. Plus it has the summon 1 lillend azata for mins per HD and Perma Protection from Evil at later levels.

If I took Channel Smite and Guided Hand on the Shelyn build I'd increase my attack bonus by +5....but that's 2 feats...maybe 2 feats isn't a bad price for +5atk though?

To be honest the urgothan build hurts itself going with the scythe instead of just touch attacks and you don't get much out of the weapon to make it that interesting. Shelyn build is nice and more appealing with the glaive and a few other tricks it gets out of the deity. I'd look into adding some channeling if it fits te concept well enough and would allow you to justify a higher charisma score.

For the Urgathoa build, the thought was to store a Persistent Ghoul Touch into the Spell-Storing Scythe earlier in the day. Combat breaks out, 1st round retrieve Enlarge Potion and swift drink with Potion Glutton. Enemy approaches and provokes AoO, I hit and release spell on them, next round Coup de Grace. That was mainly the idea with the build, x4 crit weapon & cdg auto-crits.

What 20pt stat array would you suggest for the Shelyn build?

Just realized for the Shelyn build that I could take "Focused Study" which would later give me 2 free Skill Focuses.

Anyone care to add some suggestions? Should I just skip the Channel Smite -> Guided Hand route for having a high atk bonus and threatening 10ft & dealing damage to instead just dump Str, increase Dex, and take Weapon Finesse to touch vs AC?

Even though I like the Urgathoa build with Ghoul Touch and protection from Negative Energy, I'm thinking the Shelyn build offers a lot more defense and in return being a better option. Should I dump str on the Shelyn build or change any of the feats?

Is your goal to be THE ultimate bad touch or one that is great with your style(s) presented? I'm not sure to discuss what you have or debate the "best".

Well, I'm asking which one seems better and if there's any minor changes that could help one or both of the builds. I'm obviously trying to employ reach tactics here & a spell storing weapon to deliver a debilitating or damaging spell to my opponent. I could focus on "touch" tactics but "reach" tactics are a better use of action economy and touching would put me in a spot to be full attacked possibly.

Secret Wizard suggested an option to make reach more viable but I think it'd end up turning more into a build geared towards channeling with a required 15 charisma (probably 7str, 14dex, 14con, 10int, 17wis, 15cha). It would cost 3 feats and wouldn't start being helpful till 11th level when Improved Eldritch Heritage is available to pick.

Really just wanting to know what people think of the two builds I listed and what they'd personally change / adjust to make it better.

*Bump* Anyone have some suggestions or improvements on one of the two builds I listed up top? Trying to figure out which one is better and if there's anything I should improve.

Actually aberrant increases by 5 at level 11th, by 10 at level 13th, and if you get a Robe of Eldritch Heritage you'd get the full extra 15 feet right there, which stacks with size increases and Lunge or Lunging Spell Touch.

Interesting, but I don't think I could fit this into either of my builds without losing Power Attack, dumping Int completely, or something else suffering severely. Also, for either I'd have a really difficult time to fit 3 feats in for the +15ft non-threatening reach. The Shelyn build requires 2 feats to qualify for Exalted to get the Permanent Protection from Evil & all spells from 1 domain (Defense) as 1/day spell like abilities.

*bump*

Wouldn't being a Conjuration Wizard with the Teleportation Subschool also work here? Swift action (supernatural ability) teleport seems pretty solid.

I'm not sure how it would work with telekinesis but I think it is still worth mentioning.

The "Shift" ability works as if using Dimension Door, so after you use it your turn ends.

The Chalice + Potion Gluttony combo is pretty hard on the action economy. It'd be a move action to retrieve the chalice, standard to charge it, and swift to consume then either a move action to store the chalice or drop it the next round. Unfortunately short of playing a Dhampir it seems to be the best healing work around for a negative energy channeling cleric. I'd just make sure you have a few spare chalices.

Actually you can charge it prior in the day as the Negative Energy has full effect for 24 hours in the water within the Chalice. You could even buy multiple Chalices (like 3-4) and Channel into each of them, store them in a Handy Haversack, and when you really need healing just use a move to retrieve and swift to consume. This would work a LOT better with Fey Foundling, but either way it's like having free Cure Wounds potions that scale with level.

You're right though, the Hallowed Chalices from Adventure's Armory & Death's Kiss ability from the Undead subdomain are the two best ways....unless your a Cleric of Urgathoa and have the Pallid Crystal necklace on which converts healing & inflict spells to heal the wearer, so long as the wearer is a worshiper of Urgathoa.

Ok, I've been messing around with a few different builds on the forums and on spreadsheets and I'm down to 2 final builds that I'm almost convinced are about the most interesting & fun Reach Bad Touch cleric builds.

This is for PFS and I'm starting at 6th level. I've lined out levels 1-12 but I'll be playing this character is PFS modules/arcs past 12th level though so I've added some consideration for levels beyond 12th.

The one thing I cringe about with the stat builds is dumping Charisma below 10 as our local PFS group likes to use Charisma to go off looks and I'm not fond of playing an ugly person lol.

These may not be the "typical" bad touch build ideas seen on the forums without Madness or Protean domains but I'm going for a +1 Spell Storing Weapon (starting at 6th lvl, I can get this now.) and using spells such as Hold Person, Persistent Ghoul Touch, Inflict, Slay Living, Harm, Bestow Curse, Enervation, or etc touch spells through the weapon. Both builds have reach starting at 1st level (Urgathoa has Potion Glutton, swift Enlarge Person).

Could really use some advice and suggestions Magda, Malag, Fruian, and/or anyone else. :)

UPDATE: Adjusted Urgathoa build to 13st and swapped Weapon Finesse out for Power Attack. Damage is much better and Coup de Grace with x4 Scythe would probably now kill even without a dmg spell stored in it.

To the best of my knowledge the Druid Animal and Terrain Domains are a Druid class feature unavailable to clerics (Separatist or not). Madness is definitely hit harder than the other two by the level penalty (are there any feats/traits to increase effective cleric level?) that said it's also stronger than tactics and I don't think the penalties are large enough to swing it in tactic's favor. Wolf would be strong if it were an option.

Yeah, Wolf was mainly what I was looking at. The free Improved Trip and the 3rd level trip as a swift action + other buffs made it look like a strong pick. If it is legal, a +7 or so flank bonus would be really great also. From the wording I don't really see anything that restricts it as Separatist says any domain that's not on the deity's list. The Separatist is supposed to be "different" or "heretical" anyways by having a domain that their deity wouldn't normally have.

Anyways, after messing with the build in favor of the Wolf domain I realized I was getting further away from my original concept and that Separatist is slightly hurting that also. I think I'm going to stick with the Undead and Blood domain. Blood domain offers some pretty useful domain spell choices (1 Magic Weapon, 2 Spiritual Weapon, 3 Vampiric Touch, 4 Divine Power, 5 Wall of Thorns, 6 Blade Barrier, 7 Mass Inflict Serious Wounds, 8 Power Word Stun, and 9 Power Word Kill). The domain abilities really suck but I kinda of feel like the 5th and 6th wall spells are worth it for the battlefield control.

My Feat Plan atm is:
1) Channel Smite
Human) Fey Foundling
3) Guided Hand
5) Potion Glutton
7) Spell Focus: Necromancy
9) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy
11) Divine Interference

Since I plan on playing this character in PFS arcs past 12th level I'm kind of tempted to pick 3 metamagic feats by 13th level so I could qualify for Spell Perfection at 15th. It would probably cost me my Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus feats though.

Any suggestions with the Feats?

It seems legal, but if the Wolf domain is able to be chosen as a Separatist then free Improved Trip feat & Pack Tactics would be incredible since the Scythe has the Trip feature and Pack Tactics would allow you to use your Wis mod instead of a +2 bonus when flanking, that's somewhere around a +6 to +7 attack bonus when flanking. With a Spell Storing scythe I should be able to Trip & deliver the stored spell once I confirm a hit also.

Maybe the Wolf domain is the best option?

Madness is probably stronger, but Tactics is nice if there's a particular ally who needs to go early in the initiative (i.e. the rogue). Madness has more of a 'bad touch' theme.

But is Madness better at a -2 Cleric level penalty? That's -1 from the madness touch penalty (Example: Level 10 Cleric uses "Vision of Madness" on an enemy and they receive a -4 penalty to 2 options and +4 bonus to 1 option instead of -5 and +5 due to the -2 cleric level penalty from Seperatist.)

The Tactics domain's ability "Seize the Initiative" really isn't affected by the -2 Cleric level penalty.

Tactics would allow me to go first a LOT more....but starting out at 6th level here with the saved PFS credit I have my Vision of Madness touch ability will do a -2/+2 debuff/buff. I guess Vision of Madness is also effective to buff one's self in combat (Atk or Saves, RISKY though) or even out of combat (Bonus to skill checks like knowledge & etc).

They both seem pretty good. Anyone else care to advise?

If taking the Separatist archetype for a Cleric of Urgathoa, what secondary domain would be best? It would cost me a feat to regain proficiency with a Scythe but I wouldn't be stuck with Blood domain, which appears to be 2nd best domain associated to Urgathoa.

The domain would be at -2 Cleric levels but I'm thinking maybe Tactics and Madness are the two best options? Which is better?

Primary Domain: Undead
Secondary Domain: Tactics or Madness at -2 Cleric level

Also, are there any better domains for a build like this (bad touch cleric)? Being able to pick almost any 2nd domain with Separatist what would you pick?

Anyone want to chime in on which option seems best? Outlined a lot of advantages of each deity (Shelyn, Urgathoa, & Fumeiyoshi) in last reply. Looking for some additional feedback to help me decide. :)

These where just suggestions based on what I take. I tend to play NG and do the worship a Ideal when I play as pleasing a God is just so boring. Plus this line:

Quote:

Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one).

Deities just seem to slow a Cleric Down.

PFS requires clerics to worship a deity so the ideals part would be nice but not possible here.

Maybe a Separatist cleric of Urgathoa may be best? Primary domain: Undead & Secondary domain: Madness (effectively level -2 progression). I'd have to spend a feat to get Weapon Proficiency: Scythe but it seems like a decent trade.

Few reasons why I like Urgathoa.
1) Necklace converts inflict spells to healing
2) Ghoul Touch added to Clerics list
3) Scythe is x4 crit
4) Potion Glutton (Move action draw potion, swift action drink, standard action cast a spell. Allows for Enlarge Person + Divine Favor buffs all in 1st round.)

I've thought about going with Fumeiyoshi or Shelyn (especially Shelyn since you can take Exalted prestige class with her. Can't with evil deities because requirements say your alignment must match deity's alignment.) Fumeiyoshi comes with a reach weapon already and Tactics domain. Lose out on Ghoul Touch though, also Inflicts spells and Negative Channels won't heal me which is a negative compared to Urgathoa. Shelyn has Love domain, pretty strong sanctuary effect, and some comes equipped with a reach weapon. Could do Separatist with her but Tactics or Madness domain seems pretty iffy as how someone combines that with Shelyn and her Love domain.

I keep thinking about Magical Lineage: Ghoul Touch & Persistent Spell Ghoul Touch being a 3rd level spell for a save twice or be paralyzed for 3+ rounds. That's 2+ rounds of coup de graces on an enemy. Hold Person is decent but Persistent Spell doesn't work on consecutive saves and allows for a save every round so IMO it's not as good as Ghoul Touch.

This is ultimately my thought process for a bad touch Cleric down to a few selections and they all seem good. I just can't tell which is BEST.

1) Shelyn - Lvl5 Separatist Cleric / Rest Exalted (domains: Love + X)
Deity spells added: Aspect of the Nightingale lvl1, Tap Inner Beauty lvl1, Charm Person lvl1, Charm Animal lvl2, Good Hope lvl4
2) Fumeiyoshi - Full Separatist Cleric (domains: Tactics + X)
3) Urgathoa - Full Separatist Cleric (domains Undead + Madness)
Deity spells added: Ghoul Touch, Ghoul Hunger lvl2, Plague Bearer lvl6

An Evil deity would give DR 5/Good with a 5th lvl Righteous Might spell. Advancing to DR 10/Good at 15th level which I plan to play PFS arcs past 12th level.

Taking Exalted with Shelyn gets Permanent "Protection from" my choice of 1 of the following: evil, chaos, or law. Can summon a lillend azata to aid for 1min per HD. Choice of 2 Calm Emotions or 1 Good Hope SLA a day. 1 domain and all domain spells are 1/day SLA's. At 12th level access to Plumed Blade (add Holy & Shock weapon abilities) for 4 rounds a day. That's a free +3 weapon enchantment for 4 rounds.

It's been difficult for me to weigh in on these as both Urgathoa and Shelyn come out near the top personally. Both have pages of lore to help add extra RP to my character. Fumeiyoshi has a tiny bit of lore but he's got Tactics, Reach, and x4 crit weapon.

I could really use some suggestions and some thoughts on the above. I'm adding 4 levels worth of credit onto my just turning lvl 2 character.